When Do You Start Working On Behavior?

[NicolleLynne]

Hi Mamas,

First time mama here seeking a little been there, done that advice. My little one is just nine months old and is pretty much a sweetheart. Just recently though, she has started crying and/or screaming when she doesn't get her way. Her favorite thing to do is crawl around and explore, which we're happy to let her do most of the time but last night for example, when I tried to feed her she burst into tears in the highchair. I took her out, comforted her and then tried to pop her back in but she wasn't having it so my husband and I took turns watching her crawl while the other person ate dinner. Later on, she started kicking her little feet and screaming when I changed her into her jammies. As soon as I was done, she brightened up and was fine.

I guess, my question is, is she too young to learn that she can't always do what she wants? Should we make her stay in the chair and try to feed her when she cries? Should we comfort her when she screams even though we know she's just frustrated? I'm very committed to AP parenting and gentle discipline. I hate to hear her cry and always do whatever I can to soothe her as quickly as possible. I want to constantly communicate to her how deeply loved she is. On the other hand, I don't want to raise a child who thinks they can kick and scream and get what they want or get out of what they don't want. Is nine months too young to start working with her on these issues? Should we just follow her lead and deal with these things when she's older? Or should we start teaching her that crying will not always produce the result she's looking for? If it's the latter, how do we do that gently and lovingly?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[SeattleRain]

We're having this problem also, my pediatrician says it's "protest crying" which you obviously know from your post. Basically, they don't want to do something so they're letting you know. For Daniel, the things he doesn't want to do are changing diapers, getting into his carseat (he's fine once he's in there, though), and being stopped from licking the outlet covers. Unfortunately, all those things are necessary for his health and safety. There are going to be things in your child's life that she's going to want to do, but aren't going to be possible and she's going to be upset, and that's okay. The point of AP parenting cannot be to live in fear of upsetting your child, even at the cost of health, hygiene, safety, or even the wellbeing of the rest of the family. So what I do is when I have to change Daniel's diaper and he's screaming, I talk to him and explain that I know he's very upset but I need to change his diaper because it's quite wet/poopy. If I have to redirect him from computer cords or outlets, I explain that those things are not safe for babies. I don't know how much it helps, but it's all you can do. Acknowledge her frustration, but don't let it totally dictate what you're doing.

[asraidevin]

At this age it's still about distraction from whatever it was that you had to remove. My son cried most of the day Saturday because he couldn't get his way combined with teething. It gets better when communication comes in.

I eat most of my meals with my plate pushed far to the side and my son on my knee with his bits of food on the table in front of us. (If he can get my plate my supper ends up on the floor with his). He can't understand when I say it's time to eat so I just give in. Once he's closer to 18 months to 2 years and he can understand that we sit in chairs at supper and no amount of screaming will get you out. As to when they understand, you'll know.

[Knitting Mama]

Originally Posted by NicolleLynne 

I guess, my question is, is she too young to learn that she can't always do what she wants? Should we make her stay in the chair and try to feed her when she cries? Should we comfort her when she screams even though we know she's just frustrated? I'm very committed to AP parenting and gentle discipline. I hate to hear her cry and always do whatever I can to soothe her as quickly as possible. I want to constantly communicate to her how deeply loved she is. On the other hand, I don't want to raise a child who thinks they can kick and scream and get what they want or get out of what they don't want. Is nine months too young to start working with her on these issues? Should we just follow her lead and deal with these things when she's older? Or should we start teaching her that crying will not always produce the result she's looking for? If it's the latter, how do we do that gently and lovingly?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

My advice is, do not just leave her in the highchair and attempt to feed her. She doesn't want to eat or sit in it, and that is fine. She doesn't have to eat solids this early on, and if she wants to eat, she will.

As for your concern that she'll learn that kicking and screaming gets her her way-- she is, in my eyes, too young to be taught that she can't always get what she wants. It's one thing when we're talking about safety, like redirecting the baby who's licking outlet covers (which cracked me up, by the way) or the baby who is trying to flip around during a diaper change and getting frustrated that he can't (which describes my daughter as well). You just talk calmly, redirect when you can, and know that as time goes on, they will learn. I don't expect her to follow my quiet directions yet when I say, "Cecilia, it makes it so much harder to get your diaper change done when you move around like this. If you're still, we'll be done quickly," but I trust that she will eventually.

The other thing to understand, from an early childhood development standpoint, is that impulse control is something that doesn't develop for some time yet. It's pretty clear to me that my baby understands the words I say, but I don't expect her to be able to control her impulses yet. That's more of a preschooler to school-age child thing (of course, there are always exceptions, but from a general ECD standpoint this is how it goes). Babies and toddlers do best with repetition and redirection simply because they can't control their impulses yet.

[goinggreengirl]

My son does those types of things as well. I just talk him through the wiggly diaper changes, the crying while I buckle him in, the fussing when it's time to sleep. I always comfort him when he's upset- even if it is just frustration. I don't give him what he wants though. For instance, he just tried to grab my scissors and he screamed when I moved them out of his reach- I gave him a kiss and redirected him. Just because he's crying out of frustration doesn't mean he doesn't deserve my love and affection.

I think they are way too young to expect them to be able to control their emotions. And, crying is really the only way they know how to express any emotion like sadness, anger, frustration, etc.

[flightgoddess]

If you want meal time to be family at the table, sitting together, you can start now. The high chair/table is where you eat food, not on the floor, living room, whatever. If she's not interested in having food on her plate, then giver her a toy, spoon, empty bowl, wet washcloth, whatever to explore while you two try to get a meal in. If she's interested in your food, she'll let you know, and then give her some. Definately don't try to feed her when she's crying, you don't want mealtime to be unplesant. Offer it to her, show it to her, if she's not interested, go on to a toy. When she calms down again, offer her choices again. Do you do baby signs/sign language? Even if you only do a few, teach and use consistantly some food signs for foods she eats frequently. My lil guy didn't really start signing back until he was over 12 months, but those signs sure were handy until he started talking more when he was over 2. We did water, milk, juice, cheese, bread, crackers, cookies, apples, pears, oranges, peaches, potato, rasins, noodles....I think that's about it. Obviously learn and teach signs for foods you frequently eat.

[osker]

The thing of it is, it's not too early as she has been learning you and you have been learning her since day one. Discipline isn't this horrible thing where you impose your will on someone, bending them til they break. It's really a form of communication and a process of learning how to live together in peace. It's up to you to decide what you want your life as a family to look like, and then steadily take steps in that direction. With a little luck, by the time she's 4 or 5 you'll have figured out the day to day stuff! ;)  

I go by the idea of "start as you mean to go on". I would never do something now that I would plan to change when E is 18 months old. I'd rather just attempt it every day, knowing that some days will work and other days won't. Eventually, my hope is that the good days will out number the bad. 

All that being said, we tend to move our life around her for the most part. We eat dinner at the time that is based on when she is hungry (within reason).  If she's not hungry yet, we wait a bit.  It's flexible and works for us.

[new2this]

DD is 6 months old and she does a lot of that. Feeding is different as she gets mad because we are not going fast enough or something. So she screams sees the spoon coming towards her mouth and she opens up. Take the spoon out and she screams again and its not a painful scream its a hey you type scream.

Diaper changes she is always twisting and turning so now I just change her on the floor and give her a toy and that seems to help some. 

Now that she has figured out how to crawl she is always going for things like laptop cord or the playstation. So all day long I am moving her. She will all out cry thrash herself back because she is upset i moved her. Sometimes a new toy is a good distraction other times she just wants to throw her fit. I do say no we can't play with that or this. Even though logically she don't understand it yet I do think she will learn after awhile.

[expat-mama]

Originally Posted by Cecilia's Mama 

My advice is, do not just leave her in the highchair and attempt to feed her. She doesn't want to eat or sit in it, and that is fine. She doesn't have to eat solids this early on, and if she wants to eat, she will.

As for your concern that she'll learn that kicking and screaming gets her her way-- she is, in my eyes, too young to be taught that she can't always get what she wants. It's one thing when we're talking about safety, like redirecting the baby who's licking outlet covers (which cracked me up, by the way) or the baby who is trying to flip around during a diaper change and getting frustrated that he can't (which describes my daughter as well). You just talk calmly, redirect when you can, and know that as time goes on, they will learn. I don't expect her to follow my quiet directions yet when I say, "Cecilia, it makes it so much harder to get your diaper change done when you move around like this. If you're still, we'll be done quickly," but I trust that she will eventually.

The other thing to understand, from an early childhood development standpoint, is that impulse control is something that doesn't develop for some time yet. It's pretty clear to me that my baby understands the words I say, but I don't expect her to be able to control her impulses yet. That's more of a preschooler to school-age child thing (of course, there are always exceptions, but from a general ECD standpoint this is how it goes). Babies and toddlers do best with repetition and redirection simply because they can't control their impulses yet.

YES, this.

Babies will not respond to traditional "discipline" the way older children can- they don't have a good memory, they don't understand things in the way you need them to etc. It is pretty pointless to try to teach them rules and to say "no". Pretty much until age 2 or so, the best course is to gently distract them and not frustrate yourself with trying to teach them the rules- it generally won't work.

As a PP sort of said, they DO respond to routines. Teach your baby what to do, how you want to do it and when by setting up routines getting them to expect things a certain way.

Don't worry about raising a baby who will scream and cry to get what they want- in fact that's exactly what they will do for a certain period of time. That's how they communicate right now and it's perfectly normal. As they get older they learn the finer points of communication. Your baby is not manipulating you or exhibiting bad behaviour- she's simply being a baby and she'll grow out of it and get to a point where she will be able to learn manners and how to please mom and dad by meeting their expectations.

[Tjej]

For us, we had the kids be with us at mealtimes.  We still do.  They don't have to eat, and when they were still babies they had a toy or two, but mealtime is familytime. 

Diapers - if you want to try EC, that could help with that issue, but if you don't want to then it really is one of those things that is easiest dealt with by being extremely patient and letting them work through their frustration.  Expect a diaper change (don't interrupt for it, but when there is a transition or lull in play go for it).  Make changes part of a routine (say, you always do it right when they get up, right before naptime story, etc, etc).  I do my best to wait for my kids to be calm before we do anything they don't want - it's the oft mentioned "waiting for the bus" thing - I am kind and firm in my expectation, then I support and wait, but we don't stop the diaper change because they wrestled me - we wait with nothing exciting or fun to do until they are willing to be changed.  Now, that doesn't mean that distraction toys aren't great - but I use them BEFORE an outburst, not to stop one.  If that makes sense.

Sign language is great.  And so is EC.  And so is family dinnertime.  It all works out and you do just have to decide what you want your little family to look like and then make the daily/hourly choices to make it happen.

Tjej

[beingmebeingmom]

This is perfect for us right now! We are having the same issue with our 15 mo DD. It is so fustrating and this has given me perspective! Thank you Mama's =0)

[P.J.]

Oddly enough, these links were in my mailbox this morning:

Should I Discipline My Baby?

and

Discipline Tool Kit

In a nutshell, they said no, a baby is too young to understand. And "discipline" for a baby is more about responding to needs and setting limits around basic safety.

Anyway, we are also going through this. Max will scream if I take something away. Redirection only works sometimes.

I do think that he already learns that he can't always get what he wants. I always acknowledge his frustration: You wanted to play with that and I took it away. I hear you're upset. ~type of thing.

Some months ago I started a thread in the Toddler forum asking when a baby crying becomes a toddler having a tantrum, and most answers indicated around 12-15 months, and that you'll know it when it happens.

[newmamalizzy]

I've been trying to focus on calm consistency with my 11 month old, and it seems to be working well.  With diaper changes, for example, distraction only works for so long.  When she starts rolling and trying to crawl away, I very gently pick her up and lay her back down, over and over again until the diaper change is done.  I try to be particularly calm and gentle when I'm playing the re-enforcer because it's definitely not a battle that I want to win; it's a lesson that I want to teach.  I have noticed that she's learning the ropes of what she can and cannot do, and she only gets really upset about not getting her way when she's tired. 

[whozeyermamma]

I know one thing that I used all the time with DD was this - when she had something that was dangerous, inappropriate, whatever:

Me, taking scissors from her hands, "Oh - can I have these please? Scissors are dangerous. Thank you!"

Even though it was not an option for her to give them to me, I think it's better than snatching them and saying NO! I think it also helped reinforce manners (please and thank you) and it showed her some respect. I firmly believe that if you want your kids to be respectful of you, you should respect them.

ITA with the PP who said about "I know you're upset about going into your car seat now, but we have to go to the store." Reflecting back their feelings helps. But it's not an option.

I think I also found a lot of success with my tone of voice and being physically gentle. It's hard not to get frustrated, but like the PP said, it's normal. Another thing I always told myself was that the behaviour may be normal but it's not acceptible. It's normal for an 18 mo old to swat when they're angry, but it's not ok.

[habitat]

My take:

With respect, she's communicating with you in the only way she knows how, and she needs you to respond in a way that tells her you're understanding her. She can't behave differently because this is how she communicates. It is developmentally appropriate and it needs an appropriate response. If her body needs to be moving and she's successfully getting this across, in no uncertain terms, why would you want to keep feeding her? To teach her a lesson? She's happy when her body is doing what it needs to do. She doesn't have impulse control, so her body has the gift of being able to just send you the message without her being able to screen it first. Her body should be moving on the floor (another crucial and developmentally appropriate behavior at her age) and she's telling you so! She's making it clear that what she needs is something else than what you're giving her.

My feeling is this: CIO shouldn't be taken to the dinner table any more than it should be taken to bed. Redirection will sometimes work, and if Baby really can't have what s/he wants (for safety, etc), but won't be redirected, then I comfort in-arms until the issue is passed. But I would have a hard time forcing a baby to sit still and act contented when their body is begging them to move. Babies can't fake contentedness.

I wouldn't want a young child to associate meal-time with punishment or displeasure. It's hard for me to take the, "that's just what we do as a family" thing, because I think it makes family time harder (and more punitive) than it has to be. Can she crawl around nearby while you eat, or could you picnic with her? Ease up on solids during this stage? Or try taking family time be taken to a more developmentally-appropriate space? Like on the rug with toys, etc?  Just some ideas.

[Tjej]

Our family mealtime is respectful of their feelings - and all of ours.  We don't have battles and tears about being at the table.  We don't CIO at the table.  It's just an expectation that the kids live up to when we put it there.

Tjej

[katelove]

I have a 9 month old too. For issues of safety - car seat, chewing electrical cords etc - we are sympathetic but firm and use distraction, although it doesn't always help.

For things like sitting in the highchair which don't matter we never force it. She starts the meal with us, if she is finished before we are then she gets down and plays by herself until we finish. If she needs cuddling then we happily oblige. Occasionally we have to eat in turns but the other person always stays within conversation distance of the table. Feeding isn't an issue for us as we do BLW.

For things like nappy changes which are important but not dangerous we try to be as accommodating as possible. She prefers to sit up or have another nappy to chew on etc? No problem. If nothing helps then we're just as quick as we can, provide lots of reassurance and then give lots of cuddles at the end.

[habitat]

Tjej,

I realize now that my post was worded a bit hostilely (sorry to the OP, also. I had just finished an awkward conversation with a client about CIO, so I was a bit upset and didn't realize). I wasn't trying to accuse anyone here of CIO at the table or being outright disrespectful towards their children. I was simply trying to state my honest-to-goodness belief that a child should not be ignored or punished or disregarded. My point was not against anyone here. I do know some families that started early with the forced in-your-seat dinner-time. And I am caring for a 9-month old right now, full-time, and I don't ever think she's just trying to get her way, even when her needs (and how she expresses them) don't match my expectations. I just change my expectations, and move on. 

Anyhow, respect to all of you!

Originally Posted by Tjej 

Our family mealtime is respectful of their feelings - and all of ours.  We don't have battles and tears about being at the table.  We don't CIO at the table.  It's just an expectation that the kids live up to when we put it there.

Tjej

[SeattleRain]

I just wanted to add another thing that I've put in my "discipline toolkit." I try to be conscious of how much I use the word "no" because it really doesn't express the gravity of the matter when discussing dangerous things. So instead of saying "no" I say "Danger! Danger! Outlets are not for licking" or "Danger! Danger! We don't suck on computer cords." My hope is that as he gets older, he will start to associate these things with being VERY off-limits and unsafe. Or at least that he will associate outlets with the word "danger."

Anyways, I just wanted to share this. The minute Daniel started crawling, I swear to you he crawled to my outlet covers. Perhaps a future in electrical work...

[kloppenmum]

My take on all this:

Don't stress about the food. Our kids have had various amounts of time at various stages eating while sitting on my lap, and even our 18 month old isn't expected to stay at the table once he's full.

With the diaper change, I'd either go with the 'lull in play' suggestion or the 'talk them through the emotions but this has to happen' suggestion, depending on if it's a poo or a wee.

Generally we use something called Boring Cuddles for any fussing or ouches - where we just hold our kids in our arms (silently) until the emotion has been processed by the small person and they pull away from us. It works a treat, if you can be silent and trust that it will work (it takes a little while the first week).

Good luck - learning the concept 'no' is important for brain development as well as for general wellbeing - but that doesn't mean that we can't help our kids manage their emotions through the process.

Karyn :)