Feeling very stressed - can anyone help?

[moonlitemama]

I've been trying to do the DR stuff for about 5 months now and I think I'm doing well as far as not having unneccessary expenses, and I've been trying to make a budget every month (something I'd never done in the past), but somehow I'm feeling more stressed rather than less.  I used to spend way more on groceries and misc than I do now, so how come I'm feeling like we have less to spend??  Could anyone look this over and give any suggestions?

Expenses:

Electricity - $220

Phone - $39

City Utilities (w/s/g) - $140

Credit Card 1 - $150

Credit Card 2 - $120

Rental Mortgage - $1140

Life Insurance - $70

Student Loan - $260

Internet - $45

Office Rental - $225

Office Phone/Internet - $81

Home Mortgage - $1464

Netflix - $22

Groceries - $600

Allowances - $100

Dining - $50

Fuel - $100

Savings - $60

Other - $100

Total - $4986

Income:

Rent - $1600

Paychecks - $3240

Phone/Internet Reimbursement - $81

Total - $4921

And the phone reimbursement will be ending this month.

Thanks for any help you can give!

[heatherdeg]

Well, ask yourself this: how much more debt are you accruing monthly NOW vs. before you did DR...? I think that would be the better judge of why you may be feeling the crunch more: you're not leaning on debt to help you out. But that's just a guess.

First, is that the minimum on both credit cards?  If so, disregard the rest of this paragraph.  If you are paying more than the minimum on both, you have failed DR step #1 (when it comes to paying off debt).  You should be paying the minimum on all but the one with the lowest balance.  If you can get the two to minimum payments and then just add a little to the smaller one, and bring your total credit card payments down--great.

Can you talk to your Student loan admin about IBR?

What is the office payment for?  I see paychecks vs. "income" so I'm not sure about this.

Groceries are HIGH.  We eat around multiple food allergens (gluten, dairy, soy & corn) in a high COL area with 3 full-plate eaters (so help me, I have NO CLUE where my 7yo puts it and I fear for his teen years) and your grocery bill rivals mine.  And mine includes toilet paper, soap, etc.  I'm reeling with being unable to find a produce coop in my new home.  >:(

Ditch dining out for a while.  :(

What are "allowances"?  Is this free spending?  Or is it the stupid misc. stuff like DMV fees, a new stapler, etc...?  (I'm thinking those are covered by "other")

[moonlitemama]

Thanks for the reply, heatherdeg.

We weren't adding much to our credit even before DR.  It was only an occasional thing - a purchase every few months, maybe.  So, I don't think it was that we were using the credit as a crutch. But, maybe.

Credit cards - #1 has a balance of $8500, with a minimum payment of $140.  #2 has a balance of $1400, with a minimum payment of $28.  I plan on paying off #2 and a good chunk on #1 with taxes soon, but I don't see that payment (combined $270) going away real soon.  (Although it's finally looking like it's possible.  Yay!)

From what I've read about student loans, it doesn't appear that we can do any better than we are.  DH incurred the loans between '93-'02ish and they've been sold and re-sold and consolidated, etc.  So, unless he goes back to school (which he would love), I don't think we can get out of that payment.

The office expense.  This one grates at me and I'm trying to figure out a way to ditch it, but no luck so far.  Last year DH took a new job with a company in OH (we're in ID).  Rather than move, which would have been very difficult, they allowed him to telecommute.  However, it's turned out that our internet connection at our house is not reliably fast enough for him to work from home.  Hence the rented office space in town.  The lease ends in a month, so I'm scrambling for ways around having to get another office, but not sure if that will be possible.

Groceries.  I've actually cut this back from around $700-$900.  Yikes!  But $600 seems to be about as low as I can comfortable go. This includes toiletries, cleaning supplies, cat food & litter as well as food. My husband is a big meat eater and I, too, cook for multiple food intolerances (gfdfsf) for all of us.  My husband eats a lot and my two older boys eat more than me most times.  Even the 5 yr old eats almost as much as I do.

I know the dining is an expense that could be cut, in theory.  This category is all my husband's. I haven't eaten out in years. After much work, I've gotten him to cut it down to the $50 (used to be between $50-$150/mo!).  I wish I could get him on board to cut this!

Allowances is $10 every 10 days or so for my husband and I, each.  It's our "free" money, which for DH usually means more dining out and for me means gift buying, kid's allowance, clothing for all of us, and picking up the slack when we're short in the main budget.

Just re-read what I typed and it sounds like I'm just making excuses for everything.  Maybe I am.  I'm trying as hard as I can to get this worked out, but DH isn't really on board, so that makes it hard in some areas.

[cappuccinosmom]

My guess is that your extra stress is because you now are actually paying attention to things, and realizing you're still a little in the hole.

Can you get better internet where you are, for more money?  If that's possible, I'd shell out more for internet at home, and eliminate the office rental and some of the driving.  Paying off the 2nd credit card will at least get your expenses slightly lower than your income, which is great. 

If you don't heat with electricity, you should be able to cut that.  Are you already using energy saving lightbulbs?  Making sure things are not running when nobody is using them (including lights)?  It might seem like a small thing to pay attention to, but with your situation, even $20 here and there makes a difference.

[moonlitemama]

Thanks, cappuccinosmom.  I suppose you're probably right about just being more aware of it.  If only I could live in blissful ignorance!

As for the internet - that's what we're trying to figure out.  We live outside of town so don't have the option of cable or dsl.  We have a wireless connection that's so-so.  Since we had it installed a few years ago, they've put in another tower that may be better for us, but may not.  We'd have to pay about $200 to have the equipment moved to hit the new tower with no guarantees about the service.  We'll probably try that out of desperation once the ground is thawed (which, at this rate, could be awhile!).  DH isn't sure how long he'd want to test that connection before he is comfortable letting the office go, though.  (The current connection seems to fluctuate drastically.)

I can't wait to pay off a credit card and put a substantial dent in the other one.

We heat partially with electric.  Unfortunately, the house is all electric baseboards :(  We do have a fireplace insert that heats two levels, but the lowest level needs to be heated with electric as does our pump house.  And, we're almost out of firewood, so that cost may go up before the winter is over.  We do have only CFL bulbs throughout the house, but we could be better about turning things off - trying to train the kids to see the lights they leave on everywhere.  And DH & I could work on turning off other items.  Thanks for the reminder!

[honeybunmom]

I agree with cappuccionosmom.   It's the awareness - coupled with the fact that your husband is not fully on board.  Is he aware that you all are technically in the hole each month and that he could easily fix that by brown bagging it a couple of days a month?  Going cold turkey is usually hard for most, but perhaps there is room for compromise.  

Also, I don't see property taxes in your budget.  Do I assume correctly that they are escrowed as part of each mortgage?  Otherwise, paying for those would be a huge stressor for me with the budget you posted.

[Aeress]

Your mortgages are both pretty high, anyway to get the interest rate lowered? I imagine in this economy that would be hard, but the even with the $500 rental income coming in, you are still paying out a lot. You would honestly save more selling the rental house (again, I know in this market, it is hard, but it could be shown while you still rent it). You would really save yourself money by selling the rental. The only way to really make money on a rental is to have that mortgage paid off.

[HappyMommy2]

Lower your netflix to $10 by getting only one movie at a time.  If you really want to watch more than one a day, you can use netflix to watch online, or use hulu for other tv stuff.

Small step, but might help a little.

[diana_of_the_dunes]

As a listener of DR, I can promise you he'd tell you to sell the rental because you cannot afford it.  It doesn't matter that it's currently bringing you income; if something big were to go wrong with it, you do not have the money to fix it.  What if you current renters left?  You can't afford the mortgage without them.  I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I think you'd eliminate a lot of worry and a disaster waiting to happen if you were to sell it.

You also need to get your DH on board.  I don't really have any advice for doing this, since mine jumped right on with me.

Do you have an emergency fund?  If so, stop saving $60/month and put it towards debt.  Get rid of Netflix and watch free videos online or borrow from the library or friends.  Have you looked into couponing or buying in bulk?  That might help you a bit with your grocery budget.

Good luck, and KUP!

[moonlitemama]

Thank you all!

I'll keep working on DH and trying to get him on board.  He doesn't talk about or know anything about our finances, really.  Whenever I try to bring it up he either gets pissy or is just like "okay, do whatever you want".  Of course, that does not mean I'm to allow him to feel the pinch we're in.  He gets quite testy if I try to cut anything more from him - the dining, the netflix.  It's so frustrating.

DH does have sandwiches at work, often - he'll keep fixings in a fridge there, however he gets bored of sandwiches (and has too many picky quirks to bring anything else).  If anyone has any suggestions for lunch ideas that don't involve foods that need to be heated (including anything in a thermos, which he won't do), I'd be grateful.

Honeybunmom, yes, the property taxes are rolled into the mortgage, thank goodness.

I have been toying with the idea of needing to sell the rental, although I don't know if I could in this market.  Maybe I'll look further into refinancing - I've just assumed that there are too many fees involved.  I know it's a gamble having a rental, but the market is pretty good here as it's a college town.  And, it is bringing in a profit which helps pay the mortgage on our home.  I don't know if I'm emotionally able to sell one of the properties although I realize it logically makes sense.  I'll give it some more thought.

I think, definitely, if we're able to get a better internet connection we could cut the netflix.  Right now we can't stream video, so online netflix and hulu aren't options.  I don't think I could get DH to drop the subscription to one, but maybe two would be an option.

I fully understand that I need to get DH on board.  If only I knew how!

Yes, we have a $2000 emergency fund.  The $60 savings each month actually does usually go toward debt.  Once I have an extra $100-200 saved I'll make a payment to the credit card, however there has been the occasion when I've had to borrow from that amount rather than put it toward the debt.  (I have the $60 automatically deducted from our account each week and moved into a separate account, so it's a habit I'd hate to get out of.)  Would it be better to pay this amount directly to the debt or keep that little extra cushion?

Groceries - I do try to coupon, but the stores here don't double or anything and most of what I buy doesn't have coupons.  I use them when I can, though.  I would say about 90% of what I buy is bulk or produce.  I have very few items that I buy pre-packaged (cereal - only on sale, sandwich meat, condiments, some canned fruit/veggies - not much, and occasional chips/tortilla chips- on sale).

[heatherdeg]

I would have an extremely hard time letting go of the rental in your situation, too.  You're already short.  It's a risk (and DR is profoundly risk-averse) but it would worry me where that $460/mo it's bringing in is going to come from.  But if you're in a college town, are you getting 12-mo leases?  We always did, but we had grad students.  I don't know what your sitch is.  If you're looking at it being empty in the summer anyway and you'll be putting that mortgage payment on credit, then yeah--it may just not be the time.

If your husband is a meat eater, then you need to be a meat sale shopper.  We have had a rule that we don't eat meat that's more than $1.99/lb.  Now, that is obviously not grassfed, organic, etc. (although I can at least get chicken that is abx-free most of the time)... we don't eat "crap" meat.  London broil, roasts without bones (pork or beef), sausage, boneless pork chops, boneless chicken breasts & thighs, ground beef, etc.  But you HAVE to watch for the sales and just buy a lot of it while you can (as much as you have room for).  Also, you can cut back some of the meat in tiny amounts pretty unnoticeably.  Meat is by far the biggest problem in the grocery budget.  It makes a HUGE difference.

But I totally get kids eating you out of house and home.  I totally believe your 5yo.

As for the office, does your local library have consistent service?  And if they do, do they also have "work rooms" or small rooms that people sometimes use for tutoring?  Is it work that involves phone calls, or could he potentially work in a local coffee shop in town with service (even if only temporarily)...?  My husband has had to do this.  What about an air card?  I'm thinking that would cost less than the combo of the office & internet expense.  I think my husband has one with T-Mobile.  It's essentially wireless service (like a phone) for your computer.  I know it doesn't cost what you're paying in office fees/month but costs differ regionally.

And yes, ignorance is very bliss.  That's why most people want to remain that way.  :(

[moonlitemama]

That's part of what worries me about letting the rental go, too, is where that extra $460 will come from.  Yes, we would have a problem if we couldn't get renters, but otherwise our expenses aren't very high with it.  DH & I are pretty handy when it comes to home repairs and renovations, and we have my dad and brother for back up (dad has done all of his own repairs & building and my brother is a home builder/cabinet maker/excavator).  So, we just have to pay for materials for repairs and upgrades. 

We've had good luck with tenants - always at least a year lease, sometimes a few years.  And usually families/young adults rather than flighty young students.

I've been trying to limit meat buying to $2.50/$3.00 per pound (don't think I've seen anything but pork roast go down to $2.  DH whines about it, but what can I do.  Unfortunately another expensive quirk of his is that he usually eats his meat whole (no casseroles, etc where I can skimp on the amount).  But, I'm trying to be more creative about it.  Thankfully, I do have a huge chest freezer so I can stock up when I find good deals.  (Finally, something in our favor!)

Oh, I've never heard of library work rooms.  That would be great, but ours doesn't have any.  We'd toyed with using internet at a hotspot, but really that would only work as a last resort, not for day-to-day.  He needs phone access and a better system than just a laptop.  So far we also haven't had any luck finding a wireless card that would work at our house (we're in a bit of a black hole for service - cell service is really hit or miss.)  I'll have to ask DH if the wireless card thing would be an option and be cheaper if he were working in town, though.  I think he was saying he's switching to a voice over internet phone next month anyway, so then he'll just have the internet to worry about.

[honeybunmom]

Do you have access to any local CSA's to offset your grocery costs?  This is truly a difficult situation where your partner is not on board.  In your shoes, I'd probably tell him, "I get that finances stress you out . . . and that apparently, I am supposed absorb that stress for the entire family . . . but, when exactly do you want to know the details about the deficit we're building?  Is it before the credit cards are maxed out or after?"
 

Seriously.  You can't be expected to shoulder this alone.  Even if one partner is "better" at managing finances than the other, it doesn't give the non-managing partner the right to put their head in the proverbial sand.

Also on the food front, if you do have WF in your area, they do run one day sales on Fridays in my area and weekend sales (Thurs - Sun) at the meat counter.  Yesterday, I picked up whole chicken legs for $1.99/lb.  Ended up with 6 for about $5.00.  Last Friday was organic roasting chickens for $1.89/lb.  You may be able to check out weekly/daily sales on your local grocer's websites.  Plus see if there are any store coupons that can be downloaded.  When there was a Sunflower in town, they offerred $5.00 off of your total and sometimes more.

[moonlitemama]

I've thought about looking into CSA's - I know we have them around.  I also try my hand at gardening and frequent the farmer's market during the summer, which helps.

We don't have a WF in our area.  We do have a Winco, which has pretty good prices and lots of bulk.  I do try to remember to check the sales fliers for the other two grocery stores to look for deals.  Actually, you've reminded me that I do find good deals on whole chickens once a year or so and stock up when they're .69/lb.  I think I'm down to one, though, so maybe that means they'll go on sale again soon - I'll have to watch.

Thanks for the support regarding my husband's lack of being on board with this.

[seashells]

I just wanted to give you a thumbs-up. I could dig around your budget and tell you where you can cut here and there but you can do that too. It really comes down to making it work the best you can given your circumstances - and since your DH is not on board, a lot of the advice about cutting here or there just flies out the window. Cutting more could even backfire in that situation - let's say you reduce your Netflix package, your DH gets bored and starts bringing home rentals from Blockbuster. Or doing pay-per-view. Well, you're the one who knows better than we do what might happen, and the stress of you living on nothing while he's still in party mode - wow, that would just do me in anyway.

I agree with the PPs, that your stress is not due to trying to get out of debt per se, but simply due to seeing your situation with new clarity. Ignorance is bliss - but you can pat yourself on the back that you didn't choose that route. Your efforts ARE worthwhile, even if you're still in the hole. Imagine if you were just ignoring it - how much more would you be in the hole every month?

I don't think there is advice on getting a spouse on board. I think it's like smoking. Or alcohol. You can't convince another person to quit a drug addiction, and you can't convince them to step up to the plate financially. Oh, I don't mean to be so pessimistic; people DO quit smoking and people DO wake up and smell the financial coffee. There is hope (you know better than I do how much hope). But there's no tried-and-true method for approaching this, because your DH has to want to do it. DR's book is pretty motivating, would he read it? Or listen to his radio show (I've never heard it, I'm just assuming it's motivating)?

What would be your DH's point of resistance, do you know? Like, some guys would say "I'm not willing to go without forever" - obviously the opportunity in that is showing that it's not forever. Do up the numbers and show him exactly how long he would have to suck it up for, before you're free.

Or he might just believe that there is no solution so he's just resigned to it - mapping out a solution could help.

Or he might believe that this is normal and everybody lives like this. Showing him some success stories might give him an inkling of a life not saddled by debt.

Or he might be willing to do without some stuff but doesn't want to THINK about it. The solution to that would be to mutually agree that you both get CASH allowances for specific purposes (you decide based on your lifestyles; it might be a very small amount of blow money only, or maybe it has to include gasoline and other necessary expenses). And he has to use the cash, not a card. You dole out the cash weekly or even daily if that's what it takes. And it's required that he's onboard with this; this only helps if the real issue is that he doesn't want to think about it. You'd have to have good communication on this; if he reaches for a card because he didn't have any cash left, you guys have to figure out together why that happened rather than just let him be in the habit of considering the cash a little bonus rather than his sole allowance.

Or he might feel like he "deserves" this or that. This one is really tough. I think this is the worst one because you're looking at a very fundamental worldview that is counter to financial responsibility. The only thing I can think of is to present it like he really deserves living a life free of stress and restrictions; that if you guys are good little boys and girls for a few years (I dunno how many) then you can live it up. "Live like no-one else, so that later, you can live like no-one else."

[stephbrownthinks]

I started DR 2 or 3 years ago. Before I started we had a budget and I felt like I was on top of things, just never quite able to get ahead. After doing the DR stuff I felt like we were broke all.the.time. I knew we were spending much less money but felt like we were more strapped than ever. My husband was also NOT on board and tended to view the whole new budget thing as a silly phase I was going through.

After awhile it got easier. Awhile later I started really noticing the difference in our finances. My husband started getting more on board. Fast forward to now and we have NO CC DEBT, 6 months expenses in savings, one more car to pay off, and are shopping for a house soon. Changes don't happen overnight and it is stressful when you are having to account for literally every penny. What does your debt/spending look like now compared to 5 months ago? You will see progress, and it will get easier. It takes some time. Good job for deciding to take control!

Once you get those cards paid off, you'll have some more wiggle room. I know it seems like it will never happen, but it will. I'd try to knock out that $1400 one asap. Unless its at 0% interest, I'd take the money you are currently putting into savings and put it towards the card along with anything you end up with "extra." Once its paid off, don't use it!

[moonlitemama]

Thank you so much, seashells!!

That's exactly it.  If I try to push too much more things will backfire.  To DH's credit, he has actually come around a bit from where he was - he let us ditch satelite TV when we moved here (we only have a couple over-air stations), we've dropped Netflix from 4 to 3 at a time, when he lost his cell phone (old job reclaimed it) he didn't push too much about getting one when I told him we couldn't afford it and he has reigned in his eating out quite substantially.  As you said, and I totally agree - it has to be his choice to make this change.  Sure I can nudge a little here and there, but if it's done against his will it really won't help.  I'll try again to get him to read the DR books, but until he's in the mindset that enough is enough and this has to change, he likely won't get much out of it (I know that's how it was for me.  I'd read all sorts of books.  I knew the information.  I just didn't have the desire and will to follow through with it.)

I'm not sure what DH's point of resistance is, really.  Partially it's entitlement - he works darn hard and long hours, so he can't understand why he should go without when something strikes his fancy.  (Which really throws me - neither of us grew up that way.  We both came from proud, hard working but poor and resourceful families.)  And partially it's just not wanting to think about it.  On the things that have worked, it works best if it just 'is' and he doesn't have to ponder any details.  Thanks for the food for thought - I'll definitely think a bit more on this, myself.

This thread has actually gotten me motivated to look further into refinancing - I researched it online some and am calling the bank now. 

[seashells]

Well, that's encouraging! So he's made some progress. That's really a big deal.

Parking a DR book near the toilet might be a good idea. Based on what I've read here, a lot of guys will read any material their wives leave them on the john. You're right that reading DR is not necessarily going to light a flame under his butt, but if he flips through the book he can mull it over for a while. It might take 2 months or 2 years but it may all suddenly gel. I don't think you have to wait until he's onboard for him to read it. It's good that you don't expect him to suddenly be onboard just by reading it, but it might help him get to that point quicker.

I guess I'd also be hitting hard on the positive feedback, wherever you can find it. To avoid it seeming like some artificial BS that you keep nagging him on, I'd log a list of successes, no matter how small, and present in a monthly report. The report these days might look like "Our CC debt was $X at the beginning of February, and now it's down to $Y; we've increased our net worth a little this month!" Later it might include tidbits like "we got our annual XXX bill in the mail, and we usually have to put that on the cc/scramble for it/dip into savings but we were able to pay it off no problem." If you notice he managed to defer on a purchase, you can connect it to a success - "You got lunch out $X less this month, and that's why we were able to put $Y extra toward the cc." Maybe it's just me, but seeing progress really helps, rather than thinking I'm just going without and we're still in the same damn place. I also like projections - "At this rate, we'll be paid off by X month!" or even challenges - "and if we do without Y, we'll be paid off by Z (earlier) month!"

So in a way, the successes become my reward. It can feel good to spend $50 on a new shirt or a dinner out, but it can also feel fabulous to spend it on getting out of debt, one more notch closer.

[moonlitemama]

Thanks, stephbrownthinks. Helpful to know there are others who have dealt with a similar situation and that your dh finally came around. Okay, I'll start throwing everything at that cc - it would be great to see that go soon.

LOL, seashells - putting the book in the bathroom is a great idea!  I also like the idea of a monthly success report.  I think that would help me, too.  It's so easy for me to get bogged down in the details rather than realizing the progress I am making.  Thank you!

On a down note, though, I spoke to the bank and a re-fi is not possible at this point.  The interest rates need to drop a bit more.  Also, I was hoping that we'd be able to drop the PMI since the rental has appreciated since we bought it, but it doesn't sound like they look at it like that - the increase in value has to come from concrete improvements to the property.  Bummer.

[redvlagrl]

You've had some really great advice about your DH. I can't really help you here because DH is totally on board, BUT I did force him to read the book which is what lit the fire under his butt. Both of ours, actually. I think what the book emphasises is that it is NOT for ever. That you'll actually be able to live better if you live hard for a few years. And for us, with young kids, now is not the time when we have the freedom to do the stuff we'd like to do.

What I wanted to suggest for the office/internet is that you ask a friend or relative who lives in town to let your DH work from their home in exchange for you covering their (fast) internet. That would save you some money, plus there would be a perk for them too.

Have you switched our life insurance to the type that DR specifies (I'm not clear on this because DH's is mandated by his work)?

The $60 savings should actually be going to your snowball (1 credit card in your case). If you save $60 a month instead of paying if off, you're not really saving it all because that month you're incurring interest on your balance.

I also budget $600 for groceries - this is where we don't stint ourselves, BUT we are in Canada, eat out rarely and don't have any credit card debt. You could try and give your DH options - he can either have a certain number of meatless (or meat light dinners) per week, or he can switch to cheaper cuts like stewing beef a certain number of nights a week (and have it every night). Could you do meat light, like using ham hocks as a soup base? It tastes very meaty but doesn't cost much. I shop flyers when they are selling stuff we buy (whole foods etc), go to 2 markets and sometimes an extra supermarket every week.

I would def switch to 1 or 2 at a time netflix. I had netflix in the US and the post is so fast that you're not really impeded. Also I love that you can leave your outgoing mail at the box.

Your allowance shouldn't be going on gifts - that should have its own category. Our allowances are for purely personal spending. If I want to go out with friends, have an coffee, get a pedi etc.

Also, we found that it took a few months to really get into the swing of things and we had to tweak our budget quite a lot for about 4-5 months to get the right amounts in each line item.

Also, do you work? Is there some way you could add to the income?