Dave Ramsey ... Inspring or Depressing?

[ilovemygirl]

I finally read Dave Ramsey's book and I'm really surprised by (well ok, I totally don't believe) all the references to people who make 30k a year but somehow pay off their six figure debt, their cars and manage to build up enough to pay for a house in a matter of a few years just by having garage sales, cutting cable and delivering a few pizzas at night. 

I feel like I'm missing something. I know these stories are supposed to be inspiring but being honest all it did was piss me off because I can't figure out how to make that happen for me and I'm really frustrated. 

I've gone Gazelle Intense to the max ... sold off things, significantly reduced expenses and added income. We've saved a lot and we've certainly made progress but nowhere near progress like that AND that's with making almost double 30k as the main income. 

I know there are a lot of DR followers on this board. What do you all think? Am I right that it's completely unrealistic or am I doing something wrong? 

[JamieCatheryn]

I agree, but he kinda intends to piss you off, make you mad at the debt like that will help you pinch more and throw more at paying stuff down. I found it depressing too until I looked at the progress we finally have been making, though I just know the DR principles and steps, haven't read his books. Sometimes it just takes more time than he says it should. 2 years max to pay down debts? Not feasible for us. It takes however long it takes, as long as there's positive progress I've learned to be happy with it.

[Denvergirlie]

Well I am going to piss you off as well then... Making around $40K a year, I paid off $30K of debt in 18 months.

Took a part time job cleaning offices on the weekends, drove alley's and collected scrap metal, had massive yard sales, even went dumpster diving. Bought storage units at auction and sold off all the stuff. Consignment clothing sales, craigslist, books on half.com, ebay, cashing in/ recylcing ink toner cartridges, recyling soda cans (dumpster diving...) 

Went to a bare bones budget and threw everything at the debt until is was gone. 2 tax returns went straight to debt as well as any scrap of money I could find to make the debt go away.

Sometimes, you can get creative and make additional income to throw at the debt, but I also have particapted in other forums where people just have to plod away at it.

If this doesn't motivate you, and you can not bring in any more additional income or cut the budget anyplace, then you just have to accept you are doing your best and let it go in terms of the additional stress.

best of luck

[seashells]

Well done, denvergirlie!!!!!!! Hats off to you.

OP, I'm like you :) It's gonna take me 25 years to do this thing :)

[ilovemygirl]

Thanks for replying ladies. I really appreciate it. You know, I thought I was asking a different question than my last few posts but I guess I'm really not because it all comes back to the same thing I've been trying to work out for a very long time now. I feel waaaaaay too overextended and I don't know what to do about it. 

I either have to give up the extra money and never feel financially secure or keep working the way I am and feel like a total crap wife and mother because we NEVER get to be together with our current work schedule. I really wish I could do what you say here ... 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denvergirlie 

If this doesn't motivate you, and you can not bring in any more additional income or cut the budget anyplace, then you just have to accept you are doing your best and let it go in terms of the additional stress.

I'm finding it impossible to let it go. Really impossible. I think about it all the time. I keep wondering why it's worked for some people and I just can't do it no matter how hard I try. I wonder if it's almost a borderline obsession at this point. I'd go to therapy to find out but that costs both time and money which is what my problem is ... lol.

I am impressed by all the things you've done. Do you still do all these things? How did/does your family handle it. Because again that's where I'm finding the trouble. I really thought paying off my cc debt was going to be this amazing life changing thing like DR makes it out to be but it came and went and now I'm just angry that I've worked so hard for seemingly nothing. So yeah, I've paid off my cc debt but I still don't have anything else to show for it. I'm still lightyears away from being able to afford a home or even a FFEF but the stamina just isn't there anymore to keep going like this. Do you feel that way at all? 

[seashells]

Originally Posted by ilovemygirl 

I'm finding it impossible to let it go. Really impossible. I think about it all the time. I keep wondering why it's worked for some people and I just can't do it no matter how hard I try. I wonder if it's almost a borderline obsession at this point. I'd go to therapy to find out but that costs both time and money which is what my problem is ... lol.

I am impressed by all the things you've done. Do you still do all these things? How did/does your family handle it. Because again that's where I'm finding the trouble. I really thought paying off my cc debt was going to be this amazing life changing thing like DR makes it out to be but it came and went and now I'm just angry that I've worked so hard for seemingly nothing. So yeah, I've paid off my cc debt but I still don't have anything else to show for it. I'm still lightyears away from being able to afford a home or even a FFEF but the stamina just isn't there anymore to keep going like this. Do you feel that way at all? 

I'm not denvergirlie and I'm very curious about her answer. What is it like on the other side?

But I don't have any cc debt, like you, and I don't exactly feel like I won a prize for it. I'm still hanging on by a thread like everyone else. I don't have a car loan. No fireworks here, I'm still just hanging on. Where is all this freedom? It's not over the next hill ($10k in EF) nor the one after (student loans). I don't even have a plan for retirement; I guess I'm in the dog food crowd. When I pay off my mortgage, will I get the prize?

Maybe I shouldn't even say this since it's kind of depressing, but my MIL said something last month that was kind of a downer. MIL is frugal and responsible, in a way I admire (not miserly but just really responsible). She married her current husband 12 years ago and they bought a new house and did a 15 year mortgage. Didn't prepay it, but anyway, in about 2.5 years she'll be done. I mentioned that to her and she said yeah, she thought it would be a big deal but now that it's approaching I guess it's not. Maybe because medical costs are going higher and they just see that they'll just need the mortgage payment in their daily living expenses, so it's not like it's all this extra free money they are going to go to Bahamas with. I guess in 2.5 years they'll be needing it. And I'm thinking that's the way it's going to be for us too.

However, we're not going the denvergirlie route. I don't mind the extra work - heck, I'd relish the challenge. But I should have done it all before being a mom. I am choosing to live my life the way it is so I can spend more time and energy with my DD. I really admire those who have the guts, stamina, motivation, and follow-through to take on the challenge though. So I'm doing half of the work - being frugal, buying nothing but what we need. But I'm not killing myself earning extra money, and that's the half of the equation I'm missing.

(BTW for the record, I did make some attempt to get a part time job for a specific opportunity that came up, but I had to discuss it with my boss due to a potential conflict of interest, and he vetoed it. But I was willing to do more work when a good situation came up, but it was vetoed, so that was that).

[HollyBearsMom]

I guess its the eye on the prize kind of thing.  What are you doing with the money you used to put towards the CC? If owning a home is *really* important to you that that should be the prize.  

Yes, you paid of the CC debt but that debt was really not your money to begin with.  You borrowed it to get immediate results-maybe food, shelter, neccessities but maybe not. Life does not change "overnight" when you pay off debt unless everyhting else was already great and all you had was the CC debt. You need to take that money and start saving (to avoid more debt in case something goes wrong) and then start prioritizing. Yes, you may be years away from owing a home but if thats your prize its worth it.  If its not-what is? Thats why DR says its fantastic to pay it all off because you can then use that money to start fulfilling your ultimate goals.

I am on the other side.  It took me 10 years but we are debt free (except mortgage), own our home, have $$ in the bank and I am finally a SAHM (our ultimate goal)!! However our "lifestyle" hasn't changed.  We still scrimp and save, are frugal, live within our means, etc. Seeing a "0" balance when the bills come in is an awesome thing.

[ilovemygirl]

SeaShells - Thank you so much for your post. You beautifully articulated exactly what I meant. That it seems it's never done and if I want the basic things the DR plan discusses like a home and retirement savings, I will have to keep going on like this forever. It just never ends. As soon as you pay off cc debt, there's the car, then the EF, then rebuilding the EF when you have an emergency, and it just keeps going and going. 

HollyBears - I get the question about where my cc debt money is going often. That is a HUGE part of my frustration. That money is not money that we just have sitting around from dh's income that is now free. It is money I'm working two jobs for on both nights and weekends. If I want to see my family, I lose that money. It's that simple. I can't have both and that's where my original question about how people making a modest income can achieve anything long term comes from. When you only make a modest income, there is no leftover, even when you are careful and budget and scrimp and never have anything special.

Right now, I'm putting that money towards our car loan and dental bills. But, it's only going to be for so long that I can keep this up. I've mentioned on this board before how much DH is NOT on board with this. He'd rather be in debt and have us be together. I'm exhausted both physically and emotionally and I've been trucking on for two years like this. I don't waste anything. I don't want anything extravagant, I just want to go to bed at night without worrying about finances and yeah I'd like to have dinner with my dh & dd once in a while. IMO, DR leads people to believe that once their consumer debt is gone there will be all this money just laying around to snowball into other things like retirement and home buying but he's saying it right there in the book himself that the only way to get that money if you are low or moderate income is to work extra. I believe he estimates 7-8 years for a FFEF, the amounts he wants for retirement and college and a 20% down payment on a home. I cannot spend 7-8 years working 7 days a week. 

I feel like I'm rambling and can't get out in typing what I want to say. Thanks again for the replies. 

[seashells]

We struggle with the same thing.

I think that being completely debt-free including the mortgage probably reduces a substantial amount of pressure almost no matter what.

But you're not flying off into the sunset in your own learjet unless you're income-wealthy as well. I think DR directs most of his advice toward people who have some extra cushion in their income but who blow it on toys (4 wheelers, boat, whatever) and lattes. I'm not going to try to claim that it's easier for them, because they have their own challenges, but it's a different challenge. And when they are done, they can take their big fat debt snowball which probably exceeds our entire salary and bam! Go to Vegas. Bam! Buy a little boat. Bam! Trip to Paris.

If you shook a magic wand at my family and made us debt free TODAY, we would not be in Paris in July. We'd be able to loosen our belts a little. Maybe go out to eat a couple times a month. Maybe our clothes would not all come from Goodwill or even Walmart. (Imagine my surprise when I heard that Old Navy is supposed to be a sort of lower-income clothing shop - it's certainly out of my range except for the clearance rack, which is full of size 0s and I'm... not).

If DH and I are frugal, then DH's sister is the opposite. She doesn't worry one sweat about money. She was unemployed for months and still went on vacation and had mani/pedis. She went out to eat, played poker, bought gifts for people. She clearly makes more money than we do when she's employed but I have no idea how she does some of this stuff. I used to assume we were better off - I mean, clearly, right? We never had a car repo'd. And our car is ALWAYS registered, so we never get the cops pulling us over and writing us hefty tickets. All our i's are dotted and t's are crossed. And you know what? I don't know that our life is any less stressful than hers. I couldn't live the way she does because it would freak me out but she does it just fine. She gets stressed in the moment, but then it's over, and she doesn't worry about it anymore. It always works out one way or another. I mean, she's not living on the street or anything. She'll put it on the credit card or maybe MIL will help her out, or some check will come in just in time.

But I can't live like that. I'm just not built that way. For SIL it works. So maybe we look around and see people who don't plan ahead for anything, they buy whatever they want, they don't worry about whether they can afford it. And you and I think "I can't even afford that, even though I've been scrimping and saving - how can THEY afford it when they just blow their money on everything?" I think the answer is that the word "afford" is subjective. Can I afford a mani-pedi? No, because in my mind, that would subtract from my emergency fund and/or sinking funds that I need. But SIL would look at my bank account and say "damn, girl, you got $3k, you're loaded, let's go." OK, she would not say that but I'm in that sort of mood. Anyway, I don't see $3k, I see $750 for car work that is already spent in my mind (needs brakes, tranny work, and a full set of new tires - poof, it's gone) and $100 for a life insurance premium that's coming at the end of the year and I've only saved 25% of. And this and that and that - the money is already GONE in my mind. But I don't have a dime on a credit card (ok, well, I do, but I grab my points and pay it off in full every month, sometimes twice a month).

SIL feels like her life is more fulfilling when she has her mani-pedi, even if she has to call MIL for help sometimes.

DH and I feel more fulfilled without the mani-pedi, but knowing that we don't have to call anybody (or even just whip out the card) if the car breaks down or one of us needs a CAT scan.

So that's our prize. That's it. The end. We don't get a learjet.

The question is - and it's a legit question - is it enough?

Do you want to live like my SIL? If you do (and many, many people would rather live like my SIL than like me, and that's reasonable) then really, don't worry about it. You will survive. My SIL is surviving just fine.

If you don't? Then relish it :) Be responsible. Enjoy it. Have spreadsheets adding up every dime you have. That's your prize. I'd rather have the learjet ending but I guess I'll take my world of spreadsheets over Las Vegas, mani-pedis, hiding my own mail from myself, sobbing calls to my mom every now and then. It's not a clear choice, it's just how I'm built.

[happysmileylady]

Originally Posted by ilovemygirl 

SeaShells - Thank you so much for your post. You beautifully articulated exactly what I meant. That it seems it's never done and if I want the basic things the DR plan discusses like a home and retirement savings, I will have to keep going on like this forever. It just never ends. As soon as you pay off cc debt, there's the car, then the EF, then rebuilding the EF when you have an emergency, and it just keeps going and going. 

HollyBears - I get the question about where my cc debt money is going often. That is a HUGE part of my frustration. That money is not money that we just have sitting around from dh's income that is now free. It is money I'm working two jobs for on both nights and weekends. If I want to see my family, I lose that money. It's that simple. I can't have both and that's where my original question about how people making a modest income can achieve anything long term comes from. When you only make a modest income, there is no leftover, even when you are careful and budget and scrimp and never have anything special.

Right now, I'm putting that money towards our car loan and dental bills. But, it's only going to be for so long that I can keep this up. I've mentioned on this board before how much DH is NOT on board with this. He'd rather be in debt and have us be together. I'm exhausted both physically and emotionally and I've been trucking on for two years like this. I don't waste anything. I don't want anything extravagant, I just want to go to bed at night without worrying about finances and yeah I'd like to have dinner with my dh & dd once in a while. IMO, DR leads people to believe that once their consumer debt is gone there will be all this money just laying around to snowball into other things like retirement and home buying but he's saying it right there in the book himself that the only way to get that money if you are low or moderate income is to work extra. I believe he estimates 7-8 years for a FFEF, the amounts he wants for retirement and college and a 20% down payment on a home. I cannot spend 7-8 years working 7 days a week. 

I feel like I'm rambling and can't get out in typing what I want to say. Thanks again for the replies. 

Well I think the two things I bolded are the answer to your questions actually.

CC debt is not the only debt Dave Ramsey talks about paying off, he's talking about allll of it, including cars, dental and medical bills too.  So, really, you aren't to the part of "freedom" yet. 

But, once you get there, you ARE free to do exactly what your DH wants, which is come home and stop working and be together.  The "freedom" being referred to isn't necessarily the freedom to spend your money on whatever you want.  It's the freedom to have more choices, including the choice to make less money. 

Also, I tend to think that he really operates on the assumption that most people tend to make more money as time goes on.  Because for the most part, that's true.  A 22 year old fresh out of school with their BA is probably going to be making less than someone who has another 20 years of experience.   I have heard him advocate on his show for plans for long term income growth.  To set goals that are likely to result in people making more money in five years or ten years than they are today. 
 

[cappuccinosmom]

But, once you get there, you ARE free to do exactly what your DH wants, which is come home and stop working and be together. The "freedom" being referred to isn't necessarily the freedom to spend your money on whatever you want. It's the freedom to have more choices, including the choice to make less money.

]

This.

I find DR inspiring. We don't agree with him on every single point, but I cry every Friday when I listen to the debt-free hollers. When you have zero debt--and that includes student loans and cars--you are much more free. And when you kill the mortgage, it's even better. We are not living the high life, though, even being debt free. We have to be frugal to remain debt free. We're not (at this point) looking at retiring as millionaires. But we do appreciate not getting stress stomach aches wondering if the next income check is going to hit the bank before we have to pay the next bill or the property taxes we owe.

Until that debt is gone,some people may only have one option, and that is to take extra work. Because you can't do much about 60K in debt if your income is 20K.

Honestly, you have an anchor dragging you down, and it's not Dave Ramsey. It is your husband. I wouldn't be happy or very motivated either given that situation. It is very hard to do the gazelle intense thing when someone you are sharing finances with is actively wanting to do the opposite.

[mtm]

I think you're getting overwhelmed in the details right now. Seriously, work the step you're on. From bs2 it looks so overwhelming to see the rest of the steps looming over you. And realize that some of the success stories were people with no kids, or tons of family to help them out etc. Not everyone has that. We took 2 full years to pay off our debt and it was a hard slog for us but we made the choice not to go as extreme as some of the people in the book or Denvergirl. I picked up a job and then just worked and reworked the budget to make it happen. And if DR's not for you, try Gail vax Oxlade or Mary Hunt or Suze Orman, they have similar plans but may appeal more to you.

[mnnice]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom 

But, once you get there, you ARE free to do exactly what your DH wants, which is come home and stop working and be together. The "freedom" being referred to isn't necessarily the freedom to spend your money on whatever you want. It's the freedom to have more choices, including the choice to make less money.

]

This.

I find DR inspiring. We don't agree with him on every single point, but I cry every Friday when I listen to the debt-free hollers. When you have zero debt--and that includes student loans and cars--you are much more free. And when you kill the mortgage, it's even better. We are not living the high life, though, even being debt free. We have to be frugal to remain debt free. We're not (at this point) looking at retiring as millionaires. But we do appreciate not getting stress stomach aches wondering if the next income check is going to hit the bank before we have to pay the next bill or the property taxes we owe.

Until that debt is gone,some people may only have one option, and that is to take extra work. Because you can't do much about 60K in debt if your income is 20K.

Honestly, you have an anchor dragging you down, and it's not Dave Ramsey. It is your husband. I wouldn't be happy or very motivated either given that situation. It is very hard to do the gazelle intense thing when someone you are sharing finances with is actively wanting to do the opposite.

ITA with this post.  DH and I read Total Money Makeover in Dec of 2004.  Most people would have thought we had our acts together at that point and wouldn't have needed Dave Ramsey's not particularly orginal ideas very much.  We were determined to get out of all debt (including our mortgage) and not borrow any more money again. We paid off our mortgage in May of 2006.  Anyway it happened because we were on the same page working towards the same goal. For me having a partner that was not on board would be a source of anxiety because I know we could be one mindless purchase away from destroying months of hard work.
 

[ilovemygirl]

I just had this huge post that I somehow lost

Just to be clear, I have never lived nor do I ever aspire to live the high life. I've actually been told I'm too frugal and extreme on this board before. I am also not afraid of hard work, I have already done it. I have worked tirelessly for over two years to cut every expense, pinch every penny and add income to the point I am working seven days a week and never see my family AND I am doing this in spite of opposition from friends, family and even my own husband. I just had to crush my dh's heart by telling him we can't afford IVF and he can't be a father again. It was the right thing to do financially but I don't think he will ever see it as anything but me putting money ahead of family. I don't know, maybe DR would tell me I'm not being gazelle enough and I should stop my pity party but it seems very unfair that I was forced to make an impossible choice like that, a choice that many people never even have to give a thought to.

Anyway, I think my original thing was that DR doesn't make clear that even though these successes worked really hard they also had everything going for them like family helping out, no medical problems, greater income potential than average, etc. It's kind of like the little disclaimer thing on the weight loss ads about results not being typical. At it's best, the program provides those results but they aren't promised to everyone or even most. DR, imo leads you to believe that if you just stop being stupid with money and work really hard for a couple of years, you are guaranteed to be able to work through the steps of his program but that's just not true. It doesn't account for lack of support, low income levels and just plain old crap luck.

[happysmileylady]

I do have to say, DR is ALL about having kids and putting the debt snowball on hold to have them.  Having done IVF myself I have paid very close attention to his answer to callers on the show who are doing fertility treatments or adopting.  He's not all that supportive of going into debt to do it, but he's very supportive of stopping all snowballing to save money to pay for the fertility treatments or whatever.  Dave Ramsey is very much a family over money type of person. 

[Thystle]

Originally Posted by ilovemygirl 

I just had this huge post that I somehow lost

Just to be clear, I have never lived nor do I ever aspire to live the high life. I've actually been told I'm too frugal and extreme on this board before. I am also not afraid of hard work, I have already done it. I have worked tirelessly for over two years to cut every expense, pinch every penny and add income to the point I am working seven days a week and never see my family AND I am doing this in spite of opposition from friends, family and even my own husband. I just had to crush my dh's heart by telling him we can't afford IVF and he can't be a father again. It was the right thing to do financially but I don't think he will ever see it as anything but me putting money ahead of family. I don't know, maybe DR would tell me I'm not being gazelle enough and I should stop my pity party but it seems very unfair that I was forced to make an impossible choice like that, a choice that many people never even have to give a thought to.

Anyway, I think my original thing was that DR doesn't make clear that even though these successes worked really hard they also had everything going for them like family helping out, no medical problems, greater income potential than average, etc. It's kind of like the little disclaimer thing on the weight loss ads about results not being typical. At it's best, the program provides those results but they aren't promised to everyone or even most. DR, imo leads you to believe that if you just stop being stupid with money and work really hard for a couple of years, you are guaranteed to be able to work through the steps of his program but that's just not true. It doesn't account for lack of support, low income levels and just plain old crap luck.

{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I want to gently point out that NO ONE is forcing you to make that choice. Especially not Dave. You are an adult and are free to make your own choices. Yes some are more financially "responsible" than others... but they are still YOUR choices.

When you look back in 20-50 years... will you be proud or devasted by the choices/sacrifices you have made? THAT reaction is most telling. Follow your gut.

Maybe you should set DR aside for a minute and read, "Your Money or Your Life". Many on here have read both and it might give you a different outlook.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

[crazyms]

I don't have any real experience with DR. The only thing I know about his plan is the basics of it posted on the get out of debt thread here. I think it looks like a good plan but we aren't all on the same page budget wise. We don't all have the same income, expenses, life issues or debts. We don't all want/need the same things out of life so budgeting is going to be very different for everyone. I think the biggest factor to successful budgeting and planning is to have the goal at the end. This can be anything just whatever is important to you (whether it's a new house, bigger house, car, manis every week, boat, etc.). If you really want a house then that is your goal. I'd set a goal to get to the house. Forget the rest of the details figure out how to get to the house. Is it working more or keeping up working like you are? Is it cutting the budget in other areas? If you really just want more time at home then make that your goal. Find ways to do without the income or cut the budget. Maybe there are ways you can save your family money by being at home (like line drying clothes, cooking more from scratch etc). Do you plan on putting dd in school and how old is she? Maybe it'd be better for your family for you to have the time home with her until she starts school and then work harder on paying off the debt. I don't really know what to tell you but I do understand the stress of feeling like it never gets you anywhere. My dream is a house. Not a big or fancy house just a nice decent warm home of my own for my kids. Dh and I have been together almost 8 years and well... I have no house. I've even drastically reduced what I want in a house over the years and what I want now would be cheaper than what I wanted then but I still don't have even that. I've about sacrificed everything I could from what I want and still am no where near getting it. I'm working hard on it but some days I feel like I'll never get there those are the days that I have to sit down and look at things again to see how far we have gotten. We're not rich and it takes us a long time to get things done especially big things so I understand how hard it can be to keep the faith during the long haul.