my son has ZERO interest in history/global/cultural studies... - Page 2

[tankgirl73]

When I was 8.5, I barely even understood that there was a country outside of my province, let alone a world outside of my country.

I had a vague notion that there was this other time, loooong long ago, waaaay in the past, outside of anything I could possibly imagine, when my parents were young and the Beatles were really popular.  

Kids at that age just physiologically don't have the brain development to REALLY understand the scope of history.  To them, 10 years ago vs 100 years ago vs 1000 years ago is all just "before I was around", the relativity, the relationship of one era to another is close to meaningless.  (This is something that has been researched and studied, in fact -- it's nothing to do with what kids have or haven't been taught, it's entirely to do with brain development).

Don't get me wrong, I think it's valuable to expose kids to historical stuff, but unless they're really interested (and some kids are), then it's just setting yourself up for frustration if you expect any kind of real analysis or comprehension of how the past affect present-day realities.  That sort of thing, honest, is at LEAST high school level and more often college level -- just because of the brain maturity required to make and understand those connections.

At this age, the focus should be on making it interesting, whether or not it's in any kind of systematic way, so that at least they're not turned off ever doing history because they're convinced it's dull and boring.  

So things like historical fiction are good.  Doesn't just have to be books, it can be movies too.  There are some neat comic books that cover history and mythologies as well.  But kids that age will be more interested in the STORIES than in the cultural relevance, dates, etc.  

Hands-on stuff -- something like History Pockets appeals to a lot of kids.  Gets some of the basic, a foundation, without getting bogged down in details.

At this age, history/social studies is more about fostering the gradual awakening of the realization of the world outside themselves.  Their world starts as 'just me' as an infant, then quickly to 'me and mom', then 'me and my family', then 'me and my neighbourhood', etc.  Their circle of understanding only gradually expands, and throw the concept of TIME in there and hooo baby it's a challenging thing to grasp!

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by umami_mommy 

yeah, i get this totally. my son however has not been made aware of this fact and totally not into mom or dad suggests/prepares/finds exciting... kwim? 

Maybe this is a stupid question, but how is unschooling working if your child isn't "into" anything you suggest or prepare?  I thought there were 2 parts to unschooling...the child's interests, and the parents preparing an environment based on those interests?  (If he's interested in space, for example, you'd make sure to provide him with opportunities to learn all he can about space)  I personally don't count video games as education and I'm more Montessori than unschooling (I totally believe in child led learning, but I also believe that adults  need to create a prepared environment).  Children this age *love* field trips...or at least most of them do.  If you're unschooling, I'm sure you know all about the history museums and cultural festivals in the area.  You don't have to tell him it's schoolwork, just take him.  And before you go, research where you're taking him and be prepared to discuss what he's looking at.  
 

[boheime]

Are you familiar with Rick Riordan? My kids LOVE The Last Olympians series and the second series with The Lost Heroes. It's fiction but has a lot of Greek mythology (and some Roman in the second series) woven into it. We had so much fun reading them together. My eight year old laughed through a large portion of The Lost Heroes. They jumped head in to Greek Mythology. We also just read the first book in his new series, The Red Pyramid. They've been on an Egyptian/archaelogy kick lately and so they loved it. We are always reading. You would be surprised how much history, sociology, etc. is in everyday life, including in fictional books.

We are also a boardgame family. We play board games that you usually don't see very often - mainly just in board game communities. Tons of fun and there are a lot with empires, maps, social structures, etc. Our kids love playing them. Sometimes we have to alter rules a bit to accomodate younger players, but that doesn't lessen the fun. A lot of questions have sprung from them.

Just like with science, math, language, etc., you can't really NOT be exposed to history if you are living in a society.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by AllyRae 

  I thought there were 2 parts to unschooling...the child's interests, and the parents preparing an environment based on those interests? 

I think that's more like unit studies. I never felt like it was my job to go around preparing an environment based on my kid's interests and reading up on things she might ask about. Unschooling is more about going on a learning journey together. I think it's important to be sure that a kid has the resources to follow his own interests, which you could do by offering or responding to requests or whatever.... but that's very different from the Montessori "prepared environment" idea. My kid has been pretty good at setting up her own environment, actually... I helped fund it, of course, and made suggestions, and sometimes i got stuff I thought was cool and he liked it, or I got stuff because I thought she'd think it was cool... but I didn't take her to festivals so that she'd be exposed to cultural stuff.

This is sort of a different situation, maybe, because the problem is that the kid may have to pass a test to keep legally homeschooling... although I don't think the OP ever clarified that bit.

[umami_mommy]

Originally Posted by boheime 

Just like with science, math, language, etc., you can't really NOT be exposed to history if you are living in a society.

i think maybe you might be surprised how many people are total blanks about history! and i think a big part of the problem is the *way* history is taught in schools. i know we learned almost zero about any history other than european and american. and even then we skipped over the "rough bits" like stealing indian land, imperialism, etc.... we most certainly didn't learn the history of *any* religion, asian, african or south american history. 

[umami_mommy]

Originally Posted by Dar 

This is sort of a different situation, maybe, because the problem is that the kid may have to pass a test to keep legally homeschooling... although I don't think the OP ever clarified that bit.

da. in NY you must start taking a standardized test every other year beginning in 5th grade. so there is a minimum standard he must achieve. but also, i am concerned about him being a very one sided person who only knows about the things that directly affect his everyday experiences. i'm not going to shove anything down his throat. there isn't any point anyway. i would just send him to school if i wanted to do that. he's just NOT INTERESTED. maybe i need to give him more time. but at almost 9, i am a little worried about when it's "gonna happen." (i know i know! my friend's son didn't start reading until 12 and now he's in HS and doing fine.... on track with all the other kids)

i have always had to do "stealth" homeschooling with him since his middle name is resistance and his nickname is no. so i think i need to think more about how he learns (very right brained builder boy) and how things interest him. DH brought home some software from work that allows you to create timelines. i think i will look more at that. 

[Dar]

Originally Posted by umami_mommy 

da. in NY you must start taking a standardized test every other year beginning in 5th grade. so there is a minimum standard he must achieve. but also, i am concerned about him being a very one sided person who only knows about the things that directly affect his everyday experiences. i'm not going to shove anything down his throat. there isn't any point anyway. i would just send him to school if i wanted to do that. he's just NOT INTERESTED. maybe i need to give him more time. but at almost 9, i am a little worried about when it's "gonna happen." (i know i know! my friend's son didn't start reading until 12 and now he's in HS and doing fine.... on track with all the other kids)

i have always had to do "stealth" homeschooling with him since his middle name is resistance and his nickname is no. so i think i need to think more about how he learns (very right brained builder boy) and how things interest him. DH brought home some software from work that allows you to create timelines. i think i will look more at that. 

Oh, yes. I missed if you had said where you lived before, but New York is tougher than most... on the other hand, you can pick the test and the district only cares about his composite score, not the individual ones, and even that only had to be at the 33rd percentile... so he could pretty much blow history and still be fine.

I think the idea that being "well-rounded" is optimal is pervasive, but I'm not sure that's true. Especially at 9... but plenty of successful adults are not particularly well-rounded. I might even say most aren't, really.  Most of us know a lot about a few subjects and a fair amount about others and very little about others, and it seems to work fine. Many people seem to develop other interests as adults, too - Bill Gates may be the most famous example, but his transition from computer geek to philanthropist shows that it's never too late... but I bet at 20 he knew very little about the countries he's now helping, and now he knows a great deal.

My personal opinion is that "stealth" unschooling isn't unschooling at all... I think being open and honest with your kids is at the heart of unschooling. I realize not everyone will agree... but that's my experience. At 9 my kid almost never wrote anything (unless you count birthday cards) and never did anything more mathematical than count Chuck E. Cheese tickets (this was before automatic counting machines) or keep score on board games. It worked out okay... she does both well now, and it came from her. 

I also think succeeding in unschooling, especially when kids are younger but really even now, means being involved in each other's lives. My daughter knows a lot about anthropology and Africa and Islam not because she really had any interest, but because I did, and do... so my stuff was in the house, and NPR was on the radio and I talked to her about those stories, and she came to parties and get-togethers with anthro people and talked with them, and went to events with African studies people because I was going, and she came to the Swedish ethnography museum with me because I wanted to go (and we went to 80 million art museums because she wanted to go, just FYI)... heck, she spent a month in Tunisia because I was heading there and she decided swimming in the Mediterranean sounded better than hanging out in Tucson during July. To me, unschooling is about doing things like that rather than trying to stealthily ensure that kids cover certain subjects. 

[Chamomile Girl]

Originally Posted by umami_mommy 

i think maybe you might be surprised how many people are total blanks about history! and i think a big part of the problem is the *way* history is taught in schools. i know we learned almost zero about any history other than european and american. and even then we skipped over the "rough bits" like stealing indian land, imperialism, etc.... we most certainly didn't learn the history of *any* religion, asian, african or south american history. 

Ay yai yai ...You think this is how all history classes are currently taught? Maybe in elementary school but I can assure you that high school history covers all of these things. Unless you have a crappy teacher.

[umami_mommy]

so chamo, why do you think most people are so ignorant about history? 

[umami_mommy]

dar, you have a very special child. and you are a special mom. 

i have some very difficult challenges with my son, he has lots of special (unique?) needs. when i say "stealth" i mean that i have to be very very careful to not let on that i have planned, thought about or care about what he is doing in any way. or it's an instant turn off for him. 

i'm interested in more ideas for brainstorming, interested in support and positive energy, interested in thinking outside the box... not reasons why what were are doing isn't "true" or "real" unschooling. 

[Dar]

Thank you, I think... I think she's pretty special, but objectively speaking I don't think she's some kind of sooper jeenyus kid, or anything like that, and I've done a lot of muddling along... but she's also always been pretty strong-willed and responded strongly and negatively to what she saw as coercion around her learning (i.e., when I or someone else seemed invested in the outcome, as you describe your son). It looks like you're dealing with that through these "stealth" tactics, whereas I decided that I needed to just let go of my investment in her being well-rounded or knowing certain things and trust that through unschooling, she would come to learn what she needed to. And... in retrospect I think it was a pretty successful strategy.

I don't think it's a matter of what is or isn't unschooling, as much as a matter of what your goals for your child are and what strategy is most likely to have those results. I think having to hide so much of what you're doing and planning and thinking and feeling is not sustainable, if it's even working for you both now, because unschooling is based on trust and stealth is antithetical to trust.

[boheime]

Maybe we just talk with our kids a lot?!? Really, I don't think a day goes by when history or social studies doesn't come up in conversation at some point. Where there probably are, but it's there in subtext underneath whatever we are talking about even if we aren't explicity talking about it. Our family is constantly conversing, reading, sharing, or doing something.

[umami_mommy]

my son isn't much for long conversations. KWIM. i do take every opportunity to take advantage of subjects at hand, but he's really *into* his world of legos and doctor who. 

DH and i were brainstorming ways to use legos in cultural studies last night. it's certainly something to think about. 

[boheime]

My kids love LEGOs, too.

In our family, we are always having conversations and our children are always learning (as are the parents). However, we aren't pushing an agenda. Topics come up because of genuine interest, so we discuss them. We don't look at what our children are into and then try to fit what we think they should know into those realms. Perhaps if you took a step back and just observed, you might realize he is learning a lot more than you think. We've been unschooling for a long time now. I'll amdit there have been times when doubts have crept in regarding whether I was doing enough on my part for my children. When those times have happened, I've sat down with my observations of what my children do during the day, loosely categorizing them as though I was expected to write a transcript. It's *always* been readily apparent when I've done this just how much my children are learning. If I were to do it for weeks on end, I could see a shift. Perhaps they would be doing a lot of science stuff, but then that would shift on its own and they would move on to math, or history, or music, or art, or whatever.

I agree with Dar about letting go. Unschooling is very much a matter of trust. If you are trying to sneak your own agenda in, it isn't unschooling. I don't say that to label it one thing or another, but unschooling techniques aren't going to work well for you. It may be better to look at some of the information on other homeschooling techniques to find some that will better help mesh your goals with your child's needs.

[umami_mommy]

i know, i'm an unschooling heretic. my kids have bedtimes too!! 

[Lillian J]

I agree with Dar. I provided access to and conversation about lots of things I found interesting and important, and things I thought my son would find interesting, but it wasn't a prepared environment in anticipation of a bigger or more focused study. That kind of thing can get a parent pretty frustrated when her plans don't ignite interest she'd expected, and it can be frustrating for a child to feel an agenda threading through everything - it can make him less willing, for one thing, to openly show an interest in things, because they can quickly turn into part of a bigger plan he really has no interest in. Unschooling is different for every combination of parents and kids - it isn't a set method of covering all the traditional school subjects in an efficient way.

I think the two issues presented by the OP make for more combined pressure than what's really necessary in order to meet her own goals. I'd find out exactly what knowledge is required by the authorities, and try to meet that in the most simple and minimal but pleasant ways. Meanwhile, I'd lightly introduce fun and interesting things that touch on the other goals without expecting to see a child that age get particularly interested in pursuing any of it beyond a basic nod or two. Or obviously those two things can just be combined and meet both the goals. But he has lots and lots of time ahead of him in which to begin to think of a broader span of time and events.

My son always found it amazing that there are people who are not interested in history - it was like chocolate to him - but he'd had his control over his exploration of it. I had made a few futile attempts to interest him beyond a certain point in things I found fascinating, but learned pretty early on that there was really no point in being annoying about it.  He grew up with a great knowledge of history from his own reading in his teens, and I think a lot of that grew from our early exploration of it together, but it really wasn't as if I had needed to teach him how to think things through - he grew into that quite naturally. Many years of school can somehow manage to pave over that growth, and lots of people don't really start to think critically until maybe their college years, but I there's more of it among homeschoolers in that they have so much more freedom and so much more casual two way conversational interaction.   Lillian

[stik]

Doctor Who is a great way to look at history! The most recent 5 seasons have dealt with a lot of awesome historical settings. The show has been to Victorian England three times and the Blitz twice. There was that amazing episode about VanGogh. And the one with Madame Pompadour. And a two-parter on the Great Depression and another on imperialism in t
20th century Britain.

It's a great opening!

[purslaine]

If you are interested in history and think it is important, he will pick it up through daily living.

I have some interests - and my kids do know about them simply due to conversations I initiate, books I read, radio programs I shush them over because I want to hear what is on, places i bring them to, conversations they over-hear between me and whomever.....

It has gone the other way:  I know more about guinea pigs and troubled hotspot in the world due to living with my children than I ever thought I would, lol.

He will learn it through living with someone who is fascinated by it.  He may not learn it today - but if you are interested in history he will have a good grounding in it through you living your life out loud.  

[Chamomile Girl]

Originally Posted by umami_mommy 

so chamo, why do you think most people are so ignorant about history? 

I wish I knew. Honestly I think that the type of history class you experienced was exactly how most people were taught in my generation (I don't know your age but I was in high school from 87-91, and my history classes were very eurocentric. And some were dreadfully boring) so no surprise that folks of my age and older are often ignorant. I think that younger folks have no excuse though because the way history is taught has changed a great deal. I teach tenth grade world history and pretty much the entire class is about imperialism in one way or another. I take it a bit farther than most teachers would in terms of stressing the damages done by the western world, but even crappy second-rate textbooks now feel its important to give a voice to everyone's experiences...not just those of Dead White Men. Its progress of a sort.

Does your son like Monty Python? There's a bit of history buried in there. I use the scene with Dennis the Peasant (in the Holy Grail) to teach basic Marxism lol. Although at eight MP might be a bit much?

[savithny]

We're in New York, so I know that curriculum.  (My kid is in school, sorry to barge, but I've had similar thoughts as I try to supplement the activities they're doing).

What about tying it into family history, however much you know of it?   So, for example, my grandmother was the keeper of family history, so we have stories and pictures, but even if you don't, you could tie it in?  Her family were half french-canadians and half New York Dutch and Germans, so when DS was learning about the Dutch in New Amsterdam and the French and Indian war, we were able to talk about how his great-great-great grandparents might have been involved, and how if history had come out differently, we all might (lead different lives, live someplace else, not even exist!).    The fact that my other grandma's family were from Virginia led to interesting discussions about slavery when we read the Civil War Era American Girl book with his little sister.   

I've found tying the "out there" things in the history curriculum to real people whose actions led to him being born where he was have been nice, concrete connections to different topics.  We talk about why people would leave the place they were born, what would have pushed them to leave everything they knew and never go back (religious differences and war!), what it would have been like, how they treated the people they met when they got here (Native populations and what happened to them).    I've pulled printouts of census reports from 1850-onwards so we can see "in real time" how ancestors were living ("wow, there were 9 of them, including 4 chldren under 10, in a log cabin, this says.   Imagine that!"), and then (as someone said above) he's read historical novels ("The Matchlock Gun" was one I hadn't heard of before but found in a used bookstore one day, and my mom found one about a young boy who accompanies his uncle on a trapping trip in Voyageur times).