I could use some advice here (a bit long).

[karne]

I am emotional and struggling here a little, and I'm hoping for some feedback.  I'm worried that I will sound offensive when writing this, so please forgive me if I do.  My ds is 8, and in 2nd grade.  He is bright, has a gifted IQ,  and has recently started to be treated for ADD.  We are using medication after a long time of trying other interventions.  Believe me, it's the last thing I thought we'd do, but frankly, in a short period of time the improvement to his quality of life at school is dramatic.  I have old threads on here about handwriting, behavior, etc.  All of this has been impacted for the better by beginning treatment.  

My ds has been bumped "down" to a mid-level language arts block in school.  He has been in the top tier since kindy.  The reason, as I understand it, is that his reading speed (possibly fluency) is slower than the top group, and he was slower to finish-or not finish reading/writing tasks.  It is primarily based on testing of reading speed.  I completely understand this.  Staying on task, completing work...all of this has been impacted by ADD.  However, this is a child who is never less than 95% on any standardized test.  And, he doesn't test well due to attention issues.

I had the opportunity to observe the language arts group today, and this is where I want to tread carefully.  I want to be open to the idea that ds could benefit in some way from his new group, but truly, this was not what I saw.  How he thinks, his connections, his knowledge, his verbal processing, did not fit with this group at all.  He was not challenged.  I think worse for me to see, was that he wasn't engaged.  In his old group, the kids think and make connections quickly...there was give and take.  There was none of that in this new group.  He stood out.  I had a pit in my stomach watching it.

I gave my observations to the teacher.  It didn't feel like a good fit to me, but I feel like the pushy mom who wants her kid to be seen for how smart he is.  It was clear that the reading assessments guide group placement, and it doesn't feel like there is movement here.  It is speed, not comprehension.  So what does that mean for a kid like my ds who is starting to have ADD issues treated, and may not have the speed of the top of the class any longer (he used to, but he's fallen to the upper middle of the class).  

This is a big block at school, and the groups represent differentiation.  This is the first time ds has been out of a top level group, and I guess it would bother me less if it was about more than speed and written production.  I can see that point of view, but where it has ended up placing my ds seems to be a less than challenging or engaging place for him.  To be frank, I don't think he's with his peers.  Gosh, that sounds obnoxious, but it's how I feel, and I'm certain his teacher knows it as well.

I guess this is more of a vent than anything.  I don't want to have gone through all of what it took to get DS started on treatment for ADD, to have him in a less than challenging academic situation.  I'm just really unhappy with this., yet perhaps I need to sit back and watch what improves as the ADD is addressed, and see what falls out.  He's also been bumped down to the lower spelling group, but I don't see him as a natural speller.  Because of the ADD, he doesn't work at all on the spelling material in school.  He tends to memorize the words the morning of the test and get between 85-95% on the tests, but in terms of actual writing he isn't an accomplished speller.  Perhaps this is a reason for lowering his spelling test expectations?

So, help please!  Am I just being a worrywart here?  I don't feel good about this, and I feel pushy.  It's just sitting poorly with me, and I could use some feedback.  I don't usually post such personal information.  TIA.

[Guinevere]

First off, hugs. I don't think you come off as obnoxious -- you come across as a parent who wants their child to be intellectually engaged by school. That's entirely reasonable.

Now, I can't speak to what your options are regarding getting him moved to a different reading group, but as a parent who also has a gifted kiddo recently medicated for ADD (and wow, has it ever made a positive difference!), I did want to throw out a few thoughts about the concept of a group placement where the student is clearly at the top of the heap, so to speak.

I have seen a similar dynamic with my oldest DS in several of his academic subjects at various times over the past few years, and I can honestly say that, for him at least, there has been value in such a grouping. In these situations, my DS functions in more of a mentor role in the group, both reflecting back and challenging the thinking of others, as well as being in the position to have to clarify and support his own arguments about the reading. These skills are valuable and absolutely engage his mind. And he views his contribution in those settings just as positively as when he is in a group of all peers at his level.

Now, if this is all he were doing at school, all day long, he would be quite bored and behavioral issues would (and have, in the past) arise. But if it's just for one subject area, you may want to consider the benefits as well as the challenges of the grouping, and encourage your DS to do the same.

Repeated practice in settings like these has enabled my DS to become an excellent communicator and tutor, while at the same time, it has also solidified and strengthened his own knowledge base.

I say all this with the caveat that my children attend a charter school with a curriculum that welcomes and encourages mentoring relationships between students; your mileage may vary with a teacher who isn't as interested in fostering that dynamic.

Just some food for thought... :)

Kind regards,

Guin

[serenbat]

regardless (not being mean here) of your feeling what are your options as far as staying at the school you are currently at?

what is the school offering- is it one group or the other?

if you do the lower group are they doing anything to give him any extra help? is this long term to the end of the term?

do you really get a say in him staying in that group? if you said NO, what would they do?

those should be the first issues that you need answers to better assist you

[elus0814]

Does he like that group? Does he enjoy not having to push himself and be 'on the top of the heap' all the time? 

I don't think you should force the teacher to change his group if the teacher doesn't think that's best. You could try to find another school. Maybe he didn't do well on the reading speed test and you could request a retest? Maybe he purposely didn't do well on it so he could be in an easier group? Maybe he used to be advanced and other kids are now academically beyond him? 

I ask all this because I was always in advanced groups as a child then once I purposely bombed a placement test so I could be in an easier group for awhile. It was great. I did work that was really easy for me and I was given the same grade.

I wouldn't base anything on standardized test since the percentiles are based on old test results. More than 5% of kids are 95th percentile and above since percentile scores are based on tests given to kids years ago. Same with IQ, scores keep going up until the test is re-normed. Also, some children are just good at test taking but don't do as well in the classroom.

I'm not sure how to say this nicely but have you perhaps been pushing for him to be put in advanced groups in the past because you see him as gifted when in reality he's not and is now being put in the correct group?

[TiredX2]

My decision would be based almost entirely on the effect this group placement is having on your son.

Has he commented?  Do they read different books in the different groups, or just have different discussions?  Does he identify langauge as his particular skill or is he more cautious around literature studies?  Is he enjoying being a leader in the new group, or did he enjoy the interactions in the old group more?  When he was in the higher group was he feeling slow or like he couldn't keep up, or was he able to compartimentalize his speed issues?

[KCMichigan]

Originally Posted by Guinevere 

First off, hugs. I don't think you come off as obnoxious -- you come across as a parent who wants their child to be intellectually engaged by school. That's entirely reasonable.

I have seen a similar dynamic with my oldest DS in several of his academic subjects at various times over the past few years, and I can honestly say that, for him at least, there has been value in such a grouping. In these situations, my DS functions in more of a mentor role in the group, both reflecting back and challenging the thinking of others, as well as being in the position to have to clarify and support his own arguments about the reading. These skills are valuable and absolutely engage his mind. And he views his contribution in those settings just as positively as when he is in a group of all peers at his level.

Repeated practice in settings like these has enabled my DS to become an excellent communicator and tutor, while at the same time, it has also solidified and strengthened his own knowledge base.

Originally Posted by elus0814 

Does he like that group? Does he enjoy not having to push himself and be 'on the top of the heap' all the time? 

I don't think you should force the teacher to change his group if the teacher doesn't think that's best. You could try to find another school. Maybe he didn't do well on the reading speed test and you could request a retest? Maybe he purposely didn't do well on it so he could be in an easier group? 

Ditto these portions of the two above posters.

Speed actually does make a difference, regardless of abilities. A student can be thinking, processing, and learning at a high level---but there is a certain frustration if they are not able to constantly complete work in the time allotted. I am not talking speed reading or writing, but if the entire group is finishing work and he is lagging behind on the written/reading portion that can be very frustrating if you cant keep pace with the required written output even if the thought processes are there. It has no impact on his cognitive abilities, but being able to complete work can impact the ability to be successful in a certain groups.

Kids that do well on standardized tests/IQ are not always reflected in classwork. You would be surprised at how many kids with high-gifted IQ fit in w/ A & Bs in a classroom and how many high-average kids also get A& Bs. Same w/ standardized tests a child may test well or poorly not matter their cognitive abilities. IQ tests and standardized tests do not allow for individual learning styles and differences in attention/interest/speed/and though processes. As a teacher- sometimes the standardized test results are surprising (kids you expect to do well dont and kids you think will struggle do well). Classroom dynamics play a large role in achievement as well- a loud/busy class can make it hard for kids that are distractable, a hands-on class may make it hard for a shy student to get involved, a class with a lot or writing may be difficult for a child that struggles with writing....all regardless of IQ.

Also, many gifted kids are globally gifted across the board. but, not all, every kids is individual....Regardless of IQ/standardized testing, some kids do well in particular areas like math, reading, writing, art, etc.and only need acceleration in one or two areas (vs all) to meet their needs (cognitive , social, and academic).

There is something  also to be said about being at the 'top of the heap'. If it is done right, a child that previously struggled (with task completion) may find new confidence and self-assurance in success and being able to model for others. Though it may seem trivial-- self esteem also plays a role.

Have you screened him for written disabilities? Often some kids fly under the radar for written disabilites (learning disability) until they get to later grades and the difference in what they should (cognitively) do and what they do (achievement) gets greater. A gifted kiddo that struggles with writing or speed may have some visual or fine motor concerns or even a dysgraphia (written language disability). Often this is seen in 2/3/4th grade as more writing and reading is required and the student cant keep up even thought they can do the discussions/thought processes.

* I say this because it is likely I struggled with this* I was a highly gifted student (IQ wise) that REALLY struggled with writing. My writing technical skills , spelling, handwriting, and ability to put together a written piece was far below my cognitive abilities-- my vocabulary and thoughts that were expressed were articulate and at a high level , but the speed that was required to write and the grammatical/technical/spelling skill made it very very frustrating. In High School, I did not take advanced classes that involved writing due to this- I got more out of excelling  in the discussions/writings of the  'average' group than struggling to keep up with the technical/speed requirements of the faster paced classes. I was aware of my strengths/weaknesses and made this choice on purpose. Looking back  at my test results I *should* have been able to keep up per IQ and standardized testing in higher level classes--- but more closely done specific academic testing in 9th grade showed a great great disparity in my written language skills vs my ability (in face my written skills were below average for my age). Currently, I would have been dx with a written language disability/ADD and had been given modifications in the classroom---but 15 yrs ago it was not even thought of. At the time, I got writing tutoring and also learned better keyboarding skills and some techniques to recognize grammatical errors (read outloud, have someone else read it first, etc). I went on to do very well in college, though writing (technical not the actual thought processes) is not and likely never will be easy. It is frustrating to think things through, know them, talk about them....but have a hard time articulating them on paper.

Also- the school year is 3/4 over. I would leave it be for now unless HE is unhappy and allow him to super excel in that area and build some confidence, esp since he has met with more success for ADD treatment. Then discuss at the end of the year, placement for next Fall. Or in a few weeks, request a retest if he and you are not happy.

[VisionaryMom]

How much change is there? DS is only in K, but they potentially move reading groups each week. His teacher makes changes on Mondays. In 1st grade, it goes to every 2 weeks. The idea is that students hit starts and stops in their knowledge acquisition often at the younger grades, and there should be fluidity. So...if your son's school is similar, I would say to leave it. Once his medication is at a fully therapeutic level, give him time to adjust. His teacher may move him at some point in the future.

I also will say that I think reading speed matters a good bit. I don't think speed & fluency should be the only measures for reading groups, but being the kid everyone is waiting (impatiently) on to read something aloud, for example, can take its toll. 

[karne]

Thank you so much everyone!  I want to say, first, that I could just cry over these responses.  I never expected to have a conversation like this-you all just "get" this in a way that amazes me, and I am so grateful.

I want to read carefully through the responses again to make sure that I have taken in all of the points.  To answer just a few questions-no, I wouldn't say ds identifies language arts as his strength, although, again, on standardized testing over the past few years he has been 98-99% percentile. He really only reads 1-2 grade levels above his grade, so certainly not off the charts.  Comprehension is very strong. Stamina is definitely an issue for larger novel type reading material.  But, he will happily sit and read for several hours in order to finish something interesting.  

The writing piece has been a huge issue.  We have asked for OT input, he clearly writes (as in letter formation, readability) below where many of the other kids are.  OT does not see him for therapy, by their own assessment.  But fine motor, in terms of writing is an area of concern.  When we did the ADD assessment, there was a lot of focus on the "process" of writing, both in the act of writng a story, or non fiction piece, as well as just in terms of finishing work.  This was identified in the ADD dx.  We have just begun medication, but at this point, written work is starting to be completed, and legibility is increased.  It is definitely not a "content" issue, but more of a process issue.

FWIW, his current fluency rates are just under 120 WPM, which I think meets the standards expectations for the end of his grade.  It's not that he's behind, more that he hasn't been as fast.  

There isn't much change in terms of the make up of ability groupings.  Same kids have mostly been in the same places, with a little movement in and out.  

I think that there is a big ADD piece here.  In effect, ds has been cruising through school, participating in a fairly  minimal way with the academic curriculum because he has been so easily distracted.  He has great auditory skills, so that sort saved him, and he would get by in class, and taking tests based upon what he managed to catch.  His tests in class have been fine-mostly 100's in math.  Homework is never an issue because he does it independently in literally 10 mins. with no input from us at all.

I think that this is a really tender time-i can't emphasize enough how different school is now that we are treating the ADD.  I don't think we know yet what the full impact will be.  I'm not sure we really know what ds's capabilities really are.  We are really early into this.  I hear the suggestion of a wriitng disability or LD, and I want to think more about that.

What I hated to see, though, was a better "behaved", yet less engaged/challenged child.  That is not what we're aiming for.  Could be that the lower group will provide the time and space for ds to make up some missed skills...that would be a positive.  The problem, and here I go worrying about sounding obnoxious, is that the actual learning that takes place when you are challenged among your peers is missing.  Maybe that's OK for right now?

Thanks everyone--please, please, if you have more thoughts, supportive or challenging, please share them.  I deeply need this "conversation" .

[Guinevere]

Originally Posted by karne 
The problem, and here I go worrying about sounding obnoxious, is that the actual learning that takes place when you are challenged among your peers is missing.

It has already been pointed out that being in a same ability grouping is NOT the only place where actual learning occurs. I'm interested in your response to this.

Guin

[KCMichigan]

Originally Posted by karne 

T

What I hated to see, though, was a better "behaved", yet less engaged/challenged child.  That is not what we're aiming for.  Could be that the lower group will provide the time and space for ds to make up some missed skills...that would be a positive.  The problem, and here I go worrying about sounding obnoxious, is that the actual learning that takes place when you are challenged among your peers is missing.  Maybe that's OK for right now?

How do you know he was less engaged/challenged after one observation? Honestly, if the ADD was being treated- he may have spoken less and/or participated less for several reasons.

1. He is still adjusting to a new group (often kids participate less in new situations)

2. The medications that allow him to be better behaved- also may make him less likely to blurt out stuff or bounce around. That does not mean less engaged/challenged. He may actually have time to think more and be processing things instead of acting on impulses or daydreaming (both ADD symptoms). Was the less engaged behavior only during this time or all day? It if was all day- it is likely a result of ADD treatment. If it was only during LA block then it was probably situational

3. Poor behavior may have been a combination of ADD and frustration. Often behaviors are reduced when instruction levels are at an appropriate level(vs too high or too low)- some of that may be due to ADD treatment, but some improvement may be a result of the academic regrouping

4. That particular day is not a reflection of the greater picture. Did you see him less engaged/challenged in all subjects or just LA block? Observe again in a few weeks- see if things change. One observation often just gives a snapshot of that moment in time.

Neither 1 - 4 mean he is not learning or engaged- a child that observes & listens is also learning as much as the one that talks 50 miles a minute or is the loudest

Sometimes the best learning takes place when you get time to review material and rethink it over-- new ideas develop and occur to you that you may have missed the first time. Really-- a slower pace does not mean less learning for sure : It may actually give kids time to linger over ideas a bit longer and explore things deeper. Depends on the kiddo.

Some of the best learning also takes place w/o peers but discovering things on your own.

My biggest advices would be to talk to your DS as well. He could tell you how he feels about the changes (they may /may not be accurate observations, but his personal observations should be invaluable in making some choices. Perception of himself will be your biggest clue if he is 'challenged'.). Does he notice the ADD treatment is helping? Does he like the new reading group? Is he feeling good about the changes? Etc?

On the OT topic. You could revisit it- talk to the school OT. They may suggest some at home activities and/or programs (Handwriting without Tears is great!) or may also suggest he learn keyboarding if what he struggles with is purely a mechanical concern/speed/completion. If writing is a problem- you need to address it. The writing required will only increase as the years go on.

Good Luck and I hope you continue to see improvement as time goes on for the ADD treatment!

[luv my 2 sweeties]

 The problem, and here I go worrying about sounding obnoxious, is that the actual learning that takes place when you are challenged among your peers is missing.  Maybe that's OK for right now?

I think it *is* OK for now.  I totally get what you mean about being challenged among your peers.  I'm a big believer in that!  But he's making a big adjustment right now as he gets used to being on the medication.  You may be right that he belongs in the top group, or some of the PP's may be right that the group he's in now is potentially the best place for him.  I'll argue that at this moment, it doesn't really matter.  Here's why:

1) It's late in the school year.  There are only about 3 months left in the school year.  Time enough to see if this new group holds some promise for him, but not so long that any lack of challenge will have any big impact in the long run.

2)  He's in second grade.  Thinking long term may help ease your stress.  He has many, many years of schooling ahead of him, and what's going on in second grade won't ultimately matter unless you really drop the ball as he goes forward.  (It's clear you won't do that!) 

I would give it the rest of the year in the group he's in, *maybe* do some work over the summer to increase his speed, and then see where they want to put him in 3rd grade.  At that point, if you feel his placement is incorrect, you could begin to give more push-back.  He'll be looking at a whole year in the group at that point, and honestly, you'll have a much better picture of what your ds "looks like" as a student on ADD medication.  (And not the least of it, your DS will have a better picture of *himself* as a student on ADD medication, and may be better able to help you make an assessment of his needs.)  If you feel you need to challenge his placement in 3rd grade, you'll be on much firmer ground, both with the school, and in your own mind. 

You are so clearly an amazing mom!  Don't feel bad at all for your response to or thoughts about any of this. (hug)  We all need to bounce ideas off each other now and then, especially when those trees get so dense that it's hard to see the forest!  :o)

[karne]

Hi everyone.  Guin, and others, you're very right.  Learning takes place in so many places, not only with same ability groupings.  My thought was just that because one of the biggest strengths (and enjoyment) is the verbal piece, it's a different experience to be in a place where kids are working on comprehension activities in the time alloted, and my ds has moved very quickly from that to be ready to explore at a different level.  This is specifically where I saw the disengagement.  But, there are other times in the day for discussion to happen, so maybe that will work out OK.  As you all have pointed out, this is an adjustment period.

I've had the night to think it over, and get some feedback from the school.  It is truly a speed and attention issue, which, as others have mentioned, has a big impact on work.  His new group is going to give him the space to work on the written piece as he gets used to being treated for ADD.  It's a  place to let him work on what has been challenging for him.  And, as I mentioned, so far the impact of treatment has been fairly dramatic-you could knock me over with a feather-so we'll see how this all unfolds.  

I am going to trust that the work that needs to be done is taking place here.    Deep breath.  Thank you so much for all of the feedback-every bit has helped me.

Edited by karne - 3/2/11 at 7:11am

[kathymuggle]

My apologies if the below have been answered.

What does your DS want? Did he enjoy the advanced group?  Does he enjoy the current one?

If he needs to work on fluency I do not see anything wrong with him being in the slower reading group while he gets up to speed in reading speed.  Given his test scores, and what you have seen of the class, I would see it as a temporary placement at this time.  I might even float that idea by his teacher "yes, we agree he needs to work on speed...but once he reads a bit quicker we would like him to try the advance reading group again - he is a bright kid and we feel he really enjoys the connections and discussion aspect of the other group."

[karne]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

My apologies if the below have been answered.

What does your DS want? Did he enjoy the advanced group?  Does he enjoy the current one?

If he needs to work on fluency I do not see anything wrong with him being in the slower reading group while he gets up to speed in reading speed.  Given his test scores, and what you have seen of the class, I would see it as a temporary placement at this time.  I might even float that idea by his teacher "yes, we agree he needs to work on speed...but once he reads a bit quicker we would like him to try the advance reading group again - he is a bright kid and we feel he really enjoys the connections and discussion aspect of the other group."

The previous group is pretty much all he's known-this has been his "group" so to speak, for a few years for the academic piece.  For better or worse, this is the differentiation that's available at this age.  He's not negative about the new group, he's not really anything, if you understand?  When he first started kindy it was like this-social piece was fun, the work was something he knew, so there wasn't a lot of engagement.  

We'll live with it because it's really not a choice not to, and it's being done for a reason.  I've taken in all of the positives that other folks here have noted could be a part of this experience.   At some point, not having enough written output was going to become an issue in the higher level groups.  I am not convinced moving to a lower level group is the answer, but it is what's happening at this point.  

Edited by karne - 3/2/11 at 4:24pm