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Should vaccinated have right to sue unvaccinated? - Page 12

post #221 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianneW View Post

This is a super long thread so I must admit I didn't really read it, I am sorry if I am repeating something already addressed. 

If you are vaccinated why would you have any need to sue the unvaccinated? If you are immune and they are not the only people they are putting in danger are themselves or other unvaccinated people. What would you be suing them for, putting their own life in danger?



Again, b/c vaccines ARE NOT 100% EFFECTIVE.  If you take your child to a pox party, and then tote them all over the place, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO YOU ARE EXPOSING.  It's NOT about VAXED vs. UNVAXED.  It's about INTENTIONAL EXPOSURE of illness to other people.

 

The ONLY peice of it that is about vaxed vs. unvaxed, is that parents who VAX are EXTREMELY unlikely to INTENTIONALLY expose their children to a VPD.

 

Isn't one of the CENTRAL ideas on why NOT to vax that Vaxes aren't 100% effective?  If it is, DO NOT expect everyone who has had the vax to be immune - Keep your chickenpox/measles/insert other VPD here to yourself and you OWN children.

post #222 of 360

Haven't read the thread, but did read the editorial.

 

First of all no judge would want to set a precedent like this.  Are you going to start allowing people to sue for influenza?  Chicken pox?  How about sueing people with stomach viruses that didn't wash their hands after using the toilet?  That's just rediculolus.

 

Secondly, could it be proven beyond a reasomable doubt that the unvax'd person in question was the source of your becoming ill?  Highly unlikely, unless its something really exotic, like wild Polio. 

 

Third, if you're a person of compromised immune function or have a newborn baby YOU are responsible for taking the risks associated with being in enclosed places, such as airplanes, buses, elevators, etc..   or just out in the general public.  If you are responsible and value your health you will take the necessary precautions to defend your own health.  You shouldn't rely on anyone else to ensure your safety.

 

Oh and the last thing, does that person get to also sue the individual who gave her the measels, and the person before them?  That would be legal insanity and chaos, something we really could do with less of in our country.

post #223 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by *~*SewHappyNow*~* View Post

Secondly, could it be proven beyond a reasomable doubt that the unvax'd person in question was the source of your becoming ill?  Highly unlikely, unless its something really exotic, like wild Polio. 


Thats not the standard in civil litigation.  Beyond a reasonably doubt is the standard in CRIMINAL litigation.  Civil litigation requires a "preponderance of the evidence" or, 50.1% chance the defendant caused the plaintiff's harm.

 

post #224 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by *~*SewHappyNow*~* View Post

Third, if you're a person of compromised immune function or have a newborn baby YOU are responsible for taking the risks associated with being in enclosed places, such as airplanes, buses, elevators, etc..   or just out in the general public.  If you are responsible and value your health you will take the necessary precautions to defend your own health.  You shouldn't rely on anyone else to ensure your safety.



I agree to an extent.  Honestly, if you've taken your chidlren to a pox or measles party to give the "wild pox/measles" and then make the conscious choice to take them out in public or to friends houses, or on an airplane, YES you should be responsible for the harm that you cause.

 

If, on the other hand, you have NO IDEA that there was an exposure, then it gets more tricky.  But when you know that you were exposed to something, or actually CHOSE to expose yourself and your children, then you should also make the effort to stay the heck away from people who don't want that illness.

 

It also makes me really mad taht people on this website are all about "Vax isn't 100%.  Therefore there is no point b/c it doesn't guarantee immunity"  But then as SOON as the coin is flipped, its, "Well, they were vaxed.  They should be immune.  If they got vaxed they MUST be immune - therefore those of us that aren't vaxed couldn't POSSIBLY have done anything wrong"

 

Such a double standard.

post #225 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post





Again, b/c vaccines ARE NOT 100% EFFECTIVE.  If you take your child to a pox party, and then tote them all over the place, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO YOU ARE EXPOSING.  It's NOT about VAXED vs. UNVAXED.  It's about INTENTIONAL EXPOSURE of illness to other people.

 

The ONLY peice of it that is about vaxed vs. unvaxed, is that parents who VAX are EXTREMELY unlikely to INTENTIONALLY expose their children to a VPD.

 

Isn't one of the CENTRAL ideas on why NOT to vax that Vaxes aren't 100% effective?  If it is, DO NOT expect everyone who has had the vax to be immune - Keep your chickenpox/measles/insert other VPD here to yourself and you OWN children.


Wow, I find this completely repulsive, although I'm not offended personally because it really makes no sense to me or supports no true argument. You may want to rethink your posts before you generalize like that.

In addition, in case you're not aware, there are many "CENTRAL" ideas as to why not to vaccinate, not just that they are not all 100% effective, if effective at all. The safety of them regarding the horrendous ingredients in them, most likely causing some kind of damage in the short or long term is another good "CENTRAL" idea.
post #226 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post



Wow, I find this completely repulsive, although I'm not offended personally because it really makes no sense to me or supports no true argument. You may want to rethink your posts before you generalize like that.

In addition, in case you're not aware, there are many "CENTRAL" ideas as to why not to vaccinate, not just that they are not all 100% effective, if effective at all. The safety of them regarding the horrendous ingredients in them, most likely causing some kind of damage in the short or long term is another good "CENTRAL" idea.


So, if you take your unvaxed kiddos to a pox party and intentionally expose them to the chicken pox you think its OK to trapse all over town with them and expose other people to chicken pox?  I'm pretty sure I strongly disagree with that - if you know that your child has been exposed (whether they are vaxed or not really) you shouldn't be choosing to expose other people to those illnesses.

 

post #227 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post




So, if you take your unvaxed kiddos to a pox party and intentionally expose them to the chicken pox you think its OK to trapse all over town with them and expose other people to chicken pox?  I'm pretty sure I strongly disagree with that - if you know that your child has been exposed (whether they are vaxed or not really) you shouldn't be choosing to expose other people to those illnesses.

 


Regarding your question, sorry, but I can't answer this. I've never taken my child to a pox party. And I certainly would never trapse them all over town when sick. I don't know about you, but I've never seen a nonvaxing chicken-pox-party parade trapsing through my town trying to infect everyone.

Can I ask you why you think nonvaxers' goals are to intentionally spread diseases to the supposed "protected" vaxed children? Of all diseases, the chicken pox? Why all of the sudden is this country so paranoid about normal childhood diseases? Oh, that's right..because it's on the CDC recommendation list, that's why. I forgot. It must be a dangerous, scary, deadly virus then, right?eyesroll.gif

Well, you made your point over and over again in all of your posts... You despise nonvaxers. Terrific! Can we move on to more important discussions now that actually have validity and are not made of judgmental accusations?
Edited by SilverMoon010 - 4/7/11 at 2:50am
post #228 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post




Yeah, I guess my kid has zero chance of being an extraordinary person b/c I'm a WOHM mom.  I guess being a single parent kicks me out of the MDC club.  Oh well.

 


Can the pity party, that isn't what I said, and you know it.  smile.gif  I said they go through different journeys to back you up, that children of working mothers can become extraordinary so who is anyone to judge what is wrong or right, good or bad?  I think you'd see more support for you if you'd be open to it, my post is a perfect example of that.

 

 

post #229 of 360

 

 

Quote:
 
I'm pretty sure I strongly disagree with that - if you know that your child has been exposed (whether they are vaxed or not really) you shouldn't be choosing to expose other people to those illnesses.

 

My daughter was exposed to chicken pox and we waited for the spots to show but they didn't.  Then her cousin got a second dose of chicken pox and we waited for DD to get it and again, no spots.  Then the pox made the rounds a third time.... again, nothing.  Then the flu went around, then scarlette fever... my kids have been exposed almost constantly to diseases and that's just the ones I know of for sure.  Am I supposed to keep them home whenever I know they've been exposed?  At some points, that would be consistent for a month or two in a row.  

 

Funny thing is, the vaxed kids are the ones sharing these diseases between themselves in our area, so many seem perpetually sick and snotty nosed, even whooping cough was doing the rounds but my kids never went down with any of it and they are completely unvaxed.  Like any disease, you simply don't get sick if you are very healthy with a strong nutrient status.  VPD are not exempt from that simple health/disease logic.  Like it happened with my mother and me, we got exposed to all of the diseases, we became immune, but we didn't get sick (we are immune to all we have had checked via blood tests).  That's the perfect natural immunisation.  

 

What if my child had caught one of these diseases from a vaxed child.  Can I sue them?  Can any of us sue for a disease, or is that a privilege that should be reserved only for those that vaccinate?

post #230 of 360

No, they should not be allowed to file a lawsuit. It is sad how so many people want to blame someone else for their problems. So and so made me sick being one of the most common. Hello, your lack of a healthy immune system caused you to become sick. Lack of proper diet, rest and excercise are huge immunity busters. Try taking better care of yourself if you wish to reduce illness. We are usually our own worst enemy.

 

I get so sick of hearing the word sue. It's soooooo overused!!! Somebody is always wanting something for nothing. America has become such a selfish, self absorbed bunch of people.

 

And honestly, how many people die from illnesses that the government want people to be vaxed for? They are all illnesses that can be treated with success. People that die from these vaxable illnesses would likely die from any other contagious illness. They generally have very weak constitutions.  

 

IMO vaxing is such a hoax. My motto is.....if the government is pushing it....it's not for my benefit.....it's for their benefit. My best interest isn't on their agenda.

 

post #231 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post




So, if you take your unvaxed kiddos to a pox party and intentionally expose them to the chicken pox you think its OK to trapse all over town with them and expose other people to chicken pox?  I'm pretty sure I strongly disagree with that - if you know that your child has been exposed (whether they are vaxed or not really) you shouldn't be choosing to expose other people to those illnesses.

 




Regarding your question, sorry, but I can't answer this. I've never taken my child to a pox party. And I certainly would never trapse them all over town when sick. I don't know about you, but I've never seen a nonvaxing chicken-pox-party parade trapsing through my town trying to infect everyone.

Can I ask you why you think nonvaxers' goals are to intentionally spread diseases to the supposed "protected" vaxed children? Of all diseases, the chicken pox? Why all of the sudden is this country so paranoid about normal childhood diseases? Oh, that's right..because it's on the CDC recommendation list, that's why. I forgot. It must be a dangerous, scary, deadly virus then, right?eyesroll.gif

Well, you made your point over and over again in all of your posts... You despise nonvaxers. Terrific! Can we move on to more important discussions now that actually have validity and are not made of judgmental accusations?


Now you're just putting words in my mouth.  I just want people to realize that there are risks to everything - and if your kid has been exposed to something, you KNOW they were exposed, and then take them out and about and get someone else sick - YES you should be held responsible for their damages.

 

Their damages may not be worth enough to sue over though, and most likely they won't be - so it would really only be when you infect someone who is immunocompromised (oh yeah, I forgot, they aren't ever supposed to leave their home b/c someone might have been vaxed and give them a terrible disease from the vax.....) and has major complications. 

 

I distinctly remember a mother on MDC whining about how her pox exposed children (due to a POX PARTY) were uninvited from a party, and the mother COULD not accept that the party mom did the right thing by uninviting her children.  THATS what I'm talking about.  When your children have been exposed, keep them home!

 

And no, I'm not all too keen on my ds getting the chicken pox, or measles (however common and wonderful they are) b/c I CANNOT miss work at this point.  I CANNOT.  And unfortunately, no one else is feeding my kid.  If it happens, so be it, but I'm not taking him places where I know children are unvaxed and intentionally trying to get these diseases so that they have the oh so wonderful "natural immunity" that everyone thinks is so wonderful.

post #232 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calm View Post

 

What if my child had caught one of these diseases from a vaxed child.  Can I sue them?  Can any of us sue for a disease, or is that a privilege that should be reserved only for those that vaccinate?



It's not about who is vaxed vs. who is NOT vaxed.  It's about INTENTIONALLY exposing others to a disease that you KNOW your child was exposed to.

 

I'm pretty sure you're in the minority of never been sick but are immune.  And remember, immunity doesn't last forever so you should get those titers more often to make sure you're still immune.

post #233 of 360



If a child has been recently vaxed. Shouldn't they be considered "exposed"? They could very well be on the verge of breaking out with the disease after a vax. IMO they should have to stay out of the public for X amount of time needed to make sure they don't "spread" their germs.  Out of all fairness to the unvaxers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post





It's not about who is vaxed vs. who is NOT vaxed.  It's about INTENTIONALLY exposing others to a disease that you KNOW your child was exposed to.

 

I'm pretty sure you're in the minority of never been sick but are immune.  And remember, immunity doesn't last forever so you should get those titers more often to make sure you're still immune.



 

post #234 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post





Now you're just putting words in my mouth.  I just want people to realize that there are risks to everything - and if your kid has been exposed to something, you KNOW they were exposed, and then take them out and about and get someone else sick - YES you should be held responsible for their damages.

 

Their damages may not be worth enough to sue over though, and most likely they won't be - so it would really only be when you infect someone who is immunocompromised (oh yeah, I forgot, they aren't ever supposed to leave their home b/c someone might have been vaxed and give them a terrible disease from the vax.....) and has major complications. 

 

I distinctly remember a mother on MDC whining about how her pox exposed children (due to a POX PARTY) were uninvited from a party, and the mother COULD not accept that the party mom did the right thing by uninviting her children.  THATS what I'm talking about.  When your children have been exposed, keep them home!

 

And no, I'm not all too keen on my ds getting the chicken pox, or measles (however common and wonderful they are) b/c I CANNOT miss work at this point.  I CANNOT.  And unfortunately, no one else is feeding my kid.  If it happens, so be it, but I'm not taking him places where I know children are unvaxed and intentionally trying to get these diseases so that they have the oh so wonderful "natural immunity" that everyone thinks is so wonderful.


Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the measles vaccine known to shed, exposing the virus to unvaccinated children? It is made with live virus. Do unvaccinated children being exposed to the unnatural, artifically-created vaccine viruses ask for that? In that case, you should keep your children home after gettting their vaccine like the above poster mentioned if you're going to suggest everyone else stay home after exposure, if we're going to be fair.
Edited by SilverMoon010 - 4/7/11 at 6:29am
post #235 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post





Now you're just putting words in my mouth.  I just want people to realize that there are risks to everything - and if your kid has been exposed to something, you KNOW they were exposed, and then take them out and about and get someone else sick - YES you should be held responsible for their damages.

 

Their damages may not be worth enough to sue over though, and most likely they won't be - so it would really only be when you infect someone who is immunocompromised (oh yeah, I forgot, they aren't ever supposed to leave their home b/c someone might have been vaxed and give them a terrible disease from the vax.....) and has major complications. 

 

I distinctly remember a mother on MDC whining about how her pox exposed children (due to a POX PARTY) were uninvited from a party, and the mother COULD not accept that the party mom did the right thing by uninviting her children.  THATS what I'm talking about.  When your children have been exposed, keep them home!

 

And no, I'm not all too keen on my ds getting the chicken pox, or measles (however common and wonderful they are) b/c I CANNOT miss work at this point.  I CANNOT.  And unfortunately, no one else is feeding my kid.  If it happens, so be it, but I'm not taking him places where I know children are unvaxed and intentionally trying to get these diseases so that they have the oh so wonderful "natural immunity" that everyone thinks is so wonderful.




Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the measles vaccine known to shed, exposing the virus to unvaccinated children? It is made with live virus. Do unvaccinated children being exposed to the unnatural, artifically-created vaccine viruses ask for that? In that case, you should keep your children home after gettting their vaccine like the above poster mentioned if you're going to suggest everyone else stay home after exposure, if we're going to be fair.

 

We try to do vaxes on Friday's, so that we can lay low for a few days.  Thats not always possible though, and I operate on the assumption that people at my ds's childcare center are all vaxed (since its required).

 

If a non-vaxer doesn't want to be exposed to my vaxed ds, they should be taking those precautions as well, B/c I'm doing what is considered to be the "norm".  If my ds's ped told me not to take him out in public, then i wouldn't.  So far though, that hasn't been recommended.

 

And really, since your non-vaxed children have such amazing immune systems from not being tainted by vaxes, you shouldn't be worried about the vaccine shedding - b/c your children have all that natural immunity!

post #236 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post



 

We try to do vaxes on Friday's, so that we can lay low for a few days.  Thats not always possible though, and I operate on the assumption that people at my ds's childcare center are all vaxed (since its required).

 

If a non-vaxer doesn't want to be exposed to my vaxed ds, they should be taking those precautions as well, B/c I'm doing what is considered to be the "norm".  If my ds's ped told me not to take him out in public, then i wouldn't.  So far though, that hasn't been recommended.

 

And really, since your non-vaxed children have such amazing immune systems from not being tainted by vaxes, you shouldn't be worried about the vaccine shedding - b/c your children have all that natural immunity!


No, I'm not saying I am worried about it. I'm not going to run and get the MMR because of the shedding factor. I'll take my chances, thank you. I've educated myself on how to care for a child with measles if it were ever to occur. I would much rather, however, if my child were to become exposed to measles or CP, it be naturally rather than from secondary transmission from a recently vaccinated child. That just doesn't seem right.

My mom has had the measles when she was younger, my dad, the mumps, me, the chicken pox, as well as many, many other people...We all got over it. Now, my brother on the other hand, when he was a baby, almost died from a vaccine. He was blue and limp with a 105 degree fever. Now that scares me.

I was just trying to make a fair point to your argument about all nonvaxers intentionally exposing themselves to vaccinated kids (when really it sounds like you are making that basis on only one comment someone made on here in the past). It goes both ways. I just wanted to show you that your argument is not strong because vaccinated kids carry the same risks you speak of.

And yes, I am one who thinks a strong, healthy, untainted immune system works well. I really don't see what's wrong with that.
Edited by SilverMoon010 - 4/7/11 at 8:11am
post #237 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post



 

We try to do vaxes on Friday's, so that we can lay low for a few days.  Thats not always possible though, and I operate on the assumption that people at my ds's childcare center are all vaxed (since its required).

 

If a non-vaxer doesn't want to be exposed to my vaxed ds, they should be taking those precautions as well, B/c I'm doing what is considered to be the "norm".  If my ds's ped told me not to take him out in public, then i wouldn't.  So far though, that hasn't been recommended.

 

And really, since your non-vaxed children have such amazing immune systems from not being tainted by vaxes, you shouldn't be worried about the vaccine shedding - b/c your children have all that natural immunity!



That's just ridiculous.  A child doesn't have natural immunity from not being exposed to an illness, and you aren't comparing apples to apples.  I'm not worried about vaccine shedding, but you can't apply different "rules" to exposing vaxed kids vs. unvaxed.  You can't hold non-vaxers responsible for exposing others when vaxers do it too.  Just because you're doing what's considered to be the "norm"?  Wow.

 

My son was exposed to RSV when my daughter had it a few months ago.  Should I have quarantined him too, so he wouldn't expose anyone in his class?  Perhaps my husband shouldn't have gone to work?  Or maybe I shouldn't have taken her to the doctor, just so she wouldn't expose anyone else?

 

You operate on assumptions?  Even though most states have vaccine exemptions?  What about the kids who can't be vaccinated because of medical issues - do you still assume they are fully vaxed?  I'm sorry, but that is awfully naive.  Especially because as you well know, vaccines aren't just given on Fridays.  Regardless of what you do, vaccinated kids are walking around potentially exposing others right after getting sheddable vaccines every day.  Even from vaccines that your kid probably doesn't have yet!  My son was fully vaccinated until he was 5, and I was never told about the potential for vaccine shedding.  EVER.  That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

post #238 of 360


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post





Now you're just putting words in my mouth.  I just want people to realize that there are risks to everything - and if your kid has been exposed to something, you KNOW they were exposed, and then take them out and about and get someone else sick - YES you should be held responsible for their damages.

 

Their damages may not be worth enough to sue over though, and most likely they won't be - so it would really only be when you infect someone who is immunocompromised (oh yeah, I forgot, they aren't ever supposed to leave their home b/c someone might have been vaxed and give them a terrible disease from the vax.....) and has major complications. 

 

I distinctly remember a mother on MDC whining about how her pox exposed children (due to a POX PARTY) were uninvited from a party, and the mother COULD not accept that the party mom did the right thing by uninviting her children.  THATS what I'm talking about.  When your children have been exposed, keep them home!

 

And no, I'm not all too keen on my ds getting the chicken pox, or measles (however common and wonderful they are) b/c I CANNOT miss work at this point.  I CANNOT.  And unfortunately, no one else is feeding my kid.  If it happens, so be it, but I'm not taking him places where I know children are unvaxed and intentionally trying to get these diseases so that they have the oh so wonderful "natural immunity" that everyone thinks is so wonderful.



SSM, If I remember correctly, there was a pretty strong consensus on that thread as well as any other thread I've ever seen on the subject that you should keep your exposed children away from other children for awhile.  There may be a few opposing views in each thread, but the idea that most people here that don't vaccinate are just fine with exposing other children to diseases is not what I've seen. 

 

While I don't think that it's legally enforceable, I do think that if someone knows that their child is ill or exposed to something serious and they willfully ignore the fact that that there is a known immuno-compromised person where they will be, there should be some kind of liability.  I go to church and there are a lot of older people there, some that I know are battling cancer, so I do try to take extra precautions when I'm there...washing my hands, not attending when sick, being where I won't have to hold hands with anyone. I think it would be horrible for someone to put someone else at risk.  I don't want the risk of vaccination for my child and I'm choosing to break that "social contract," but that doesn't mean I don't care about disease.   I'm sure there are a few who aren't like me in that regard, but I know a lot of non-vaxxers and they're all like me when it comes to that.

 

Actually, I think I was much less careful with my first two because they were vaccinated. I was mostly worried about them getting colds or stomach flues because they did get those fairly often.  I didn't really consider other people's exposure to anything.

post #239 of 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post




So, if you take your unvaxed kiddos to a pox party and intentionally expose them to the chicken pox you think its OK to trapse all over town with them and expose other people to chicken pox?  I'm pretty sure I strongly disagree with that - if you know that your child has been exposed (whether they are vaxed or not really) you shouldn't be choosing to expose other people to those illnesses.

 



Intentionally exposing my children to Pox helped me to not expose other people to the disease.  I knew the exact date of exposure, knew the stats of when they would be contagious and was very prepared in our life to be able to lay low while we waited for the pox.  Had I waited for the disease to just happen on its own, I wouldn't have had that ability to control what was going on in our lives and plan accordingly.  If I had vaccinated my child for the pox (one of them is) I wouldn't even consider keeping them home after exposure.  I would just assume he wasn't going to get the disease because he was vaccinated and I would just go on as usual.  It would take me by surprise if he came down with it.  Would you keep your son home if we exposed to pox, but you had vaccinated him for it?  It could take two weeks for the disease to show and the chances he would get it would be really, really low. 

post #240 of 360

My cousin died of measles , when he was 13 years old . Yes , there is a risk of getting a vaccine-related illness or health problem , but compared to the risk of going through the disease by "naturally" catching it , that risk is really small .

Plus , there are many diseases , that have no cure to this day , like tetanus or polio .

It is beyond me , how anyone claiming to love their family would deny them one of the greatest achievements ever made in medical history , prevention of disease , whicgh is what vaccinations basically are . 

All 5 of my kids were immunized from the start , I always made sure they had no fever or runny nose or were feeling "off" that day , and they never had any problems .

Plus , I have never met healthier , more robust kids than mine .

Colds and flus at our house are virtually unheard of and we have no allergies whatsoever .

And if some bug is going around at school , that flattens everyone else for days or weeks , if one of mine even catches it , he/she bounces back after maybe a day or two .

Plus , if somebody would intentionally expose my newborn baby to a contagious disease , for me that is assault and I would have their head for that . It cannot be , that somebody´s freedom is causing another person pain .

Freedom ends , where someone else gets hurt . 

 

 

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