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how does circumcision cause E.D. in adults? - Page 2

post #21 of 46

You make a lot of sense with your statements.  I think one reason that no one is interested in doing such studies on older men, is that with most older men deficient in the male hormone, testosterone, there most likely is not the interest in doing the study!  If more older men were interested in such a study, it would have been done already.  Lacking such a study, your points make a lot of sense, since those are actually facts about the male sexual response in aging men.  What is sad is that when talking about the after effects of cutting a young baby boy or child, no one is talking about what can happen when he gets older, only that oh, it won't affect his sexual function as a grown male.  This is like saying well, if he can at least function, produce children, and get some pleasure out of it..... he works just fine!  I wonder why no one wants to hear the truth about how being cut actually affects the performance of his natural penis?  And how it just might affect his female partner?  That is the cruelty of it.  Yet people still defend it!

post #22 of 46

As noted on the NORM site, there is foreskin restoration. It's better than doing nothing for the circumcised male.

post #23 of 46

I certainly hope that my sexlife has not petered out permanently, but as you say, restoring it is a two-person project.  I keep trying to improve things, manual tugging is my main technique at present, tape tensioning devices depend on the tape holding on skin which is not perfectly dry, and I look forward to being able to use a tapeless method in due course.  I don't know if a topical cream to stimulate the few remaining nerve endings would be available.

post #24 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by mare54 View Post

You make a lot of sense with your statements.  I think one reason that no one is interested in doing such studies on older men, is that with most older men deficient in the male hormone, testosterone, there most likely is not the interest in doing the study!  If more older men were interested in such a study, it would have been done already.  Lacking such a study, your points make a lot of sense, since those are actually facts about the male sexual response in aging men.  What is sad is that when talking about the after effects of cutting a young baby boy or child, no one is talking about what can happen when he gets older, only that oh, it won't affect his sexual function as a grown male.  This is like saying well, if he can at least function, produce children, and get some pleasure out of it..... he works just fine!  I wonder why no one wants to hear the truth about how being cut actually affects the performance of his natural penis?  And how it just might affect his female partner?  That is the cruelty of it.  Yet people still defend it!


Actualy I think there would be a lot of interest in a study, but in our culture of sexual prudery, most people are too embarrassed to talk about it.  I think that for many older men, it is not so much a lack of testosterone and a lack of desire, but a lack of feeling and sensitivity that results in ever increasing difficulty reaching orgasm.  E.D. is only a part of the equation.  Delayed or absent ejaculation is the other part.

 

Mare, you are right to sound incredulous that the custom of circumcision is still defended by so many, but I put that down to ignorance (being uninformed), since the medical community has been, and still is very reluctant to tell the truth and inform their clients of the facts relating to the consequences of cutting off foreskins. It is a very lucrative part of their business.

 

post #25 of 46

At least you are doing something, rather than just giving up and settling.  But you are right that it takes a team effort, and in a team, there are two people who are involved and really care about each other.  I think it is a real shame for anyone to give up on solving a problem and especially if it could make a big difference in their relationship.  I just read that the most reported cases of sexual dysfunction (certainly many are not) are  of men who were born between 1945 and 1965, when the circumcision rate was at an all time high of 80%!  I think there is a clear correlation between these two facts.  I also read that the circumcision rate in the U.S. is about 32% now, and falling which is very good news.  IT's all about education and without being informed, this barbaric, unfair practice will continue to be done on helpless little baby boys around the country.  And Keith:  there is a product out there that is available called "Manhood", which is a cover for the penis, which is worn most of the day and night which claims it can help restore the sensitivity of the glans.  It's not expensive and it's endorsed by NORM.  Anything is worth a try!  Good Luck.

post #26 of 46

Unfortunately, aging does have it's bummers.  One of them is the drop off of testosterone for men which lowers their capacity for sexual performance as well as their libido.  It doesn't have to be that way, because it is an easy thing to do, for a man to get testosterone therapy today and it is very effective.  But, you are right the other side of the story is the desensitizing of the glans on a man with a circumcision.  There is more information out there about this now than ever before.  For a sexual organ that is supposed to by nature, be hidden, where it keeps it's moisture and is protected from chaffing from clothes, etc., circumcision alters that to be outside of the skin.  Very un natural and the effects of this on older men is undeniable!  Fortunately men can restore foreskin, but it is a tedious job and takes a long time.  Many men won't have the desire to go through all of that, but from what I have read, it is very successful.  The book, The Joy of Un circumcising, is a very informative book, and the part called "Mens Voices", is enough to bring you to tears!  I highly recommend it.

post #27 of 46

The frenulum is the key to it all. Cut that bad boy off and you're cutting off the part of the body scientifically proven to be fundamental to erection, ejaculation and urinary continence. Here's the story.

 

Sorrells et al (2007) showed that circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis, this may or may not include the frenulum depending on the nature of the cut but it is nonetheless a highly sensitive part. Sensitivity is only half the answer, what really matters is how that part is innervated.

 

Yang and Bradley (1999) showed that the frenulum is innervated almost exclusively by the perineal nerve, not the dorsal penile nerve - see figure 1. Where does the perineal nerve go?

 

Uchio et al (1999) showed that the two nerve routes are independent and reference other works to state:

“The motor efferents of the perineal nerve innervate the pelvic floor musculature, including the bulbocavernosus muscle.[8] The contribution of the perineal nerve to urinary continence and ejaculations have been well described.[4], [9] ... The frenulum, which is innervated by the perineal nerve has been shown clinically to require a lower threshold for induction of erection and ejaculation,[12] and histologically to have higher numbers of genital receptors than other areas of the penis.[13]"

 

If you need more convincing Apostolidis and Fowler (2002) presented a case report of a guy whose perineal nerve was damaged during vasectomy - his dorsal nerve was completely fine, and yet "The patient reported the absence of reflexogenic and morning erections but preserved psychogenic erections, decreased ejaculatory force and orgasmic ability. He had also had secondary depression"

 

I've been arguing about this with urologists for years for my own case. I finally found one that believed me but of course there was nothing he could do for me. If you can use the results of my investigations to publicise these medical facts and stop people circumcising then please do.

 

Uchio's references:

4. Dick, H. C., Bradley, W. E., Scott, F. B. and Timm, G. W.: Pudendal sexual reflexes: electrophysiologic investigations. Urology, 3: 376, 1973.

8. Takahashi, M. and Sato, T.: Innervation of the anterior perineal muscles and its morphological consideration. Anat. Anz., 158: 65, 1985.

9. Shafik, A.: Perineal nerve stimulation for urinary sphincter control. Experimental study. Urol. Res., 22: 151, 1994.

12. Sarkarati, M., Rossier, A. and Fam, B.: Experience in vibratory and electroejaculation techniques in spinal cord injury patients: a preliminary report. J. Urol., 138: 59, 1987.

13. Halata, Z. and Munger, B.: The neuroanatomical basis for the protopathic sensibility of the human glans penis. Brain Res., 371: 205, 1986.

 

 

post #28 of 46

Steve, That's as good a hypothesis as I've heard. From what I've read so far, reading between the lines, both Yang and Uchio used circumcised men for subjects. Is that true? It would certainly skew their results. Nonetheless, they seem to have found a link even using mutilated penises. The newest of the articles you cite regarding the perineal nerve is 2002. I have to wonder what has been done since?  

post #29 of 46

Thank you for all that information. I asked my husband why more men are not speaking out about these things, and he told me, well men are trained from little boys not to cry.  So I guess that means that they are also trained to refrain from complaining about these things and most of them, just plain don't talk about it.

post #30 of 46

don't know yet if i am having a little boy or girl but i have made it clear to my hubby that i dont want our son cut. this has become a touchy area with him because he does want our boy cut. his reason , he dont want his boys to look different than him. i try to explain what cutting will do to to our sons later in life if we have it done. i dont have any thing to really back me up thou as i have not really looked up any books or papers showing the effects of cutting. i know in my heart of hearts it does effect men thou . i cant till you how much trouble it must be causing for us in the bedroom at night. any links to some good websites on this subject?

post #31 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosstitchgirl View Post

don't know yet if i am having a little boy or girl but i have made it clear to my hubby that i dont want our son cut. this has become a touchy area with him because he does want our boy cut. his reason , he dont want his boys to look different than him. i try to explain what cutting will do to to our sons later in life if we have it done. i dont have any thing to really back me up thou as i have not really looked up any books or papers showing the effects of cutting. i know in my heart of hearts it does effect men thou . i cant till you how much trouble it must be causing for us in the bedroom at night. any links to some good websites on this subject?


this article is for you, only.  http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html 

 

gotta run.  check the sticky for more resources but you probably need to back off, maybe way off, for a while, depending on how pregnant you are.

 

sus

 

post #32 of 46

Does anyone know any current information about the company "Foregen" (I think that is the spelling)?  Supposedly it is a company looking to do a trial on foreskin regeneration and it sounds very interesting.

post #33 of 46

A good way of looking at it is that a penis is a very delicate piece of equipment and its not designed to have pieces carved off it.

 
post #34 of 46

I wish more there was more of this discussion, really. Many of the mothers of circed boys that debate elsewhere contend that their sons made it through the procedure "just fine" and they have no problems whatsoever.

 

But do they have a crystal ball? How will it affect their son's sex life? Will it contribute to ED and other problems later in life? That's what astounds me. He won't be a little kid forever.

post #35 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by japonica View Post

I wish more there was more of this discussion, really. Many of the mothers of circed boys that debate elsewhere contend that their sons made it through the procedure "just fine" and they have no problems whatsoever.

But do they have a crystal ball? How will it affect their son's sex life? Will it contribute to ED and other problems later in life? That's what astounds me. He won't be a little kid forever.

I agree. Some of my girlfriends circed their babies and they have a spiel about how he came back from the procedure not even crying. They then struggle to breastfeed and have to rip at his little penis at every diaper change to avoid adhesions. So sick. I can't imagine how one feels about their privates if every diaper change is painful.
post #36 of 46

I think one of the biggest reasons I'm a bit of an outsider here is because of my distaste for so many studies posted as evidence against circumcision.  This study size is too small to be relevant, and if someone pro-circ posted a study showing that the foreskin caused some kind of harm (cancer, for instance), then it would be dismissed because of the sample size.

There's a lot of speculation on this issue, but not really any hard evidence.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by erin23kate View Post

http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/shen1/

 

[Erectile function evaluation after adult circumcision]

[Article in Chinese]

Shen Z, Chen S, Zhu C, Wan Q, Chen Z.

Department of Urology,
First Affiliated Hospital, School of Medicine,
Zhejiang University,
Hangzhou, Zhejiang 310003,
China.
shenzhj@mail.hz.zj.cn

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the erectile function of adults after circumcision.

METHODS: Ninty-five patients were investigated on erectile function by questionnaire before and after circumcision, respectively.

RESULTS: Eighteen patients suffered from mild erectile dysfunction before circumcision, and 28 suffered from mild or moderate erectile dysfunction after circumcision (P = 0.001). Adult circumcision appeared to have resulted in weakened erectile confidence in 33 cases (P = 0.04), difficult insertion in 41 cases (P = 0.03), prolonged intercourse in 31 cases (P = 0.04) and improved satisfaction in 34 cases (P = 0.04).

CONCLUSIONS: Adult circumcision has certain effect on erectile function, to which more importance should be attached.

PMID: 14979200 [PubMed - in process]

[CIRP Comment: This study, unfortunately, was published in Chinese. We have only the English language abstract to guide us. Circumcision is uncommon in China, so these 95 men apparently were circumcised to treat a medical condition with a problem prepuce. Circumcision resulted in erectile dysfunction in 28 (28.4%), weakened erectile confidence in 33 (34.7%) difficult insertion in 41 (43.1%), prolonged intercourse in 31 (32.6%), and improved satisfaction in 34 (35.7%). It is likely that the inproved satisfaction resulted from being freed of the medical condition and the problem prepuce, not from the circumcision. This study tends to confirm the earlier findings of Fink et al.]



 

post #37 of 46

If this were the case, why can men get erections throughout puberty and most of their adult life?  Further, if this were the case, why do drugs like viagra and cialis (which work on the blood vessels) restore sexual function for so many men?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveBennett View Post

The frenulum is the key to it all. Cut that bad boy off and you're cutting off the part of the body scientifically proven to be fundamental to erection, ejaculation and urinary continence. Here's the story.

 

Sorrells et al (2007) showed that circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis, this may or may not include the frenulum depending on the nature of the cut but it is nonetheless a highly sensitive part. Sensitivity is only half the answer, what really matters is how that part is innervated.

 

Yang and Bradley (1999) showed that the frenulum is innervated almost exclusively by the perineal nerve, not the dorsal penile nerve - see figure 1. Where does the perineal nerve go?

 

Uchio et al (1999) showed that the two nerve routes are independent and reference other works to state:

“The motor efferents of the perineal nerve innervate the pelvic floor musculature, including the bulbocavernosus muscle.[8] The contribution of the perineal nerve to urinary continence and ejaculations have been well described.[4], [9] ... The frenulum, which is innervated by the perineal nerve has been shown clinically to require a lower threshold for induction of erection and ejaculation,[12] and histologically to have higher numbers of genital receptors than other areas of the penis.[13]"

 

If you need more convincing Apostolidis and Fowler (2002) presented a case report of a guy whose perineal nerve was damaged during vasectomy - his dorsal nerve was completely fine, and yet "The patient reported the absence of reflexogenic and morning erections but preserved psychogenic erections, decreased ejaculatory force and orgasmic ability. He had also had secondary depression"

 

I've been arguing about this with urologists for years for my own case. I finally found one that believed me but of course there was nothing he could do for me. If you can use the results of my investigations to publicise these medical facts and stop people circumcising then please do.

 

Uchio's references:

4. Dick, H. C., Bradley, W. E., Scott, F. B. and Timm, G. W.: Pudendal sexual reflexes: electrophysiologic investigations. Urology, 3: 376, 1973.

8. Takahashi, M. and Sato, T.: Innervation of the anterior perineal muscles and its morphological consideration. Anat. Anz., 158: 65, 1985.

9. Shafik, A.: Perineal nerve stimulation for urinary sphincter control. Experimental study. Urol. Res., 22: 151, 1994.

12. Sarkarati, M., Rossier, A. and Fam, B.: Experience in vibratory and electroejaculation techniques in spinal cord injury patients: a preliminary report. J. Urol., 138: 59, 1987.

13. Halata, Z. and Munger, B.: The neuroanatomical basis for the protopathic sensibility of the human glans penis. Brain Res., 371: 205, 1986.

 

 



 

post #38 of 46

I don't think that studies are even necessary or pertinent.  The science is solid on the purposes of natural foreskin and with all the ED in our society it isn't rocket science to figure out the negative effects of choppiing off an important part of a mans sexual anatomy!  A first grader could understand why cutting on a baby's body is wrong.........forget the "studies"........look at what makes sense.

post #39 of 46

I agree.  The Sorrells study (linked above) states that the five most sensitive locations on a normal penis are lost to circumcision.  Fewer nerves = diminished function.  Secondly, as mentioned previously, the glans becomes an external organ, which causes it's surface skin to become keratinized and many times thicker, burying what nerves there are; mostly located on the sulcus).  This process is ongoing and the affect are cumulative.  That is why we continualy hear young (circumcised) men proclaim that their sex life is fantastic, but ask him how he's doing when he hits 60!!

 

Also, E.D. is just one part of the equation.  delayed or absent ejaculation affect many men, and I do believe that drugs such as Viagra do squat for that affliction.

post #40 of 46

So true.... Absent or delayed ejaculation problems are not uncommon problems in ED, but often not talked about. Viagra can work on the erection but often an ejaculation is not reached.  Testosterone replacement can be as effective as Viagra, but it has NO effect on the cumulative effects of sensation loss due to circumcision in the older man.

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