working on some new thoughts - Page 3

[JaneS]

Let's see... I've tried everything except VSL3!   

Custom Probiotics, along with countless other probiotics I tried, did nothing for me sad to say, waste of a lot of money.

Water kefir did nothing for me.

Raw milk kefir from the grains and also from the Body Ecology powder was most helpful for me at several glasses per day - I feel best on this or high dose probiotics everyday.  I like to eat 24 hr yogurt but it wasn't as helpful as kefir.

DS couldn't tolerate ferments or food probiotics at all - rashes and insomnia.

DS needed bifidobacteria hands down.  He tended toward loose and really smelly stools.  It wasn't until we finally tried Natren Life Start, and then Pharmax Neonate that both issues went away that taking all his food triggers out hadn't done.  He was intolerant (not IgE) to dairy (which is why I took out the Natren) but he tolerated the lactose in Neonate just fine.  It is recommended for dairy intolerant kiddos, I just wouldn't do IgE level.   We moved onto Mindlinx, on which he lost his dairy intolerance.  That one, and all other Pharmax, is completely dairy free.  We also use the Pharmax Intensive capsules which do not have FOS.  They are over 30 billion (more than stated label at time of manufacture) I think and never gone up more than one/day except when I had a stomach bug and several per day took care of it very quickly, that's the most I've ever done. 

High dose probiotics were the first step in helping me get rid of hay fever and my interstitial cystitis (which I wonder how much is a ph thing too? or gut flora metabolites?). I also like how probiotics are calming and you hardly have to use toilet paper at all.

[bluets]

jumping in here....  given that the latest estimates of bacterial cell counts in the intestine are about 100 trillion (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/307/5717/1915.abstract), this approach totally makes sense.  in order to even just nudge the microbial composition, you would have to use a huge load of probiotics, not just the regular recommended paltry dose.

we recommend VSL #3 at our clinic though i've never used it myself.

back to lurking :)

[Panserbjorne]

don't lurk!  I need you!  LOL!  yes, 100 trillion is what I'm basing this half baked theory on.  That and the research regarding intestinal flora and Th1-Th2 dominance.  To make a change it would require a significant push, and I'm not seeing that recommended by anyone.  There are still sticking points.  As I said, I'm just playing and developing thoughts at this point, but figured that someone here may have gone rogue long before I and done something similar.

Neuroscience has done some studies on shifting immune function/inflammation with probiotics in fact, their probiotic is called Th1.  However the amounts are still quite small-I think around 10 billion per capsule?  However I do like the product, it's just too pricey to meet all the probiotic needs.  People who are doing the super high dosing are reporting reduced anxiety, an overall sense of peace and excellent digestive function with a lack of need for much TP as Jane pointed out!  They also see absolute regularity, with stools that are well formed, possessing the right color and consistency.  The smell also changes.

The sticking point just seems to be that people can't comfortably jump that high without experiencing distress in terms of die off.  That's where my focus is going.  I don't want heavy metals being released into the system, or any increase in toxicity at all.  Assuming this could be the keystone.

[bluets]

Originally Posted by Panserbjorne 

don't lurk!  I need you!  LOL!  yes, 100 trillion is what I'm basing this half baked theory on.  That and the research regarding intestinal flora and Th1-Th2 dominance.  To make a change it would require a significant push, and I'm not seeing that recommended by anyone.  There are still sticking points.  As I said, I'm just playing and developing thoughts at this point, but figured that someone here may have gone rogue long before I and done something similar.

Neuroscience has done some studies on shifting immune function/inflammation with probiotics in fact, their probiotic is called Th1.  However the amounts are still quite small-I think around 10 billion per capsule?  However I do like the product, it's just too pricey to meet all the probiotic needs.  People who are doing the super high dosing are reporting reduced anxiety, an overall sense of peace and excellent digestive function with a lack of need for much TP as Jane pointed out!  They also see absolute regularity, with stools that are well formed, possessing the right color and consistency.  The smell also changes.

The sticking point just seems to be that people can't comfortably jump that high without experiencing distress in terms of die off.  That's where my focus is going.  I don't want heavy metals being released into the system, or any increase in toxicity at all.  Assuming this could be the keystone.

i have a love-hate relationship with Neuroscience :) -- i think they have a good adrenal product (AdreCort?) but it is overwhelmingly chemically stinky for my own nose.  but they've got great tests.  limited familiarity with the rest of their offerings. there's a holistic RN/herbalist in the clinic (which is a building that houses independent practitioners).  whenever anyone wants to go a route that requires Neuroscience testing, we just send them to the RN/herbalist.

i recall vaguely that my mentor (when he was just my HCP!) used to recommend activated charcoal and chlorella for those who were doing "stuff" that might involve detoxing.  and alpha lipoic acid too (can't remember why there; it has come up in another context, so i've been meaning to revisit it).   HOWEVER, i prefer clay.  so much so that i've got it in our "get out of town really fast" bag.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by bluets 

i have a love-hate relationship with Neuroscience  but they've got great tests. 

i prefer clay.  so much so that i've got it in our "get out of town really fast" bag.

yup to both!  good research, good tests, okay products. And I'll take clay over activated charcoal any day (and always have it on me!)

I have my purse that I carry and I swear I could handle any situation with what's in it-lol.  I, of course, have clay!  helped someone with an extreme allergy to bees one day at a park too.  Well, that and ledum.  LOL.
 

[FireWithin]

Originally Posted by deditus 

Way back when, in The Power of Probiotics thread, Goodpapa said to give bifidus until stool normalizes to babies having issues. I never did, I was scared (I gave the amount on the bottle of PBX, 5 billion cfus, maybe?), but I bet it would have made a world of difference if I had.

good to know.  I just started giving baby girl pharmax baby at regular amounts.  I will continue moving up.  I want this baby to start pooping again.

the lactose doesn't seem to be bothering her.

[JaneS]

Neuroscience Recolonize Th1 with Saccaromyces boulardii and other heavy hitters such as L. reuteri, L. rhamnosus and L. casei?  That looks interesting.  I'd like to know more about the strain origins.  Sacc boulardii didn't do squat for either of us.  Perhaps again, for me, the beneficial yeasts in kefir needed to be at very high doses?

FWIW I never really had bad die off only a few days of uncomfortableness.  Ditto DS.   He pooped like crazy for a few days but it was already firmer, better color and smell in a short amount of time. I have no idea what this means given so many people seem to experience die off and we didn't. 
Strange given our hx of mercury exposure.  Only when I took strong proteases did I have a bad reaction, like I was on speed and gut pain, I just backed off and started again very small doses.  I had to go slow with enzymes for DS too for same reason, major excitability.  But enzymes were key for us too. 

[True Blue]

We've taken Klaire Labs 100B forumula for a couple months in the past as we were still doing food trials.  I saw no difference at all.  No die-off symptoms, and no other changes.  The only results I got were from taking out the offending foods.  I have not tried it again since we have them mostly figured out, and was going to start again in a couple weeks (we are going away for a week next week so I figured the timing was bad now lol.)  I never went much above the 100billion dosing.

It's an interesting idea, and would certainly be easier to implement than any of the extreme diets.  But why exactly or how would it be better?  My understanding is that something like GAPS gives the intestines time to heal while consuming easy to digest foods. Would changing the gut flora really be enough to move that process around?

[Koalamom]

Oh my, I will totally mess up this thread by my comments as I find my kids and I are totally not normal when it comes to probiotics. I have only tried garden of life kid probiotics and primal defense and during that time I felt alright and it seemed to help a little with digesting gluten but cutting it out was best overall. My kids still had horrible rashes when taking it. Now I have always tried to get my probiotics from foods instead and I had no idea that my dd was having bleeding diaper rashes for months when she was first born and it was from my daily consumption of sauerkraut. I cut that out and it cleared up but she still had rashes all over her body, eczema type. I staretd eating more homemade 24 hour raw yogurt and during that time, she seemed worse. Eventually we cut dairy out 100% and the rashes cleared. I could never add back in much probiotics without a huge reaction. Eventually (recently) I took my dd to a energy naturopath and in just one visit, she did some cool energy work and my dd is fine with probiotics now. If I ramp it up too much, she does seem dryish on her skin, but I just stared her on clay and will see how that goes. But just with the energy work, she is totally different. So that may mess up the science theory here you may be looking for.

As for me, I still have to watch out for probiotics and I had the same energy work done and I went home and tried water kefir and it completely messed up the enregy work and it became a waste of money to even reset my body as there is some way more serious stuff going on with my body. I am try to clear up toxins now with the clay and we will see how I do with probiotics in the future.

PS- day 4 with the clay and the worst of the detox is over!

[Panserbjorne]

Should be.  All standard medical literature is in agreement that it takes 5 days for the cells to replace themselves in the gut.  In theory, gut healing shouldn't take much longer than that.  However as we have all seen, that is not the case.  Something isn't quite right because the studies are quite clear and are all in agreement with one another.  5 days.  Removing the foods is clearly not enough.  I have seen improvement in mood and function in a week on this protocol even with eating offending foods.

Not ready to say it's the answer, just that I always laughed at the 5 day thing. Until now.

How is it better?  Removing the diets is a crutch.  Sometimes a necessary one, but a crutch nonetheless.  You'd probably still get results faster if you removed them.  BUT, it's relying on an avoidance of foods instead of fixing the root of the issue.  Now, I'm quite clear that the point is removing the foods so the gut can heal....but how often do you hear that that happens?  Most people remove food  and then use a TON of supplements/alternative medicine etc. to heal the gut.  It can work, but it's a crapshoot and almost everyone has to juggle an endless number of variables to even feel better, let alone heal.  Then you have those than can't pin down WHAT they're reacting too.  This takes the uncertainty out (if it works.)

It also allows you to choose healthy foods if you want, but not have to live in fear of an exposure at a party.  It just allows a flexible mentality that is consistent with the ability to balance things and find wellness.

So, for an adult I'd still say you'd need to start at upwards of 300 billion to test the waters, moving up until you DID see a difference.  Again-theory at this point and I'm still playing with it!

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by bluebirdmama1 

Oh my, I will totally mess up this thread by my comments as I find my kids and I are totally not normal when it comes to probiotics. I have only tried garden of life kid probiotics and primal defense and during that time I felt alright and it seemed to help a little with digesting gluten but cutting it out was best overall. My kids still had horrible rashes when taking it. Now I have always tried to get my probiotics from foods instead and I had no idea that my dd was having bleeding diaper rashes for months when she was first born and it was from my daily consumption of sauerkraut. I cut that out and it cleared up but she still had rashes all over her body, eczema type. I staretd eating more homemade 24 hour raw yogurt and during that time, she seemed worse. Eventually we cut dairy out 100% and the rashes cleared. I could never add back in much probiotics without a huge reaction. Eventually (recently) I took my dd to a energy naturopath and in just one visit, she did some cool energy work and my dd is fine with probiotics now. If I ramp it up too much, she does seem dryish on her skin, but I just stared her on clay and will see how that goes. But just with the energy work, she is totally different. So that may mess up the science theory here you may be looking for.

As for me, I still have to watch out for probiotics and I had the same energy work done and I went home and tried water kefir and it completely messed up the enregy work and it became a waste of money to even reset my body as there is some way more serious stuff going on with my body. I am try to clear up toxins now with the clay and we will see how I do with probiotics in the future.

PS- day 4 with the clay and the worst of the detox is over!

no, you're proving my point exactly.  Most practitioners with people like you wouldn't GIVE probiotics because of the reactions.  So you were balancing 45 other things as a result.  It's my hope that in cases like yours the clay will help to bypass that.  It will still take some time to find out how much clay (and yay on the day 4!  That's what I saw too-well played.)  Once you get to a decent amount you should be able to add the probiotics with no ill effects...but you're one I'll be watching!

[Koalamom]

So what is it that makes people intolerant to probiotics?
Or on the flip side, no reaction at all? Are we supposed to react?

[Panserbjorne]

the apparent intolerance can be a few things.  I believe that in general it comes down to the fact that you're detoxing too fast for your body.  This can be for a variety of reasons.  It can be yeast, it can be metals, it can be parasites...it can be a sluggish liver.  It can be that phase one detox is too slow, or too fast and phase two is too slow.  This is oversimplifying it, but that's the deal as far as I can tell.

People who aren't seeing anything are either clearing things really fast (yay!), or aren't making a dent.

So if your flora is off you should react via bowel function.  If it expresses in a different way then you're releasing more toxins than you can handle, regardless of the reason.  That means you need something to remove those toxins, preferably before they reach the liver.

Again, these are my thoughts.  We'll see how this plays out.  I'd love to hear what ya'll are thinking!

[Theloose]

So get clay on board, then 5 days at the max dose of pbx (likely ramping up) to feeling better and a while longer to be stable and able to back off?  Where do I order the pbx?

I'm thinking about the kiddos...  I can get anything into ds (11mo) right now, and anything that will hide in sweet potatoes or chocolate pudding or applesauce into dd (4yo).  How does this extrapolate to them?  And does it make a difference to do them at the same time as mama, or before, or after?

[bluets]

bluebirdmama - ditto to what PB said. 

the book "bacteria for breakfast", in the section/chapters of "selecting a probiotic" mentions that there have been clinical trials using trillions of CFUs of probiotics - sadly, no concrete references that i could immediately see (in the 30 seconds that i looked in the book).  

random thoughts here.  for a given dose, one could expect that it would have several results: (a) too high for some, leading to miserable die-off, causing the candidate to dropout of the study prematurely; (b) not high enough for others, leading to ineffective result; (c) just right, leading to expected conclusion without miserable die-off.  anything else?

i can take a peek through the literature databases at work tomorrow just to see if there have been any that report more than a small handful of candidates in either (a) or (b) - because i'm curious to see if "trillions of CFUs" have in fact been used successfully, and that level just isn't reported well.

Probiotics Revolution (Huffnagle's book) has a listing of probiotics (with some science behind them) and, at hte time of its printing (which is i don't know when), VSL#3 was the highest CFU count in his list.  450billion per capsule or packet or whatever.

[Panserbjorne]

once you hit the "sweet spot" of the correct amount of probiotics and clay then in theory within five-seven days you should be seeing a serious difference.   However let's be clear that that doesn't mean 5-7 days from starting the protocol.

So, yes.  Once you have the right balance five days to a healthy gut lining and a bit longer before the colonization is correct and can sustain itself.   It means that once you have changed the pH to a more favorable number and the gut can start repair it should only take about a week.  No eta on the length of time it takes to get there....and it will vary from person to person, most likely based on the severity of symptoms, history etc.

I have one kiddo where I was able to evaluate the difference in a shocking way.  Now, we're not there yet, but within five days his physical appearance was different, his smell (you know that smell that kids/people get when there's an overgrowth...that sweet breath?  gone.)  And his irises which had gotten muddy showing there was an issue in the intestines started brightening up.   That's something you can't fake.

I just did a major dietary cheat as did my dh and there was absolutely no reaction.  Now....that means very little as we're two people....but it was big.  I'm not nursing a little one so I can't say if there was a minor reaction that would have trickled down.  But I'm seriously hopeful.  I have one mama with a tiny baby who has multiple sensitivities starting and we'll see what happens with her since she's currently off about a thousand foods.

[Theloose]

So once you've played with implementing this with enough of us to know that it's working, and well...  There will be no more need for an allergy forum cause everyone will just do clay and pbx and be done with it?  No more head banging? :lol  or is this just for us gut folks as opposed to the metals or lyme ones?

[Panserbjorne]

no, lyme is very different sadly.  metals...I don't know.  improved nutrition makes a huge difference there, so maybe?

Who knows!  Part of me says it can't be this simple.  The other part says why not?

[Theloose]

only one way to find out...

[FireWithin]

I am loving this conversation.

So what do we do for the Littles? ebf babies or older babies and toddlers who can't get clay into them?

I doubled the baby probiotics.
She is not miserable but I want to support her. She wanted to get to sleep but couldn't and her belly was a little grumbly.

She hasn't (yet) pooped in 4 days. I do think thevprobiotics will help with this.

I increased some cell salts: she badly needed mag phos and needed calf phos and bat phos (but interestinngly enough not 5 phosphates).