What do you do when your child refuses a request? - Page 2

[beebalmmama]

I second Kurcinka's books! They were really helpful for us with ds this past year. Honestly we should re-check it out from the library for a refresher.....ds .5.5 yrs had a doozy last night!

I also agree if you think he can put the outerwear on and he's just choosing not to, then let the school deal with it when the time comes. Maybe he will surprise you. Also the indluence of other kids and their abilities may influence him for the good in this respect...
 

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

Have you read Kids, Parents & Power Struggles by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka? It's a good book and might help you.

There's also a good technique from Anthony Wolfe's Secret of Parenting that he calls "waiting for the bus". In the example with the socks, if he'd refused, I would have said "socks go down the chute. They don't belong in Daddy's spot." Then you wait. Patiently, calmly, boringly. As if you're waiting for the bus and don't have anything else on your mind. 9 times out of 10, they'll do it. In the 10th time, I'd probably ask (after 5 minutes or so): "Daddy doesn't want to sleep with your dirty socks. What can we do about this?" and let him answer.

The self-care stuff is harder - both of my kids went through a stage around 5 where they COULD get dressed, but didn't really want to do it by themselves. I found it easier to help then to fight about it. If you know he CAN put his outerwear on, that's all you need. Let the school fight that battle when it comes to it. They both came out of that stage right around 6.

Finally, is he competitive at all? Sometimes it works for me to ask my kids to race me -- can you get your boots on before I finish brushing my teeth ?

[ssh]

Originally Posted by quelindo 

Well, I guess I should mention that we're planning on sending DS5 to school soon, so I need to know that he can put his outerwear on by himself (and also wipe himself after pooping, but that's another story). We've been unschooling up until now, and yes, this will be a huge change for him and yes, the timing is probably bad what with a baby joining our family three months ago. He doesn't yet know that we're definitely going to do it, just that we've toured the school (with him) and we're thinking about it.

Hopefulfaith, I can totally see DS5 thinking his teacher is offering him a choice, too. He is always saying that he knows better, that he knows more than we do, etc. I wanted a confident child, but now I want it notched down a little!

Kids usually save their most trying behavior for their parents. So your DS will probably behave more politely for his teacher. Also the preschool and kindergarten teachers I've seen will help kids with their outer wear and I've seen kids helping each other in my DD's preschool class.

I also loved Kurcinka's books. Kids, Parents & Power Struggles is my favorite followed by her Raising Your Spirited Child.
 

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom 

First thing is, I don't make any requests unless I'm OK with hearing "No".  If it's a requirement, it's a requirement, and consequences follow if it's not done.  If it's something they have a choice with, *then* it is a request.

For the boots and jacket thing?  If he does not feel like putting his outerwear on, he can stay in (or go out and be cold, if you'd rather that be the consequence).

We do not do UP.  And are on the stricter side of discipline, so we did have battles of will, but when they were much younger.  I do think it's going to be harder on you because of his age and because if you do decide to establish consequences (not threats), it's going to be a huge change for him and he's not going to like it one little bit.  I believe you can make some positive changes, but it's going to be really intense--you will have to be firm, consistent, and stay very calm. 

I think this is excellent advice. I understand not feeling comfortable with "threats", but if you actually follow through then it's not a threat...you're just requiring certain good behaviors and if your child doesn't comply, there are consequences. The truth is, no matter what parenting philosophy you follow, there's a time where it comes down to the fact that they are the child and you are the parent--- ultimately, you are the boss.

I have seen certain gentle discipline tacts used on children...trying to explain how their behavior makes you feel so the child will choose to make the right decision, trying to offer all kinds of different "choices" so the child feels empowered, etc., and in the cases where I've seen this applied, it more often than not hasn't worked. Five years old is very young in a lot of ways....I think sometimes parents can over-estimate their kids' capacity for reason and empathy in every situation. Sometimes the child just wants compliance...he wants to do what he wants to do and doesn't want you to stop him, or he wants YOU to do what he wants you to do. If this is unacceptable to you, you are the only one who can stop it. I've seen a parent try to lecture a child to death and pullwhat amounts to elaborate guilt trips (which fail, btw) in order to get the child to empathise and make the rigth decision. I've seen the child in this scenario, I've seen his eyes glaze over and I've thought that, honestly, if I were that kid I would much prefer an "archaic", efficient "because I said so". That's clear and it's something the child understands. I think that sometimes we put far to much pressure on our children to just KNOW how to behave well when really they need our guidance and they need and want our firm, clear limits. They want consistency because it makes them feel secure, even if, in the moment, they may not enjoy the consequence. Does that make sense?
 

[luvkadcla]

I am so thankful for this. I don't have enough time right now to read all the replies but I hope we can get help for our 5 year olds. Maybe 6 (March 18th) will be a better year. I do know if there are any conflics in the family it will show up in her behavior.

[Just1More]

My oldest is almost six, so we don't know how my kids are going to turn out yet, lol.  However, my observations thus far have been that I can do everything I can to make the scenerio perfect for my kids, but when it comes down to it, I have to make them do whatever it is.  I cannot coddle or manipulate them into being what I hope them to be.  I can be patient, but I must be firm and, most importantly, clear.

[NellieKatz]

I agree with this. I have noticed this in our own parenting. Some parents (like us) get MAD at their kids when they misbehave and other parents don't. I question ....why do we get MAD. (whether or not we show it aggressively). I question where the emotion comes from. (I question things all the time like this). I ask: What assumption is under the anger? And the answer I've come to is that we get mad when our son doesn't behave because of many things. One is, he's making things harder for us. Two, we're afraid for what it means if he doesn't learn or obey the thing in question and Three, we must be assuming on some level that he is supposed to KNOW how to behave and that his "failure" to do so is somehow willful. Ugh! I've said to my husband (once I realized this) that we get mad because he's making us have to parent effectively. It's much easier just to bark orders and expect obedience. In our own top-down authoritarian childhoods maybe, but not in our son's. He is not being raised that way, and that is why things get difficult. And if we want to do a good job, it's going to be difficult. There's no reason to get ANGRY at a child.....because the anger assumes he's supposed to know the easiest, most effective and logical thing to do. He's a KID. He doesn't always know that, and that's what we have to work with. We are called to firm with him but not mad and full of threats and all that, because it is our job and privilege to teach him right from wrong, and how the family rules work, and all that. I have to remind myself of this constantly. He is under no obligation to make my job easy for me. If I put in the hard parenting work, only THEN will it become easier for me. Took me a while to figure that one out.  :-) I am a slow learner sometimes. 

Originally Posted by coffeegirl 

. I think that sometimes we put far to much pressure on our children to just KNOW how to behave well when really they need our guidance and they need and want our firm, clear limits. They want consistency because it makes them feel secure, even if, in the moment, they may not enjoy the consequence.

[acupuncturemomma]

Originally Posted by NellieKatz 

I agree with this. I have noticed this in our own parenting. Some parents (like us) get MAD at their kids when they misbehave and other parents don't. I question ....why do we get MAD. (whether or not we show it aggressively). I question where the emotion comes from. (I question things all the time like this). I ask: What assumption is under the anger? And the answer I've come to is that we get mad when our son doesn't behave because of many things. One is, he's making things harder for us. Two, we're afraid for what it means if he doesn't learn or obey the thing in question and Three, we must be assuming on some level that he is supposed to KNOW how to behave and that his "failure" to do so is somehow willful. Ugh! I've said to my husband (once I realized this) that we get mad because he's making us have to parent effectively. It's much easier just to bark orders and expect obedience. In our own top-down authoritarian childhoods maybe, but not in our son's. He is not being raised that way, and that is why things get difficult. And if we want to do a good job, it's going to be difficult. There's no reason to get ANGRY at a child.....because the anger assumes he's supposed to know the easiest, most effective and logical thing to do. He's a KID. He doesn't always know that, and that's what we have to work with. We are called to firm with him but not mad and full of threats and all that, because it is our job and privilege to teach him right from wrong, and how the family rules work, and all that. I have to remind myself of this constantly. He is under no obligation to make my job easy for me. If I put in the hard parenting work, only THEN will it become easier for me. Took me a while to figure that one out.  :-) I am a slow learner sometimes. 

 

THANK YOU for this post.
 

[MrsAprilMay]

Originally Posted by NellieKatz 

I agree with this. I have noticed this in our own parenting. Some parents (like us) get MAD at their kids when they misbehave and other parents don't. I question ....why do we get MAD. (whether or not we show it aggressively). I question where the emotion comes from. (I question things all the time like this). I ask: What assumption is under the anger? And the answer I've come to is that we get mad when our son doesn't behave because of many things. One is, he's making things harder for us. Two, we're afraid for what it means if he doesn't learn or obey the thing in question and Three, we must be assuming on some level that he is supposed to KNOW how to behave and that his "failure" to do so is somehow willful. Ugh! I've said to my husband (once I realized this) that we get mad because he's making us have to parent effectively. It's much easier just to bark orders and expect obedience. In our own top-down authoritarian childhoods maybe, but not in our son's. He is not being raised that way, and that is why things get difficult. And if we want to do a good job, it's going to be difficult. There's no reason to get ANGRY at a child.....because the anger assumes he's supposed to know the easiest, most effective and logical thing to do. He's a KID. He doesn't always know that, and that's what we have to work with. We are called to firm with him but not mad and full of threats and all that, because it is our job and privilege to teach him right from wrong, and how the family rules work, and all that. I have to remind myself of this constantly. He is under no obligation to make my job easy for me. If I put in the hard parenting work, only THEN will it become easier for me. Took me a while to figure that one out.  :-) I am a slow learner sometimes. 

 

What a great reminder.

[bluebackpacks]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom 

First thing is, I don't make any requests unless I'm OK with hearing "No".  If it's a requirement, it's a requirement, and consequences follow if it's not done.  If it's something they have a choice with, *then* it is a request.

For the boots and jacket thing?  If he does not feel like putting his outerwear on, he can stay in (or go out and be cold, if you'd rather that be the consequence).

Yep!

[bluebackpacks]

Originally Posted by NellieKatz 

There's no reason to get ANGRY at a child.....

 

I would note the difference between feeling angry and acting out of anger.  Parents shouldn't have to apologize for their feelings, nor should children.  Anger is an emotion.  Emotions are devoid of moral value.  Both saints and sociopaths feel anger... it is action that defines existence.  [End existentialist rant.]

[Krista4]

Hi, here's an invitation to read a post about making requests vs. making demands on others, which is what sounds like to me may be at the bottom of this scenario you describe.... http://connectionfirst.blogspot.com/

As far as the outer gear, my 5 year old still likes LOTS of help with this, too. It can be really tiresome and challenging for little hands to fasten all those buckles, zippers, boots and mittens....

My 8 year old still appreciates help too, but does most of it himself.

I am wondering if you are willing to explore why you are triggered by your son wanting your help, what thoughts or judgments you might be having about that.... do you think he "should" be doing this himself? That's where I always try to go when I'm feeling (insert negative feeling here) about my child's behavior.

Cheers,

Krista

[NellieKatz]

Krista! That blog post is AWESOME! It was so good that I read the whole entire thing even though the white text on dark background make the words jiggle and my eyes go buggy. It was seriously worth it!!

I have these thought-blips that amount to what the blog post said, but the post just fleshed it out so thoroughly and clearly,...I really appreciated reading it. And I will share it with my husband who also needs to know this.

Thanks.

[Krista4]

Ack! OK, it's settled, I will change the dark screen. I love green but my eyes kind of do that too. Thanks so much for the feedback about that and about my post. It's good to know it's been helpful. I was saying to a friend, I write these things mainly for *me*. *I* need to remind myself about this because I am so human and forget to live from my values and so often fall back to old conditioning.... It's great that by making my thoughts public, someone else may benefit as well.

[NellieKatz]

I respectfully disagree. I mean, I KNOW what you mean. But maybe it's in the fine print of the wording I chose. I said there's no reason to be angry. Maybe I should have said "there's no emotionally healthy reason to be angry at a child" (===>IN the situation under discussion, which is the kid "disobeying" or "misbehaving" or whatever. That is, not a willful aggressive act, but kids just being kids.). Obviously, you're right. Anger is anger. If we get angry, we get angry. The anger is "what is," and it is that reality with which we must cope. In that sense it is neutral. But I strongly believe that the anger we are talking about here is the base of so, so, so, much strife that I see on these message boards. Parents want to know how to stop hitting, they want to know how to stop yelling, threatening, feeling like they're about to blow......so my modus operandi is to investigate what's under the anger. And I maintain that it is our LENS through which we see what the child is doing which causes the anger. And it is that which I seek to analyze, cure, solve, whatever. I'm big into problem-solving. Changing the lens through which we see. Changing the paradigm if that is the correct word.

I think about this stuff all the time. You say anger is devoid of moral value. OK, maybe it's the expression of the anger that can have moral value? (or negative moral value?) Because frankly I do think it's wrong to get angry at a kid who's just doing the best he knows how because he's only been on earth for a handful of years. OK, you say, but I'm angry and the anger has no moral component. Don't you think so? Whether it gets outwardly expressed at the little one (unfair; scary for the kid; invites him to be aggressive back at you) or stuffed (which is self-destructive for the parent). Anger demands an outlet. It has a result; a physical toll. (I have recently become very aware at the churning stomach and racing heartbeat that anger or its suppression has caused inside my own body. And it's been long known that the outward expression of it just inflames my child.....but wait.....I am referring to UNFAIR anger, which brings me back to where we started)

So I guess if I were to get myself out of this word puzzle, I'd have to change my wording. There's no reason to be "unfairly angry" at a child. We need to put on our thinking caps. We need to be fair. We need to not take things out on the kids, when they have no idea what baggage we are carrying which causes our angry reactions. Obviously if a child comes over like a big jerk and decides he's going to stomp on my foot deliberately with the desire to hurt me, I will get angry and I won't apologize for THAT. Or if he looks at me to see if I'm watching and takes a hammer to my prized ceramic kitty-cat just to make me upset, you can bet I'll oblige him with upset. But in this post, I am talking about anger which is unfair. Thanks for working through this with me. I do so love to think this stuff to death.  :-)  If it weren't past midnight I'd probably think about it some more. And I'd probably make more sense! But it is time for sleep.....z-z-z-z-z-

Originally Posted by bluebackpacks 

I would note the difference between feeling angry and acting out of anger.  Parents shouldn't have to apologize for their feelings, nor should children.  Anger is an emotion.  Emotions are devoid of moral value.  Both saints and sociopaths feel anger... it is action that defines existence.  [End existentialist rant.]

[TexasMommaDi]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

There's also a good technique from Anthony Wolfe's Secret of Parenting that he calls "waiting for the bus". In the example with the socks, if he'd refused, I would have said "socks go down the chute. They don't belong in Daddy's spot." Then you wait. Patiently, calmly, boringly. As if you're waiting for the bus and don't have anything else on your mind. 9 times out of 10, they'll do it. In the 10th time, I'd probably ask (after 5 minutes or so): "Daddy doesn't want to sleep with your dirty socks. What can we do about this?" and let him answer.

The self-care stuff is harder - both of my kids went through a stage around 5 where they COULD get dressed, but didn't really want to do it by themselves. I found it easier to help then to fight about it. If you know he CAN put his outerwear on, that's all you need. Let the school fight that battle when it comes to it. They both came out of that stage right around 6.

Finally, is he competitive at all? Sometimes it works for me to ask my kids to race me -- can you get your boots on before I finish brushing my teeth ?

Exactly! My 4.5 year old loves to have me help him do things he is perfectly capable of doing...because he sees me do everything for the 2 year old, I think.

And the competitive thing works WONDERS for my boy! If he is digging in his heels on just about anything, we can say "I bet you can't do it by the time I count to X!" He loves to prove us wrong & give us high fives when he does.

Diane

Mom of 4