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just forget it

post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 

I think it is hard for people to understand that I eat meat but am against dairy. I keep finding it really hard to stick with this and then beat myself up when I "give in". Logically it makes no sense to me to consume another animals breast milk. I also am sickened by the dairy industry as a whole and do not feel we, as humans, should be consuming any animals milk.

 

Anyone have any hard facts on why dairy ect. is unhealthy for humans?

 

Does anyone else share my views or am I crazy? Lol

 

What do you use as motivation in a very pro-dairy nation (US) to just say no?

 

Also when I am out and about it seems to be so unavoidable. Dairy is in everything! (and in everyone's house) Do you just eat it when you are out? (That's what I have been doing, I never buy any for at home though)

post #2 of 42

I guess the question is, what are your reasons for not eating dairy?  

 

post #3 of 42
Thread Starter 

Right. Well at first it was b/c DD was intolerant to it. Recently she seems to be getting better, but we don't have dairy in the house.

 

I feel like the cows are completely mistreated unless of course it's a local farm. I think it's to drink another animals breast milk though. I don't see why we need to or where that idea came from. No other species does that.

 

Also having to keep impregnating them to get the milk...IDK I guess since I started BFing it struck a cord with me like wait a min, what if they did that to us as oppose to the cow? I mean that's crazy to be impregnated all the time and lactating all the time and hooked up to breast pumps for hours.

 

I could absolutely never drink milk. It's more like when we are out and there is ice cream cake or something with cheese on it ect. Or if I grab a coffee and didn't bring my creamer...

 

My father worked on a dairy farm for a living growing up. It's not as if it is foreign to me. I just don't understand why we farm animals for milk that is suppose to feed their babies. 

 

What is also hard is some expense of some things I buy like Daiya and Earth's Balance and the Tofutti products. I am also concerned about soy now b/c I fear contamination with GMO soy. Tofutti claims to be GMO free though.

post #4 of 42
I love milk but am very allergic, I just cant have it. But If I could I would never buy and dairy unless it was from a farm I knew. Not just a local organic farm. My dh worked for several organic valley, etc dairy's and they were abusive to the cows and they said it was cause they were large scale and they had to to handle the cows.

I think that just as eating meat, people that had little food in some areas had to rely on it to survive. Is it totally weird to drink a different species milk? I just got am email of a story of a woman who rescued a squirrel and it nursed with a new litter of puppies. A friend that had no money was done brestfeeding her son and had rescued some newborn puppies actually nursed her puppies. To keep them alive.

And the idea that cows don't want to be producing milk all the time and just for their young for a few months is wrong. My dh works now for a grass fed beef meat farm and they let the mama cows give birth out in the fields and don't have any contact with the babies except to put hay out in the field feeders every day. The baby cows are a year now and they are like wild animals and guess what, they are still nursing on their mamas even though some of them were over 900 lbs (year old babies)

Not sure if any of this is helping but I do consider dairy a great nutrient of you can tolerate it.
post #5 of 42
Thread Starter 

I don't understand the producing milk statement. I never said they only nursed their babies a few months (I have no idea how long) All I said was they make the milk for their babies just like humans, monkeys, giraffes, ect. I don't see why we steal their milk so we can drink it.

post #6 of 42

sosurreal, I'm not in the mood for explaining this right now but I too am against interspecies milk but not against meat (though I am against factory farming, period).

 

However, I'm a hypocrite. I do consume milk (cheese, actually). It's something I continue to think about.

 

Personally, I would not bother to explain my rationale to anyone except someone who might be genuinely interested. I'd claim dairy intolerance, if I didn't consume dairy and needed to explain it. I have not found it worthwhile to explain my moral choices, since it seems to do nothing but motivate people to defend their choices. I'd rather just say "dairy intolerant" and have people go on their merry way than to have people digging in their heels explaining to me why dairy is a moral choice.

post #7 of 42

I have just switched over to raw cow and goat milk from a local farm.  I thought I had done a great thing and then I read that even small local farms take the calves away to be bottle fed.  This info is seriously making me re-think dairy altogether.  Can you relate to how I feel?

post #8 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessedwithboys View Post

I have just switched over to raw cow and goat milk from a local farm.  I thought I had done a great thing and then I read that even small local farms take the calves away to be bottle fed.  This info is seriously making me re-think dairy altogether.  Can you relate to how I feel?



Yes, our wonderful, local, raw dairy farm, with cows on pasture and glorious life as it should be - separates mother and baby within 24 hours. I hate it. And this is the "good" farm life.

post #9 of 42

.

I don't have much to add, other than the fact that this is not true

 

Quote:
  No other species does that

There are plenty of stories out there of mamma animals who have nursed orphaned animals, like this

There are dogs who have nursed kittens, cats who have nursed puppies etc etc.  And, I know if I make milk available to them, my three cats and my 2 dogs will happily lap it all up.  I have even caught them "cleaning up" drips of my breast milk from a bottle. 

 

Most animals will happily consume the milk of another species, given the opportunity.  The reason you don't see it as often is because the opportunity isn't there all that often, not because it won't provide nutrition for the animal.

post #10 of 42

That is true, but it's voluntary, it doesn't involve the taking away of the nursing mother's child for this purpose (maybe she lost her own but that was not done for the purpose of her nursing another), and it doesn't involve the alarming change in species that would lead to difficulty in their very survival (milk cows have been bred produce so much milk that they could not SURVIVE if they only nursed their calf; that is very disturbing to me).

post #11 of 42

OP, just out of curiosity, do you eat only meat that you or someone you know has killed? Do you eat meat that is locally grown or 100% hormone free? I noticed that a big part of this is pressure from social situations to eat dairy products that you are against? When you are out and someone is serving pepperoni pizza, do you eat that? My thought is just that no other species processes the hell out of their meat either. They also dont pump animals full of hormones so that they can get the biggest chicken breast in the world.  Somehow Im not seeing the justification for meat over dairy being that you arent "stealing the milk that is supposed to feed their young". When you eat them you are killing them. How is one better than the other? Personally, Id rather be stolen from than killed.

post #12 of 42


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

Right. Well at first it was b/c DD was intolerant to it. Recently she seems to be getting better, but we don't have dairy in the house.

 

I feel like the cows are completely mistreated unless of course it's a local farm. I think it's to drink another animals breast milk though. I don't see why we need to or where that idea came from. No other species does that.

 


 

Just wanted to point out that the argument typically is that no other species drinks breast milk past infancy (or what we often consider childhood). So while you may see a cat nursing a puppy you won't see a cat nursing a full grown dog. If you want more arguments against google not milk and you should get some links. But like a previous poster said the best thing to do in a social situation is claim an intolerance or allergy..people typically are not going to argue or be offended (or threatened) by that.

post #13 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post

OP, just out of curiosity, do you eat only meat that you or someone you know has killed? Do you eat meat that is locally grown or 100% hormone free? I noticed that a big part of this is pressure from social situations to eat dairy products that you are against? When you are out and someone is serving pepperoni pizza, do you eat that? My thought is just that no other species processes the hell out of their meat either. They also dont pump animals full of hormones so that they can get the biggest chicken breast in the world.  Somehow Im not seeing the justification for meat over dairy being that you arent "stealing the milk that is supposed to feed their young". When you eat them you are killing them. How is one better than the other? Personally, Id rather be stolen from than killed.


 

I am very careful of what meat we do eat,(always hormone and antibiotic free and only grassfed beef) but can see your point. However religion ties into that for me and even though I hate the system for what they have done to meat and industrializing it, I do still believe we are suppose to eat meat. If I had more money I would strictly buy pastured meat from farms and I do pray for forgiveness for not being able to do this. I try the best I can with what I have. I do know The Bible does mention milk, butter, and cheese from a variety of species as well...

 

Also I did not know other animals will nurse a baby of another species, but as PP said that also is not a full grown dog nursing. In the US everything is drink your milk, eat our cheese, dairy dairy dairy. There are like HOW many cows being milked daily for human consumption? It is scary not to mention how much waste and pollution these cows make (not by choice obvs).

 

Another PP said the pizza comment yes I do just suck it up and eat the pizza...I like cheese, so it is hard, but I want to really commit to it KWIM. I only get daiya for the house and what not and we buy 0 dairy products so at least we aren't contributing to it, but when we are over someone else's house it is hard to refuse their food. Everyone already knows me and a few years ago I had no issues with dairy and they know I don't have any intolerance issue. I did not know what the industry was like though and very dumbly thought cows just always made milk (what I was told) and did not know it was their breast milk and they had to get impregnated ect ect. When I found that out I changed my views a lot.

 

Now IDK if just severely limiting it to cheese or a little ice cream ect (esp for the kids?) is good enough...People keep trying to convince me it's fine and dairy is great and it won't make a difference if I don't eat it anyways b/c it is so big in the US.

 

 

ALSO I am not posting this to have a "dairy vs. non dairy fight" I posted it to see if there was anyone else who SHARED my feelings and what they thought about my situations ect ect

 

If you LOVE dairy that is your business and I am not trying to convince people to change their minds or anything in this post. Just so you all know.

post #14 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by seashells View Post

That is true, but it's voluntary, it doesn't involve the taking away of the nursing mother's child for this purpose (maybe she lost her own but that was not done for the purpose of her nursing another), and it doesn't involve the alarming change in species that would lead to difficulty in their very survival (milk cows have been bred produce so much milk that they could not SURVIVE if they only nursed their calf; that is very disturbing to me).



Yes, I agree.  My point was only that one species milk is just as nutritous as another's and that animals don't typically avoid the milk of another species because it's not nutritious. 

 



Quote:
Origi


 

Just wanted to point out that the argument typically is that no other species drinks breast milk past infancy (or what we often consider childhood). So while you may see a cat nursing a puppy you won't see a cat nursing a full grown dog.

 

 No, but if a puddle of milk of any animal ends up on the ground, most animals will lap it up, regardless of which species produced it.  Most animals will drink any fluid available to them (which is why we have to be sure to keep motor oil and paint thinner and such all up out of our pets reach.)

post #15 of 42
Well I had a full grown 6 yr old cat nurse on my dog. They were best pals.
post #16 of 42
Quote:
Everyone already knows me and a few years ago I had no issues with dairy and they know I don't have any intolerance issue.

 

I used to consume dairy ... but my state of health changed (2 separate issues => a lot of items that I have had to recently suppress from my "can eat/drink" list) so am now on an off dairy & off sugar diet .... it's much easier now that I've mentionned that I just can't have just any food as before (and for some people you need to repeat yourself).

 

You don't have to discuss your health issues with anyone except your doctor .... why can't you just say "No, thank you, I cannot have this, something to do with some health issue"

 

Whatever your reasons for saying "no", just say "no" .... your state of health might have changed and is not especially other people's business (or if it used to be, that can change, you might become unwilling to share much about the subject from now on ...)

 

I know, sometimes it's odd (I've had to bring some packed lunch last week-end and was eating from a box standing in a parking lot between errands) but once you've practiced saying "no" regularly it becomes easier (I grant you that my situation might be easier since I'm visiting someone who also as a "can't eat this or that list"... a different one from mine ... & when I received this person in my home lately, I was very accomodating ... so am now feeling very "accepted" in their home since I can prepare my own stuff when I need to ... => when you know other people with the same issue of "off foodstuff", it feels less weird to just say "no, thanks; I can't have this")

post #17 of 42

We have a couple of dairy goats that we use mostly for milk for our family (we sell any excess if we have a buyer).  We don't separate the kids from their mothers except for overnight, and then only after the kids are two weeks old and are eating grain and hay as well.  This means we only milk once a day (morning), and the kids' nursing takes care of the evening milking for us.  The does will wean their kids on their own, usually around 7 months when they get bred again.  Just FYI.

post #18 of 42

humans (and other mammals) have been consuming inter-species milk for thousands of years - domestication for milk is nothing new, very far from new

 

I find it highly hypocritical to eat flesh and have a problem with milk.

 

problem with production is not the same as problem with consumption

 

post #19 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirogi View Post

We have a couple of dairy goats that we use mostly for milk for our family (we sell any excess if we have a buyer).  We don't separate the kids from their mothers except for overnight, and then only after the kids are two weeks old and are eating grain and hay as well.  This means we only milk once a day (morning), and the kids' nursing takes care of the evening milking for us.  The does will wean their kids on their own, usually around 7 months when they get bred again.  Just FYI.


See this is the right way to do it, but this is also rare.

post #20 of 42


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

humans (and other mammals) have been consuming inter-species milk for thousands of years - domestication for milk is nothing new, very far from new

 

I find it highly hypocritical to eat flesh and have a problem with milk.

 

problem with production is not the same as problem with consumption

 

 

This.  I'd guess that, if given a choice, mama cow would rather have her milk "stolen" than be killed and eaten.

 

Do you know why cows are revered in India, and other cultures?  It's because of their milk.  It's literally life giving, especially in countries where food is scarce.  Actually, I just a letter in the mail from a charity I donate to, who's purchasing large quantities of powdered whole milk for Finland (I think it was Finland) to give to children in places like Haiti.  One girl they spoke of was 1 year old and weighed 7 pounds.  She's a healthy 2 year old now, due in large part to the daily milk that the charity provides.  I guess it's all well and good to pontificate about the morality of milk consumption in the West, but try to remember that it's literally the difference between life and death in some places. I'd also wager that this is why there's a long history of milk consumption and domestication of dairy animals.  When food is scarce, milk will keep you going.  Using an animal for milk also provides nutrition for a much longer time, and for more people, than killing it for meat does.

 

We drink the milk of other species because it's an extremely nutritious, nutrient dense food; it's a nearly complete food.
 

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