Homework - Page 2

[mar123]

I don't have a problem with getting my kids to do homework (5th, 7th and 9th grade- they have homework in every class most nights). I do have a problem getting the high school students I teach to do homework. Why? because they didn't have any in middle school. The middle school in our district follows this middle school model where they spend an hour a day telling the kids how great they are and they do not assign any homework.

The school where I teach is on a 4x4 block schedule. The kids only have 4 classes per semester; only 2 of them are core classes. So a typical student might have English, science, Art and PE. Even though the average student only has two core classes, I do not assign an extraordinary amount of homework. My class might need to read one chapter in their novel at night.Or answer the socratic seminar questions.  Or work on 10 note cards for the research paper. Or type a previously written poem and make corrections. Homework is necessary for my classes because I only have these kids for 1/2 the year (yes, for 90 a minutes a day, but I still struggle to cover everything in 90 days).  Yet, the majority of my students do not do homework. I even give out a schedule ahead of time so that the kids can learn to plan and budget their time. Doesn't matter; most still don't do it. I don't give out endless grammar sheets. My classes are engaging and rigorous. But sometimes I need the students to come in already prepared so we can do the high level (re: NOT bookwork) stuff.

That being said, if a student is not used to having some homework, high school can be very difficult (Not to mention college). I am not talking hours of homework, but IMO students need to be in the habit of sitting down and doing a little work for school. Habits are easier to implement if they are younger.  

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by Cavy 

I have the impression that many MDCrs like their grade-school age children having homework and feel it's important that your DC do it.  

Funny, I would have said quite the opposite. My impression is that most MDCrs dislike homework, are more likely to question its worth and opt out of having their dc do it. I suppose it depends on your exposure to others, but it is interesting how different people can have a different impression. 

Originally Posted by Cavy 

Do you all have to sign home-school agreements where you make sure homework gets done?  Do you think homework is important for under 12s?  How do you really feel about it?

I haven't had to sign an agreement. For the most part, my dc comply with homework requirements. Occasionally, I've addressed homework issues with teachers and there's always been a satisfactory resolution. For example, DD has done very well in math this year. She was frustrated with having to complete every homework question, e.g. Question 1, parts (a) to (m). I suggested she do every other question, or the first and the last of each question, or some other similar approach. Her teacher confirmed that she only had to work on the questions where she needed some practice or reinforcement.  That made DD happy and I haven't heard any grumbling about math homework in months. 

Admittedly, she is in high school this year, but this was our approach in earlier grades too. As long as the homework is meaningful, and reasonable in quantity, it doesn't bother me. 

Originally Posted by mar123 

I do have a problem getting the high school students I teach to do homework. 

.......

Habits are easier to implement if they are younger.  

One of DD's frequent complaints this year has been about her classmates' poor work habits.  The teacher announces a test date or assignment deadline.  DD works hard, studies, and shows up on the day, good to go.  Classmates show up unprepared, whinging that they didn't know, forgot, have some other excuse why they didn't finish the work or couldn't study. Teacher caves in and agrees to move the test or extends the deadline. 

It has happened frequently and consistently all year long. DD is very frustrated at this point and is starting to believe that her good work habits are actually keeping her at a disadvantage (instead of turning things in on time, she could use the extra time to improve her work).

Perhaps the teachers are giving the students a little more consideration and being flexible to soften the adjustment for freshmen high schoolers. That's what I tell DD, at least. Even if true, I don't think they are doing any real favours for these children.  

I know this little rant isn't really addressing the OP's questions, but your comments hit a nerve and I think it's somewhat relevant to the work habits issue that's been raised in this thread. 

[velochic]

I'm one of those parents you alluded to in your post, OP, but I guarantee you that it's not the norm around here.  Most people are not pro-homework.

I think that homework is a good thing when it's administered properly.  I think that reinforcing what is learned during the day helps a child when they have a chance to apply it/experience it outside of the school environment.  One of the problems with education in the US is that kids learn the facts, but then they can't apply them to real life or they simply don't know how to obtain the information they need without the aid of Google.  Within the context of the classroom, they may do well, but in life, they fail.  That's where the parents get involved.  I don't put the onus of my dd's education solely on the shoulders of educators.  They need to have a vibrant learning environment at home.

For us, part of homework is learning to do it and developing good study habits.  You can't expect kids to suddenly know how to study in 7th or 8th grade.  Part of doing homework is actually learning HOW to do it.  Learning how to concentrate, complete the work, find a method that works for you, applying the knowledge... it's all part of the act of doing homework.  My dh is from a culture where the kids spend a LOT of time doing homework (in high school, they spend about 4 hours a night doing homework and a lot of time on the weekends).  His experience (he's also a university tenured professor, so is in the business of higher education) is that American kids, as a generalization, don't learn good study and homework habits and it hurts them when they get to where he is teaching them.  It's the foreign students that are able to really handle the load of information because they have learned to work on their own, rather than getting everything spoon-fed to them.  I agree with him.

So, as an outlier, and one that doesn't hold the same opinion as most, I think that homework is beneficial, but should be a gradual increase in intensity over the course of elementary school, so that when it really matters, kids have learned to buckle down and learn on their own.

We don't have to sign a homework agreement.  Dd is in private language immersion school that is already academically rigorous, so if we have her in this school, we agree to the rules.  We have her there by choice.  She sometimes has 2 hours of homework (3rd grade) and sometimes just 1 or less.  She enjoys the work, though.  Sometimes she does get distracted, but more often than not, she's actually asking for additional things to do because she considers it fun.  We also, as I mentioned, do a lot of fun educational stuff at home.

[loraxc]

I inistinctively dislike homework for young elementary schoolers, but I only have a first grader, so I'm not really in a position to say when it should ramp up and how.

DD has 5-10 minutes of homework 3-4 nights a week, which is fine, IMO. Her school does not emphasize it, which I like a lot.

[Emmeline II]

Ds is only in first grade but is in an academically rigorous charter. He is the type that would be resistant to homework if it were suddenly demanded of him a few years down the line. The slow build-up of homework at his school is appropriate for him. It's about 10min a night plus reading.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

The teacher announces a test date or assignment deadline.  DD works hard, studies, and shows up on the day, good to go.  Classmates show up unprepared, whinging that they didn't know, forgot, have some other excuse why they didn't finish the work or couldn't study. Teacher caves in and agrees to move the test or extends the deadline. 

.....I don't think they are doing any real favours for these children.  

I agree, they aren't doing the kids any favors. They are re-enforcing really bad habits that won't serve the students well at university or in life.

My kids are in middle school (one takes half high school courses and half middle school courses) and so far this year, the only deadlines that have slid have been about having certain books. The lit. classes read real novels, and every time they start a new one there is a LOT of drama about all the kids getting the book. (only one time was it our family causing the drama!)

We are considering going with Nooks or something next year to make it simplier than getting real books.

I also question if giving young children homework helps them learn to do homework, or if waiting until they are developmental ready for it makes more sense. It just seems that with so many young children, the homework is more about mommy and her organizational skills than about the kid, so what the kid really learns is to rely on mommy. I understand the argument that getting kids used to it when they are 6 prepares them for when they are 12, but looking around me, I just don't buy it.

When my kids were in public middle school last year, getting kids to turn in homework was an on-going issue, and most of those kids had had homework the whole way through.

[mattemma04]

Homework is a waste of time for my kids.They spend all day in school working,and I think that is enough.My kids don't get as much work as public school kids.When my ds was in public K he got homework.Pretty lame. If there was an opt out option I would allow the kids to skip the homework.

[mar123]

I think if it is a waste of time, then the right type of work is not assigned. I am not a fan of the 50-math-problems-on-a-worksheet type of homework. If my students don't complete homework, they are behind the next day. I am not talking about how it affects their grades, although it does. If someone doesn't answer the socratic seminar questions, then they can't participate in the seminar. This is one of my students' favorite activities. I can't give class time everytime something needs to be typed for the writing portfolio (which follows them from 7th-12th grade). If they don't read a chapter in the novel that was assigned, they cannot participate or understand the discussion. When students don't complete this type of homework, it affects the entire class and does not allow for optimal learning.

I think the number one factor that affects kids' attitudes towards homework is their parents. There may be some exceptions to that, but overall I believe that- especially in the younger grades.

I think most people on MDC are against homework. I was actually surprised to read some people who supported it.

Velochic- I LOVE what you said about homework. Very well put.

[imogenlily]

I was homeschooled from K-6, and in grade 7 (junior high - I guess equivalent to middle school, here) started at a religious school with rigorous academics. As grade 7 students, we had about 3 hours of homework a night. There were six or seven subjects requiring our atten*tion (English, French, Religious Studies, Math, Science, two electives, all assigning homework!), big projects in each, and regular independent studying expected to do well on tests in each subject.

When I got to high school, things felt much easier, because I only had three core courses and maybe two electives which didn't assign as much homework. I rarely spent three hours a night on homework in highschool, unless I was finishing a large project or reading assignment, or studying for an important exam.

I was definitely at a disadvantage in junior high from not being assigned homework earlier. I resented the time commitment and didn't have the skills to remember what was expected or to work competently with a dayplanner, like all the other grade 7s were doing. I got reprimanded a lot from teachers, and didn't get to socialize during lunch or recess because I was in study hall, finishing my homework, which I was always so behind in that there was never any chance of actually "finishing". It really soured my relationship with my parents, teachers, and my feelings towards learning in general.

I would be fine with an elementary school child having small assignments or a bit of studying to do (spelling, times tables), and I would want to support them to develop study skills to be ready for exams and independent projects in middle school or high school. I would resent busy work and some of these reading log type assignments too, certainly.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by velochic 

I think that homework is a good thing when it's administered properly.  I think that reinforcing what is learned during the day helps a child when they have a chance to apply it/experience it outside of the school environment........I don't put the onus of my dd's education solely on the shoulders of educators.  They need to have a vibrant learning environment at home.

I agree with this. I forgot to mention that one of the benefits of homework for our family is the opportunity for DH and I to see what our dc are doing in class, assess how well they are managing and using it as a springboard to other educational activities, discussions, etc. It allows us to be involved and up-to-date with their academic life. As I said before though, the homework must be meaningful and reasonable in quantity, not just busywork. 

[HollyBearsMom]

I posted this on another thread where posters where surprised that I let my son choose whether to complete his homework.: (my son is in 3rd grade.)

In our family good physical exercises and PLAY is just as important as school. He is at school from 8 am until 3:15.  That is plenty of schoolwork. I feel no need prioritize homework over downtime, family time, spending time outdoors, playing with friends, etc. 

If the work interests him then he can choose to do it, which he often does. He recently completed a series on archeology and was pumped to come home and learn more. I have to admit that he didn't do the standardized worksheets the teacher sent home but instead created an in-depth collage/report that outlined a typical dig. It was awesome!  Honestly- I find most of the work sent home is because parents expect homework and its just busy work.

 

Doing homework (or not) is my son's choice. Technically we have homework agreements but the teachers know our philosophy. My son often chooses to do the homework because most of it is math related and he loves math but free time and play is more important.  I don't *discourage* doing homework but I encourage outside time and physical activity first. 

I agree that a child's education should not be the sole responsibility of the educational system. Our home is full of books (including pleasure, reference, almanacs and the like), maps, music, art supplies and computer access so I consider it a rich learning environment.  We also have access to and take complete advantage of a number of libraries, state parks and museums. But this is a matter of privilege as there are many in my town and the surrounding communities where just owning a computer and having internet access is a luxury..

[MJB]

My public schooled 2nd grader rarely gets homework. 

My private schooled kindergartner gets a reading assignment every weeknight. It is supposed to take about 10 minutes but it usually takes less than that-- they use A-Z reading and it is at their reading level or lower. I think all of the books are 15 pages. When he fusses about doing it, I insist, but usually he just does it in the car on the way home and it's no big deal.

If I felt my child's homework was meaningless busywork and it was causing a lot of conflict, I'd talk to the teacher about an alternate assignment. But I am not anti-homework. 

[robinia]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

 I also question if giving young children homework helps them learn to do homework, or if waiting until they are developmental ready for it makes more sense. It just seems that with so many young children, the homework is more about mommy and her organizational skills than about the kid, so what the kid really learns is to rely on mommy. I understand the argument that getting kids used to it when they are 6 prepares them for when they are 12, but looking around me, I just don't buy it. 

Thank you, this states so well the issue I've been trying to articulate to myself over the past year.  As I try to re-arrange my work day to collect DS early from after school care to make enough time for Year 1 homework, I really have to agree with this.
 

[EFmom]

I've never heard of a homework agreement.  Our district piles on homework from a very early age.  If asked to sign an agreement, well, we don't sign coercive "agreements."

The idea that saddling elementary school students with homework is essential for their future success is unsupported by the research.  And it makes as much sense to me as thinking that since they'll need a colonoscopy when they are 50, they might as well get started now.

Dh is a high school teacher.  After actually looking at the research on homework, he drastically cut the amount he assigns his students to a token amount to keep off the administration's radar.  He's noticed no difference whatsoever in their academic achievement.  None.

[velochic]

Originally Posted by EFmom 

I've never heard of a homework agreement.  Our district piles on homework from a very early age.  If asked to sign an agreement, well, we don't sign coercive "agreements."

The idea that saddling elementary school students with homework is essential for their future success is unsupported by the research.  And it makes as much sense to me as thinking that since they'll need a colonoscopy when they are 50, they might as well get started now.

Dh is a high school teacher.  After actually looking at the research on homework, he drastically cut the amount he assigns his students to a token amount to keep off the administration's radar.  He's noticed no difference whatsoever in their academic achievement.  None.

For every piece of research about homework being worthless, there is a piece of research showing that it's beneficial when executed properly.  Like most people, I think busy-work is a waste, but there is a RIGHT way of assigning homework.  The problem is that many teachers don't know enough or are not motivated enough to even assign that homework that is enriching rather than boring.

Your colonoscopy example is kind of ridiculous - apples and oranges.  A better analogy would be playing basketball.  A child never plays basketball, then is expected to be on the team one year at 13 years of age.  They're not going to know what the heck they're doing, and not even know the rules of the game.  A colonoscopy is passive.  Basketball is active.  Homework is active.  I'd hate to have to "prove" myself on the court if I'm clueless.  This is what happens to kids who have never had homework or have never formed good study habits.  They're instantly expected to perform at a level without any adjustment.

As my dh is a university professor, and sees the results of what your dh is producing with the lack of homework, I don't doubt that our opinions differ greatly on this subject.  Of course your dh doesn't see any difference in their academic achievement.  Not at the high school level... especially if his colleagues are following his example.  But university is where the rubber meets the road.  When kids get to college, there is no mollycoddling anymore.  Sink or swim.  They are expected to manage their time properly and do the work.  If a child has not learned to do the work, then there is no way they are going to be successful at that level.  College is not the time to start learning these life lessons.

Edited by velochic - 3/3/11 at 5:36am

[EFmom]

Originally Posted by velochic 

For every piece of research about homework being worthless, there is a piece of research showing that it's beneficial when executed properly.  Like most people, I think busy-work is a waste, but there is a RIGHT way of assigning homework.  The problem is that many teachers don't know enough or are not motivated enough to even assign that homework that is enriching rather than boring.

Your colonoscopy example is kind of ridiculous - apples and oranges.  A better analogy would be playing basketball.  A child never plays basketball, then is expected to be on the team one year at 13 years of age.  They're not going to know what the heck they're doing, and not even know the rules of the game.  A colonoscopy is passive.  Basketball is active.  Homework is active.  I'd hate to have to "prove" myself on the court if I'm clueless.  This is what happens to kids who have never had homework or have never formed good study habits.  They're instantly expected to perform at a level without any adjustment.

As my dh is a university professor, and sees the results of what your dh is producing with the lack of homework, I don't doubt that our opinions differ greatly on this subject.  Of course your dh doesn't see any difference in their academic achievement.  Not at the high school level... especially if his colleagues are following his example.  But university is where the rubber meets the road.  When kids get to college, there is no mollycoddling anymore.  Sink or swim.  They are expected to manage their time properly and do the work.  If a child has not learned to do the work, then there is no way they are going to be successful at that level.  College is not the time to start learning these life lessons.

I'm also an academic.  If there is some benefit to giving elementary school kids homework, then your analogy to what your husband sees should also be true in junior high school and high school.  There should also be a difference over the course of a school year with high school kids.  My husband has colleagues who give a great deal of homework.  Class results from teacher to teacher are extremely similar with comparable ability groups.

And I disagree with you about the research.  Research in the field of education is notoriously bad.  If you actually read the entire studies that "prove" benefit to homework, what you generally find is that there is either a statistically insignificant sample size or the data does not show what the authors are hoping to show.  Yet the conclusion they draw is the one they set out to prove, in spite of what the data shows.

[velochic]

Originally Posted by EFmom 

I'm also an academic.  If there is some benefit to giving elementary school kids homework, then your analogy to what your husband sees should also be true in junior high school and high school.  There should also be a difference over the course of a school year with high school kids.  My husband has colleagues who give a great deal of homework.  Class results from teacher to teacher are extremely similar with comparable ability groups.

And I disagree with you about the research.  Research in the field of education is notoriously bad.  If you actually read the entire studies that "prove" benefit to homework, what you generally find is that there is either a statistically insignificant sample size or the data does not show what the authors are hoping to show.  Yet the conclusion they draw is the one they set out to prove, in spite of what the data shows.

Research for higher education is notoriously bad to prove that homework has no benefits, as well.  The proof is kind of in the pudding, though.  I don't know what field your research and teaching is in, but dh is in computer science and math.  The American students who get little homework in high school often do not do well in his classes because they lack a fundamental ability to study.  They come to him wanting their hands held and with all sorts of excuses.  On the contrary, most of the foreign students who had a rigorous high school academic experience (like dh himself who came to the US 35 years ago to go to university) do well and have good study habits.  In all his years of academia (25+) he's had only 2 American PhD students.  I don't know if this trend exists across all of the sciences, but it does in CS and math.  (Dh is the President of the School of Science at his university and a common complaint from the faculty is that there are so many more foreign students in the Masters and PhD programs because the American students are not able to handle the course load and research.) So, while this certainly isn't a solid "research" finding, it certainly show some strong evidentiary data.  I think many kids here get too little homework in high school and they start too late so that kids have a hard time learning how to study.

What I'm saying is that through the elementary years, kids should gradually get more homework so that when they reach middle and high school, they aren't suddenly thrust into a situation where they have a lot of homework they can't handle.  Now, many who don't like homework will say they should NEVER get homework.  These may also be people who do not plan for their children to receive a higher education.  We're the opposite.  We're expecting dd to go to college and she does as well.  It's assumed even.  She's already in a rigorous academic environment, so she's on the path that we chose for her and which she now wants to be on.  She needs to do homework and I have no problem with her doing it.  You and I will never agree on this subject because our philosophies are different.  We'll have to agree to disagree.

Edited by velochic - 3/4/11 at 3:29am

[mar123]

I see the same thing that Veochic's husband sees, but I do see it in high school. Our school is one of only two in the district. We pull from two different middle schools. In addition, we get MANY students from the Catholic grammar school. I can always spot a student from the Catholic school based on two things. One, they know grammar, 2, they do homework and don't whine when I assign it. Why? because the Catholic schools teach grammar (our middle schools don't) and they assign homework.

I still assert that the right type of homework is beneficial. Not only that, but it is necessary. There is so much talk these days about extending the school day and school year. Part of this is because teachers don't have time to do everything needed in the class. If students were assigned things for homework (and actually did it), instead of using class time, we would be able to get through what is needed. It is ridiculous that many students will not read one chapter in a novel at home. Instead, I have to use class time. There is so much more I could be doing if I could count on a majority of students to do the reading. But they just don't.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by velochic 
The American students who get little homework in high school often do not do well in his classes because they lack a fundamental ability to study. 

How does he know how much homework they had? Many American schools assign a ton of it.

To compare to your basketball analagy, I don't think it would help a child to start when they are two and having their mommy put the ball into the hoop for them. I think that's what a lot of homework for small children amounts to. I think that when kids are old enough to actually be responsible for it themselves, they can be eased into it.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 
How does he know how much homework they had? Many American schools assign a ton of it.

I have only experience working as a TA during graduate school, so velochic's husband likely has a broader range of answers. I know that my students told me how much homework they had - mostly because they were complaining. The biggest issue I had was that students would get really upset when I wouldn't tell them what questions would be on the test because apparently that's standard in high schools. These were history courses. We had a textbook, but we also read memoirs to supplement knowledge, and students would complain about being asked to read 1-2 chapters of really interesting materials because they'd never had to read as homework in high school.