Questioning how we discipline our older kids, and wondering how GD looks day-to-day.

[BrennaRawks]

Hi all!

For a little over a year now, I've been really questioning some of our parenting practises for a whole host of reasons.

Our boys are almost 10, and 7 years old. Our daughter is almost 4 months old. Obviously, discipline is a non issue for the baby but for our boys, I've been wondering if we're doing right by them.

So, how does GD work? And how does it look in your home for your family?

Thanks for humoring the newbie! :)

[luv my 2 sweeties]

Hi Brenna,

Personally, I'm a lot less "gentle" with my 10 and 8 year old than I was when they were littler.  By that I mean that they know what I expect by now, and I don't hesitate to get stern when they are clearly not doing what they should.  I do have a favorite book about parenting older kids:  The Secret of Parenting: How to be in Charge of Today's Kids -- from Toddlers to Preteens -- Without Threats or Punishment by Anthony E. Wolf.  I do not by any means parent this way most of the time, however, lol!  It's a method that is very far outside my own practical experience, so it's hard for me to implement it.  There are some aspects of the book I disagree with and would not want to implement, but the over-all premise of stating expectations, then SHUTTING UP and letting the expectation do the work is one that I have found to be pretty effective when I can manage to actually shut up!  (My mother never shut up when she was upset with us, and while that was the one aspect of her parenting I disliked the most, I find myself doing the same thing way more than I'd like. ) 

So you've inspired me to go back and read the book again and keep trying, but at this point I do hand out punishments such as taking away computer time, etc.  The biggest thing I'd like to change about my parenting (besides being able to shut up) is to make fewer threats.  I've come a long way on this already, but I could do even better.  Either don't threaten at all, or hand out the consequence and be done with it.  I think the nagging of threats hanging over a kid's head all the time is disrespectful and manipulative.  I recognize that I threaten because I really *don't* want to punish, but I *do* want to get my way immediately.  But besides being disrespectful, it doesn't work very well -- my kids are on to me!

I don't know if this is helpful.  Without knowing more about what you are doing that you're questioning, I can only answer from my own feelings of struggle with these ages.  Over all, I think my kids are pretty good.  We're doing OK, but could do better.  You are not alone, in any case!  GD looks different at an older age, I think, and it has to work for the whole family, Mom included.

[BrennaRawks]

Thanks for the reply! :)

I'd say that overall, my boys really are good kids who try to listen. Mostly it's just that when they do disobey, our punishment methods are probably not the best. I personally will take things away (video games, tv time, etc) but I find i hard to follow through. My ds2 is very skilled at nagging until he gets his way.

Dh and I have kinda been butting heads about certain discipline issues. He prefers to spank and *not* take away the big things (weekends with my SIL and her wife, special activities, etc) whereas I don't personally spank and am more inclined to make a point by taking away the biggies. Does that make sense?

I have friends who mention that they use "natural consequences" but I don't even know what that means in terms of discipline. *embarrassed*

[mamazee]

My favorite book for this age group is How to Talk so Kids will Listen.  I think a lot of those techniques work really well with my 9-year-old.  And modeling behavior is still a big part of discipline.  And still not expecting them to just know how to behave and thinking they're wrong for behavior poorly, but understanding they're still learning how to behave well and helping teach them that.  Changing the framing from "rude" to "learning to be polite" helps me keep my cool and stay on track.

[pianojazzgirl]

OP, I think "natural consequences" means literally the consequence that would follow naturally the action (ie. without outside influence) .  So if ds refuses to wear a jacket the "natural consequence" would be that he gets cold.  The presumption is that next time it's time to get dressed up to go outside ds will remember that not wearing a jacket made him cold and so he'll put on his jacket without a fuss.

I think a lot of the time people say they're using "natural consequences" when really they mean "logical consequences".  Sometimes the situation is more complicated (than my example above), or the "natural consequences" are too horrible (like you can't just let your toddler not use the carseat and let them learn for themselves what that would mean in an accident, yk?!).  In that case a lot of parents like to think of consequences that are at least related to the "misbehaviour".  An example of "logical consequences" would be if your kid defaces school property then she needs to apologize and clean up the graffiti.   Another example is one sibling breaks the other siblings favourite toy because he's mad, so as a consequence needs to use his own money to replace said toy.  That kind of thing.  The thinking behind that kind of discipline is that the kid sees an obvious connection between his behaviour and what happens, and (like in the examples I came up with) is actively working to make amends/fix his mistake. 

It seems like a lot of the time when parents punish their kids there is a disconnect between misdeed and punishment.  Here's an example: say a girl stole some of her sister's halloween candy and so her parents decide that she is now grounded for a week.  Do you see how the one doesn't really have to do with the other?  They've dealt out a "consequence" (punishment), but it is neither "natural" nor "logical".  Probably the "natural" consequence in that case is that the sister is mad and might not want to play with her sister.  A "logical consequence" that the parents might impose could be that the dd who stole the candy needs to use her allowance to replace it for her sister.

I hope that makes sense!

ETA I also think (with kids of any age!) it's of the utmost importance to get to the root of *why* they did whatever they did.  It could be as simple as realizing that your kiddos fight more when they're hungry or tired so you try to keep on top of snacks and make sure they're getting to bed on time and/or having enough downtime.  Or it could be that one kid is acting out more than usual because a new sibling has joined the family, or they're having some kind of trouble at school, or whatever.  The way you address the misbehaviour has a lot (everything?) to do with what's causing it.  Keeping an open dialogue with your kids is crucial.  A lot of GD parents like to sit down and have "family meetings" where they can talk about whatever issues are currently at hand and get the kids to brainstorm with them on ways of solving problems.  It's amazing the ideas that kids can come up with that we might never have thought of, but that really *work* to fix things, yk? 

[LynnS6]

We've got 9 1/2 year old and a 6 1/2 year old. In many ways, our GD isn't all that different from when the kids were littler, except that now we can accomplish more verbally, and the things they need are more emotional/psychological than physical. 9 times out of 10, when our kids act up, it's because they are Hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired (HALT). It's good list to go through when they're 2, and it's a good list to go through when they're 12. It's a good list for me to go through for myself at 44. (It's often used in recovery programs, but it works just as well for parenting.)

I second the "How to Talk.." book, and I really like the Secret of Parenting too (though it's been forever since I've read it). My other two favorite books are: Playful Parenting by Larry Cohen and Kids, Parents & Power Struggles by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. Playful Parenting really talks about how to connect with your kids -- and the more I'm connected to my kids, the less acting out we get. It's been a hard month at our house because I've had work commitments that have kept me away from home 1-2 evenings a week, everyone has been sick, and we haven't had time to have fun together. I've really tried to carve out time as often as I can to reconnect with each child. With dd, that means playing Playmobil, baking, and just snuggling. With ds, that means listening to his descriptions of the latest Blazer game/trade, and playing nerf basketball in the kitchen.

Things to think about:

Your children, though they are older, still have a lot to learn. The root of discipline means teaching, and so I try to approach most discipline from a teaching point of view -- what do I want my child to learn to be able to do/how do I want them to learn to behave? As mamazee said, a lot of things change in your discipline when you change your perspective from "my kids are being bad/rude/unhelpful rude" to "my children need to learn how to control their temper/say things politely/help around the house". If they are just 'rude', that's doesn't sound like something I can fix. But, if I view it as they need to learn to say something politely, that IS a skill I can work on.

Consequences: I'm a firm believer in logical consequences. The pp described the difference between natural and logical consequences quite nicely. I'm all for natural consequences when they don't endanger my child (I'm not willing to risk the natural consequences of not wearing a seat belt, for example) or when they don't risk my sanity. But if natural consequences aren't going to work, then I'll do logical consequences. For example, one night last week, dd refused to do chores before bed because she was "tired". I missed part of the argument between her and dh because I was sick (and talking to my mom on the phone), but dh sent her to bed directly, with no snack. If you're too tired to do chores, you're too tired to do your reading before bed and you're too tired to stay up for a snack/reading. However, I wouldn't take away TV time because she didn't do chores. I MIGHT insist that before she watches TV the next day, she must do her chores so we know she has enough energy. The consequence needs to fit the offense.

For me, I have to work hard on not yelling at my kids. I tend to explode and that's not great. I do apologize to my kids afterward, because that's the right thing to do, and it models for my kids how to make amends. I probably also need to work on following through with what I'm saying before I get to the point where I blow up.

So, in the approaches that you've described above, I'm seeing two things that might make me uncomfortable: 

First, you seem to be focused on discipline as punishment, not discipline as teaching. I get into that mode sometimes too, and it makes me uncomfortable. It also hurts the connection I have with my kids. When I return to discipline as teaching, it's better all around. It's more effective, it's more calm.

Second, I'm not seeing that the consequences are fitting the crime for either you or your husband. Spanking is never related, and there's lots of good research to suggest it's not effective. (And pretty soon your 10 year old is going to be 14 - is he still going to spank then??). What are you children learning from spanking? But removing 'big' privileges doesn't probably fit the crime either, does it? What relationship does that have with what you're angry with your kids about?

Can you switch this around? How can  your consequences help your children learn the skills they need? Our dd, for example, struggles with self control. We're willing to offer comfort and sometimes I can sit with her while she has her tantrum/fit. But there are times when she needs to separate herself to get herself together before we all go completely nuts. For example, we sent her to her room today before lunch (it was a late lunch and she was hungry and tired). I was trying to make her lunch, dh was trying to fix her computer so she could watch the DVD she'd just gotten out of the library. It didn't make sense for us to stop these activities to be with her at that very moment. Hunger was giving her a short temper, the inability to play the DVD was causing the meltdown. So, we sent her to her room. This separation wasn't punishment, it was a space for her to get her act together. When she was done that, she was free to join us again. It took 2-3 trips to her room, before lunch was ready. After she'd had lunch, she was fine.

[coffeegirl]

I'm gonna go a little against the grain of most of reponses you've received so far. I defitiely think that if your methods of discipline are making you uncomfortable or are no longer effective, then you should change them. But at the same time, I don't neceesarily agree that logical/natural consequences are necessary. I don't see the logic behind the punishment always having to "fit" or "connect" with the crime (so to speak) in order for the child to learn WHY the behavior or action was long. As long as the child knows why s/he is being punished (this is IF you even choose to punish), then it will be effective. It can be as simple as telling them.

In the real world, you break the law (such as shoplifting for instance....) and you go to jail. How is going to jail related to shoplifting? It's not, but it's a deterrent and we know it becaus the people in charge make it clear. I think it's similar with parents and children. I get logical consequences, and that's a way we want to raise our kids, but it's not going to be the ONLY way. Sometimes a removal of privilages may be in order; sometimes a time out may be in order. Even if they have nothing to do with the behaviors you're trying to correct.

I think the big keys in effective discipline (gentle or otherwise) are consistency and communication. Communicate effectively with your children--- try to get to the root of the behaviors, try to listen, and try not to get angry and get in the mode of lecturing and talking on and on and on and on....