Should vaccinated have right to sue unvaccinated? - Page 10

[deborahbgkelly]

I actually did get my MMR booster last year. Also, in most cases when one travels they are supposed to get it. I am not trying to argue either way here, just thought you should hear of an adult who had the MMR booster.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by ralucam 

Of those that are fully vaccinated, 10% will not take to them. Are you going to sue those people too? I need to compromise my child to make you feel better?  There are outbreaks and even those who are vaccinated get sick so the herd immunity argument goes right out the window.

Since its pretty clear that some of the recent posters have not read the entire thread, the issue would be if you KNEW that your child was EXPOSED to a VPD you should keep them home so that they don't expose others.  Vax status would really have NOTHING to do with it - although non-vaxers are more likely to take their children to pox parties and such.

[ma2two]

Should unvaccinated people who come down with shingles be able to sue vaccinated people for the loss of natural boosting from chickenpox in the community? Shingles is a terribly painful condition, and it's gone way up in the U.S. as a result of the chickenpox vaccine.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by ma2two 

Should unvaccinated people who come down with shingles be able to sue vaccinated people for the loss of natural boosting from chickenpox in the community? Shingles is a terribly painful condition, and it's gone way up in the U.S. as a result of the chickenpox vaccine.

Is that really true?  The CP vax wasn't around even when I was a kid (and I'm among the younger of the mama's at 26), so the kids who have had the CP vax aren't adults yet.  If all these adults have such great natural immunity from actually having gotten CP as kids, why are they getting shingles from kids who had the vax?  Or is natural immunity not all that great?

[Plaid Leopard]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

Is that really true?  The CP vax wasn't around even when I was a kid (and I'm among the younger of the mama's at 26), so the kids who have had the CP vax aren't adults yet.  If all these adults have such great natural immunity from actually having gotten CP as kids, why are they getting shingles from kids who had the vax?  Or is natural immunity not all that great?

 Immunity to chicken pox wanes over time, but contact with chicken pox circulating in the community gives natural boosters. Now that chicken pox is not around so much in the US, less people are coming into contact with natural CP, and more people (and more younger people) are coming down with shingles. But that's ok - now we have a shingles vaccine! Yay!

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Plaid Leopard 

 Immunity to chicken pox wanes over time, but contact with chicken pox circulating in the community gives natural boosters. Now that chicken pox is not around so much in the US, less people are coming into contact with natural CP, and more people (and more younger people) are coming down with shingles. But that's ok - now we have a shingles vaccine! Yay!

So natural immunity isn't all its cracked up to be.  I didn't think it was as great as its made out to be.

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

So natural immunity isn't all its cracked up to be.  I didn't think it was as great as its made out to be.

The natural order of things is to get chickenpox once as a child, then be regularly exposed to it in the community as a protection against shingles. That's why shingles used to be an elderly disease--they typically weren't around kids as much.

Even though my kids have had chickenpox, I still seek out chickenpox parties to get them and myself boosted up. I don't know how often is necessary, but I hope to find one at least every 5 years. People who get the chickenpox vaccine are in the exact same situation. They need exposure too in order to be protected from shingles.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

So natural immunity isn't all its cracked up to be.  I didn't think it was as great as its made out to be.

What a bizarre thing to say.  Is natural immunity perfect?  Not always, but it's more effective than artificial immunity evoked with chemicals.  The human race has survived and evolved this long because natural immunity is effective, and, well, natural.  It's how the immune system is supposed to protect the body.

[Plaid Leopard]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

So natural immunity isn't all its cracked up to be.  I didn't think it was as great as its made out to be.

Well, a case of measles confers natural lifelong immunity. We certainly can't say that for the measles vaccine.
 

[Jugs]

Originally Posted by Plaid Leopard 

Well, a case of measles confers natural lifelong immunity. We certainly can't say that for the measles vaccine.
 

I wonder about that... do we know for sure that measles doesn't need a natural "booster" like chicken pox does? CP immunity was once assumed to be life-long as well, until the wild-type virus was no longer circulating as it once was. Really, be it immunity to the wild-type virus or via vaccination, the only way to know if either is lifelong is by having antibodies checked.

[ema-adama]

I do think that boosters will be needed for measles. Whether natural or vaccines.

And I do suspect that measles will re emerge irrespective of vaccine stats in the population.

Originally Posted by Jugs 

I wonder about that... do we know for sure that measles doesn't need a natural "booster" like chicken pox does? CP immunity was once assumed to be life-long as well, until the wild-type virus was no longer circulating as it once was. Really, be it immunity to the wild-type virus or via vaccination, the only way to know if either is lifelong is by having antibodies checked.

[Plaid Leopard]

Originally Posted by Jugs 

I wonder about that... do we know for sure that measles doesn't need a natural "booster" like chicken pox does? CP immunity was once assumed to be life-long as well, until the wild-type virus was no longer circulating as it once was. Really, be it immunity to the wild-type virus or via vaccination, the only way to know if eithem is lifelong is by having antibodies checked.

I was thinking about that after I turned off the computer last night. If measles needs a booster, then is it possible that the live virus from the vaccine is acting as a booster in the general population? Although, if that were the case, it would seem that we would not be seeing an  increase in measles cases  in older children and young adults, as they would be exposed to recently vaccinated children fairly often. As far as I know there has not been an increase in measles in the 50+ age groups, the majority of which would have had natural measles, or at least a lot of exposure to it over the years.
 

[Jugs]

Not necessarily. The vaccine virus is much weaker than the wild virus, so perhaps its just transmissible enough to "booster" close contacts, but not enough to actually contribute to an outbreak. To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been a documented case of the vaccine virus causing measles infection caused by contacted with a recently-vaccinated person. 

[ema-adama]

There are benefits to natural immunity. But it is unlikely to be life long without the boosting effect of the virus circulating in the community. With regards to measles, the immunity transfered to the child across the placenta is longer lasting in women who had were naturally infected. This is important as babies are more at risk for sever outcomes from measles. It is my understanding the SSPE is the result of a child under the age of 1 or 2 (can't remember, sorry) being exposed to and contracting measles. I do not know whether the protective effect of breastfeeding is reliant on the mother having been naturally infected or not.

Was it a perfect system? No, 4-500 children died every year in the US from measles complications prior to the advent of the vaccine.

However, we still do not know just how the vaccine is going to impact our society. There is reason to suspect that measles will re-emerge regardless of high vaccine uptake. It is highly unlikely that eradication of measles is an achievable goal.

We very well could be heading for a situation where the entire population becomes dependent on vaccines to maintain immunity. Getting boosters throughout life. This would be necessary as we know that the disease is mildest in children aged 5-9. And most sever in the very young and the older. The populations that now could be more at risk.
 

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

So natural immunity isn't all its cracked up to be.  I didn't think it was as great as its made out to be.

[chaoticzenmom]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

So natural immunity isn't all its cracked up to be.  I didn't think it was as great as its made out to be.

Now, for Chicken Pox, it's not.  I did the chicken pox party for my kids once, but now that I know it's not going to give them lifetime immunity, it's really pointless.  They'll have to get vaccines for shingles as adults probably.  The vaccine has created the need for the vaccine, oddly enough.  My FIL just got shingles and he's pretty young.  It sucked for him.

[Magali]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

What a bizarre thing to say.  Is natural immunity perfect?  Not always, but it's more effective than artificial immunity evoked with chemicals.  The human race has survived and evolved this long because natural immunity is effective, and, well, natural.  It's how the immune system is supposed to protect the body.

[sosurreal09]

Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom 

Now, for Chicken Pox, it's not.  I did the chicken pox party for my kids once, but now that I know it's not going to give them lifetime immunity, it's really pointless.  They'll have to get vaccines for shingles as adults probably.  The vaccine has created the need for the vaccine, oddly enough.  My FIL just got shingles and he's pretty young.  It sucked for him.

This is what I keep saying vaccines are making a need for vaccines! The drug companies don't want us to be dependent on them huh? Life-long customers...
 

[SilverMoon010]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

This is what I keep saying vaccines are making a need for vaccines! The drug companies don't want us to be dependent on them huh? Life-long customers...
 

Not only that, but life-long customers from the side effects vaccines cause which require medications, and then in turn, those medications causing side effects, etc. It's like a domino effect.  At the rate this country is going, it's always going to be dependent on medications/medical treatment. 

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

So natural immunity isn't all its cracked up to be.  I didn't think it was as great as its made out to be.

I find this bizarre as well.  Are you saying you don't believe in your body's ability to heal itself?  Why were we born with an immune system then? It sounds as if you think our bodies need to be injected with various toxins/poisons, in order to fight any kind of illness, thus, having no confidence in the body's ability to work properly on its own. 

Same with fevers...Many parents don't realize fevers are actually a good thing.  People are trained to fear fevers and think that the proper way to handle a fever (talking about mild-to-moderate, stable fevers here) is to reduce the fever as soon as it starts, when in fact, doing so is limiting the ability of the immune system to fight the illness properly.  Why do conventional doctors never tell us this? They never seem to tell us exactly how the immune system works. We have to find this out by ourselves and our own research.

The immune system works in mysterious ways, but in healthy people exposed to everyday healthy things (i.e. no toxins, no GMO food, etc), it certainly does work, and to its fullest potential.  We can't always control the amount of toxins we are exposed to on a daily basis, just floating in the air, but we can choose to limit them as much as possible in every way we can.

Edited by SilverMoon010 - 3/27/11 at 8:32am

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 

I find this bizarre as well.  Are you saying you don't believe in your body's ability to heal itself?  Why were we born with an immune system then? It sounds as if you think our bodies need to be injected with various toxins/poisons, in order to fight any kind of illness, thus, having no confidence in the body's ability to work properly on its own. 

 

No, I'm just responding to the statement above that if you get wild chickenpox rather than the vaccine, you aren't immune for the rest of your life - that you have to have exposure over time to stay immune.  Therefore, all the fuss about "natural immunity" being so wonderful is kinda over the top.

I'm pretty sick of being told over and over and over again how absolutely positively TERRIBLE vaxes are.  I did my research, I vax my ds. 

The body works fine on its own, I get it.  I'm not stupid.  I give my ds tylenol when he has a fever, and alternate motrin and tylenol when the fever is persistent.  NOT b/c I don't have faith in his body to heal, but b/c I don't want him to end up in the hospital again with febrile seizures (NO, they were NOT related to vaccines, it happened at least a month after his last set of vaccines).  It was the MOST terrifying experience of my ENTIRE life - I'm pretty sure if that happened to your child you would give them fever-reducers too. 

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

No, I'm just responding to the statement above that if you get wild chickenpox rather than the vaccine, you aren't immune for the rest of your life - that you have to have exposure over time to stay immune.  Therefore, all the fuss about "natural immunity" being so wonderful is kinda over the top.

I'm pretty sick of being told over and over and over again how absolutely positively TERRIBLE vaxes are.  I did my research, I vax my ds. 

The body works fine on its own, I get it.  I'm not stupid.  I give my ds tylenol when he has a fever, and alternate motrin and tylenol when the fever is persistent.  NOT b/c I don't have faith in his body to heal, but b/c I don't want him to end up in the hospital again with febrile seizures (NO, they were NOT related to vaccines, it happened at least a month after his last set of vaccines).  It was the MOST terrifying experience of my ENTIRE life - I'm pretty sure if that happened to your child you would give them fever-reducers too. 

Likewise, I'm pretty sick of being told how TERRIBLE VPDs are and how if I don't vaccinate my child, she will surely die.  I did *my* research too.  Trust me, you are not in the minority.

There is no "fuss" over natural immunity.  I think you are misunderstanding how it works.  I have never heard that having wild chickenpox does not confer lifelong immunity and would like to see some studies about this before assuming anything.  I do know that I had wild chickenpox as a child, as did everyone I knew, and I've never been advised to have a vaccine for it.  I'm not sure why you think that natural immunity is less effective than artificial immunity.  Even if you do have to be re-exposed to chickenpox to stay immune, that's no different from needing booster vaccines for the rest of your life, and I would say it's far better than injecting the virus and adjuvants every few years, and THEN having to have another vaccine for shingles.

You seem to be taking many of the comments in this thread awfully personally.  Surely you can understand that not everyone will read the same information and come to different conclusions as far as risks vs. benefits.