Any way to teach toddler a second language if you are not bilingual yourself?

[crunchy_mommy]

I speak English & only English (as do all the people we hang around with -- some have second languages but really only use them at home). I know Spanish enough to get by in another country (and bits of other languages) but am not remotely fluent in anything but English.

My DS just seems to be such a sponge when it comes to language. He can repeat & understand pretty much any new word you tell him, English or otherwise. I would LOVE to take advantage of his eagerness & ability to learn words & teach him a second language!! I just have no clue where to even start...

To be clear, this is of course not 'for show' or anything. I didn't have any exposure to other languages until high school, and although I did great in my classes, I couldn't get the subtleties of pronunciation and interaction, the slang/local vernacular, etc. I just learned "textbook" Spanish (Latin, French, etc.) rather than truly learning a language and culture. I want my DS to have more than that... I would love for him to understand and appreciate different cultures, including but not limited to their languages and customs... I imagine this will get harder as he gets older... I remember walking into the multicultural center at college, hoping to meet new people and learn about their cultures, but I was basically chased out of the building because I am white... In a way I feel like I have no culture and nothing to pass on to DS.

[akind1]

I am no where near fluent, but have a good bit of Spanish and Japanese. I plan on - and do now when I remember - use some Spanish and Japanese. A good way is numbers, once your toddler has a grasp on 1-10 in English, teach him numbers in Spanish, French, whatever. Also "head, shoulders, knees, and toes" is easily sung in almost any language. As far as the culture bit, if you have friends from other cultures, could you invite them over for a culture night? maybe one at a time - for example, I have a friend from Argentina, and I would love to learn to cook some of her dishes, could you do a come teach me how to cook this? and then serve to your families? maybe she has a simple dish also that the kids could help with and teach the words for the ingredients and measurements as you go.

Also, I know in our area there is an annual International festival, granted, because of where we are, it isn't very big or grand, but it is at least a start. there are booths for various countries, and also usually food from there too.

I know there are children's language programs out there if you are interesting in him achieving fluency, and as DS gets older (he is only 15 months) we may look into those.

[physmom]

FWIW, some people do just fine learning after high school (I learned both of my second languages in college or beyond) but it both instances it was full-immersion and I made a point to seek out a number of native speakers (and practice not just while I was in the country).  I also picked up children's books and would read them albeit SLOWLY.  I'm just telling you so in case it doesn't work out it's definitely possible to learn later in life. 

That being said we're a bilingual family and DD has seasonal exposure to a third language (although she shows little interest in it she seems to understand it).  We have the advantage of DH and his entire family being native speakers with the only DH actually speaking English.  That being said if we didn't have that environment here's what we'd do.

• If you allow TV/DVDs then put them only in that language.  On cable Dora can be found On Demand in Spanish (probably the easiest language if you or your DH aren't fluent in it) along with a number of other TV shows
• Playgroups.  Normally meet-up.com has playgroups that are specific to a certain language.
• Learn along with your child, maybe you could take night classes? 
• Look for anything in your community in that language (when we lived in states they sometimes had story times in Spanish or French)
• If you're religious look for churches in that language (I lived abroad and went to an English speaking church for years, you'd be surprised how many locals went too to get their kids exposure to English!)
• Bi-lingual preschools
• Books at the library (granted, you would need to know some basic pronunciation)
• If you live in a university town you might be able to find a language student willing to practice with you and your child, especially if you were to trade off with English lessons
• Babysitters- DD's former babysitter was Italian and would speak in just Italian if requested.

[crunchy_mommy]

I'm sure DS could learn a language after HS... I mean, I did 'learn' a ton myself, it's just that without the immersion in it, I feel like it's not very meaningful, fluent, etc. and the culture that goes along with it will be missing. I guess this is not just about language and achieving fluency, but about being immersed in various traditions and philosophies and cultures...

Love the idea of playgroups... I will have to see if there are any around!!!

We do sing some songs in other languages (current favorite is Juanito Cuando Baila), I should find some new ones to try. We don't do TV/videos, at least not yet... or babysitters or preschool either, for that matter, but if we ever go that route, I will definitely consider language-immersion!!

Good idea on the churches, I used to regularly go to Spanish Mass... DS has a hard enough time getting through English services every week but maybe when he's a bit calmer we can add in the Spanish ones again!!

Multicultural night -- AWESOME idea and I think my friends would be very into this. The only thing I'm not sure of is what *I* could possibly contribute to it, since I feel like I have no culture... so I have to figure that part out!

[colsxjack]

You definitely have a culture. Everyone does. It may just be the dominant culture so you feel you do not.

It is like thinking you do not have an accent. But to other people, you are the one with the accent, not them.

I would say that it is difficult to teach your child to become fluent in a language or culture if you yourself do not know the language or participate in the culture. But you can teach them to learn a bit about a lot of other cultures and come to love and respect the differences among people.

Or, like a pp said, you can learn a long with him. Take some classes and immerse your family into the language and culture of other people.

[rhiandmoi]

Originally Posted by colsxjack 

You definitely have a culture. Everyone does. It may just be the dominant culture so you feel you do not.

It is like thinking you do not have an accent. But to other people, you are the one with the accent, not them.

I would say that it is difficult to teach your child to become fluent in a language or culture if you yourself do not know the language or participate in the culture. But you can teach them to learn a bit about a lot of other cultures and come to love and respect the differences among people.

Or, like a pp said, you can learn a long with him. Take some classes and immerse your family into the language and culture of other people.

This is totally true. Everything that you do as a "normal thing" is your culture. How you celebrate birthdays, holidays, etc. Songs that are sung, decorations that are put up, special outfits that are put together. I think it is important for people, especially members of the dominant culture, to understand and appreciate their own culture before going out and learning about others because the temptation to appropriate other cultures because they are *fun* is too strong if you don't have a strong base in your own culture.

[LROM]

DD recently turned 2, and even though neither DH nor I speaks Spanish, he learned enough from really basic books to teach her to count to 10 and a few other spanish words by the time she was 18 months old.  I speak French but have done an awful job of remembering to try to teach her words in French.  DH also got her a few videos in Spanish that are basically just video of kids doing lots of things where they say the word of certain objects or actions over and over.

BUT... I really want her to learn another language that neither DH nor I speak, and I have been researching language videos and books to get both of us started (and DH if he will join along).  Haven't found anything special yet but there's a lot out there.

In terms of the culture thing, are there restaurants near you with food and people from other countries?  DD has had Indian food, Chinese, Thai, Ethiopian, Spanish, Japanese and Jamaican food, and we make a point of looking around those restaurants and really looking at pictures and other decorations that are clearly from the same country as the food.  I know that's not at all the same as really immersing a child in another culture, but it does keep them open to trying new things (including new foods).  DD knows sushi when she sees it and says "sushi?"  Everytime she sees anyone standing on one leg she says "He do yoga?"... children really are culture-sponges if you keep looking for ways to put them right in the middle of something.

And ok, let me admit I thought I'd absolutely hate Barney the purple dinosaur... but there's a Barney Around the World or something video that dd loves that has dancing from: Japan, Kenya, Brazil, Ireland and India.  They also talk about local foods, and dd is starting to remember the foods they mention so I'm going to try to remember too and look specifically for those when we can eat out so she makes the connection.  Plus the video was like $4.00 at a yard sale. ;)

Last "multicultural tool" I accidentally discovered this weekend: youtube!  I was looking for Caillou vids (lots of those there) and dd saw a Dora vid which we watched, which led by accident to Dora and other popular characters in Japanese, Spanish, and some languages I didn't even know.  Then there was a Spanish cartoon we found which dd really liked and she was able to talk abotu what was happening even though she didn't understand it.  I'm going to look for more cartoons in other languages made in those countries so she can see what kids in other countries are watching.

[Comtessa]

I just saw a fascinating lecture online the other day about the way that babies learn language; it's called "The Linguistic Genius of Babies."  The link is here: http://www.ted.com/talks/patricia_kuhl_the_linguistic_genius_of_babies.html.  I highly recommend it just for the sake of interest, but particularly for one piece of data: babies only learn a second language if an actual human being teaches it to them.  A "language learning" video (or audio) is, statistically, zero help when it comes to teaching language -- that's what the science demonstrates.  Apparently, the absorption of language is done only when the social brain is "turned on" by the presence of other people and actual interaction with them.   So don't spend your money on expensive language-learning videos for your toddler!  But if you can get her/him into the presence of a person speaking another language, on a regular basis, s/he'll pick it up for sure. 

[crunchy_mommy]

Comtessa, I can't watch the video at the moment, I'll have to pull it up later, but that is really interesting and I guess exactly mirrors the concerns I have about helping him learn a language I (and our acquaintances) don't speak... I took several years of Spanish, and I suppose it had value in terms of basic vocabulary & grammar, but when it came to using it in real life, I was in for a huge shock. Speaking to actual Spanish-speaking people (for me, at least) had very little to do with what I had learned in the classroom (and often outright contradicted it!) I definitely learned more from spending a week here, another week there, in Spanish-speaking cultures, than in years of classroom instruction, and I'd imagine I would've learned even less from videos. I am hesitant to start letting my tv-free DS watch videos just for the sake of language exposure, and even more hesitant if it's unlikely to help anyway! So I guess you are kind of confirming what my gut already tells me.

In terms of the culture thing... I know you guys are right that I do have a culture, I just have a lot of trouble really identifying it since it seems like everyone around here shares it... I guess I feel that my own culture is not very meaningful in the absence of other cultures with which to contrast it. I also really don't identify fully with stereotypical "American culture" so I kind of do my own thing that doesn't seem to be based in regional traditions etc. (though I'm sure it's much more influenced by it than I realize!) I do have very strong, deeply-held religious beliefs but I am hesitant to share those with others for multiple reasons. It kind of leads me to feel like a 'stranger in my own land' or whatever that expression is.

We do eat a lot of ethnic foods. We can't really afford to go to ethnic restaurants much and I kind of find them to be Americanized around here for the most part, so there aren't a ton of cultural decorations... the food is good though. I would say 90% of our meals at home are 'ethnic' meals because I really don't like typical "American" food nor the local specialities. So maybe expanding on that and helping DS understand where the meals originate from etc. would be a great launching pad for us.

[ellemenope]

Unless you are a native speaker yourself in a language, I really don't think there is that great a benifit to teach a foreign language to your DC.  I have learned many languages to fluency and this is my conclusion.  Arabic is my strongest foreign language, and it really seems pointless to me to speak that around my DD.  I am about as fluent as one can be having learned the language as an adult, but I am not a native, and I am always reminded of that when I speak with one.  What could be gained only by learning a language as a young child would not transpire with me as her sole teacher.  Sure we count in foreign languages, and every now and then I will use some fun phrases.  It is much the same as Dora or Kai (lun?  I dunno.  We don't watch these).  They get some exposure but they are not being exposed to the more subtle and complex components of language.  We are not going into the subjunctive.   My DD still cannot pronounce the Arabic 'ayn' or 'kha' like a native, because I cannot.  I have concluded that Spanish would be a better idea to expose DD to, but it would not be in the same vein I feel is perpetuated by studies and products claiming babies to be language genii or that there is a closing window of opportunity to learn tones or be accent-less.  It is just useful to know, and so easy to learn.

I think a good immersion schools is the only way to go in your and my case to truly capitalize on our kids' natural leanings towards language as a child.  But, are these really worth it?  I don't know.  I am not really worrying about it because we haven't really the oppourtunity to even think about this. 

As far as culture.  We are a family with roots only going back to England and Scandinavia, and that culture is pretty lost on us.  We focus more on family tradition and embracing the idea that our country is a melting pot which we are a part of, and where we are fortunate enough to discover others' cultures and traditions from around the world.  We are definitely trying to raise DD to be global.  We listen to music from around the world, our own discoveries as well as the putamayo series.  DD's library contains books from many different cultures.  I seek these out.  DH travels abroad a lot and we talk about that.  He brings back souvenirs.  She has also been abroad, and we would like to do much more when she is older.  Because of DH's job we are well advised on the best authentic ethnic restaurants in the city.  We love to eat out at ethnic restaurants.  DD's favorite food is sushi.  She can eat an entire sushi roll, raw tuna, salmon, eel, shrimp tempura, smelt, seaweed and all.  We have joked that she should have been born in Japan!  She loves dumplings, pork buns, and Peking duck,  She has eaten lamb and goat.  Loves Turkish food. Even when we go to Outback, we talk about Australia!

[tzs]

i think learning another language would be great just for the mental stimulation and interest factor but i don't think i'd count on too much retention.

i learned french as a highschooler from living there for a year. after a couple months of total immersion i was fluent and went on to major in it in college. i could speak as well as a native and read complicated literary texts and write theses on them. but 5 years later without any regular use i had pretty much lost it all. today...i can't even make a simple sentence and sometimes it comes out as half very-basic-and-probably-incorrect spanish (from school).

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by Comtessa 

I just saw a fascinating lecture online the other day about the way that babies learn language; it's called "The Linguistic Genius of Babies."  The link is here: http://www.ted.com/talks/patricia_kuhl_the_linguistic_genius_of_babies.html.  I highly recommend it just for the sake of interest, but particularly for one piece of data: babies only learn a second language if an actual human being teaches it to them.  A "language learning" video (or audio) is, statistically, zero help when it comes to teaching language -- that's what the science demonstrates.  Apparently, the absorption of language is done only when the social brain is "turned on" by the presence of other people and actual interaction with them.   So don't spend your money on expensive language-learning videos for your toddler!  But if you can get her/him into the presence of a person speaking another language, on a regular basis, s/he'll pick it up for sure. 

Did they factor in that just sitting with a parent activates the baby's social brain? Oh, I see, they just did the same presentation live and then videotaped. They didn't show a video and have a second adult interact with the baby about the video. In fact it even looks like the video presentation was less interactive than the in person session. (i.e. the videotaped adult didn't even pretend to be presenting to someone, wasn't leaning in to engage the audience, and such. I think it would've been a better test to video tape the live session and then show THAT recording to the video test group.)

My experience was that I tried to sign with dd from birth off and on. Nothing. She was older than everyone else's babies started signing at least one sign. Then she saw a Signing Time dvd with her cousins, and started signing immediately. One time watching a dvd and she started using the language skill that I had been trying to introduce to her with no success.

I immediately put all the Signing Time dvds on hold at the library. And she learned most of the signs covered in those dvds (I did too, because I watched them with her.) Now, I will say that it was all vocabulary, but that was still good language development in a pre-verbal infant.

Not that it really matters, because that lecture is discussing phoneme perception in pre-verbal infants and the OP is concerned about language acquisition in a highly-verbal toddler and there are tons of preschoolers who learn at least vocabulary from videos. Particularly if it's backed up with parental interaction.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy 

Comtessa, I can't watch the video at the moment, I'll have to pull it up later, but that is really interesting and I guess exactly mirrors the concerns I have about helping him learn a language I (and our acquaintances) don't speak... I took several years of Spanish, and I suppose it had value in terms of basic vocabulary & grammar, but when it came to using it in real life, I was in for a huge shock. Speaking to actual Spanish-speaking people (for me, at least) had very little to do with what I had learned in the classroom (and often outright contradicted it!)

Cause there are soooo many Spanish-speaking cultures. For instance, people in Spain don't say frijoles or "Mehico" (they say "Mexico").

You speak English fluently right? So if I said I knocked my friend up to give her a recipe for digestives and a pattern for a jumper, there'd be no confusion at all, yes?

No, you aren't going to be getting your ds fluent, what you will be able to do is give him a strong foundation of basic grammar and vocabulary so he's in a position to absorb more advanced stuff when he gets that exposure.

(I hope he will let you work with him. DD refuses to let me call things by their names in other languages even if she's just said the word herself.)

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by LROM 

Last "multicultural tool" I accidentally discovered this weekend: youtube!  I was looking for Caillou vids (lots of those there) and dd saw a Dora vid which we watched, which led by accident to Dora and other popular characters in Japanese, Spanish, and some languages I didn't even know.  Then there was a Spanish cartoon we found which dd really liked and she was able to talk abotu what was happening even though she didn't understand it.  I'm going to look for more cartoons in other languages made in those countries so she can see what kids in other countries are watching.

Pocoyo for Spanish.

Pororo for Korean, although there are lots of Spanish dubs I don't know either language well enough to evaluate the translations.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=382DCEB7BCFD4965 this playlist will get you into the Japanese kids videos. (#22 is dd's favorite)
 

[physmom]

Originally Posted by ellemenope 

Unless you are a native speaker yourself in a language, I really don't think there is that great a benifit to teach a foreign language to your DC.  I have learned many languages to fluency and this is my conclusion.  Arabic is my strongest foreign language, and it really seems pointless to me to speak that around my DD.  I am about as fluent as one can be having learned the language as an adult, but I am not a native, and I am always reminded of that when I speak with one.  What could be gained only by learning a language as a young child would not transpire with me as her sole teacher.  Sure we count in foreign languages, and every now and then I will use some fun phrases.  It is much the same as Dora or Kai (lun?  I dunno.  We don't watch these).  They get some exposure but they are not being exposed to the more subtle and complex components of language.  We are not going into the subjunctive.   My DD still cannot pronounce the Arabic 'ayn' or 'kha' like a native, because I cannot.  I have concluded that Spanish would be a better idea to expose DD to, but it would not be in the same vein I feel is perpetuated by studies and products claiming babies to be language genii or that there is a closing window of opportunity to learn tones or be accent-less.  It is just useful to know, and so easy to learn.

I have to disagree with this.  I knew a guy who grew up in Mexico (both parents were Mexican but the father was an English teacher, but not a native speaker).  Anyways, the father always spoke English with him and when I met this guy (he was an adult by then) he spoke English fluently.  Sure, he had a slight accent but it was definitely worth his years of speaking with his dad.  Also, why assume that the parent would be the sole teacher?  Even with a less common language like Arabic you could most likely find other speakers around through playgroups, meet-ups etc (ok, assuming you live in a city at least...). If you live in a university town it's even easier.

I've also known people who have raised their children in churches that are not in their native language and again it was very much worth it in that the kids did master the language over the years. 

The key is, though, that constant exposure is needed.  That's why schools fall short so often.  They teach Spanish in English , they wait until kids are in middle school and even then only do minimal exposure to the alphabet/numbers, and then they only have class twice a week.  In order to really learn a language you need to be in an environment where you have consistent exposure with fluent speakers of that language (not necessarily native speakers but that obviously helps when it comes to the accent).  That certainly can happen even if the parents don't speak that language but it would take consistent effort over the years on the parents part. 

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan 

Did they factor in that just sitting with a parent activates the baby's social brain? Oh, I see, they just did the same presentation live and then videotaped. They didn't show a video and have a second adult interact with the baby about the video. In fact it even looks like the video presentation was less interactive than the in person session. (i.e. the videotaped adult didn't even pretend to be presenting to someone, wasn't leaning in to engage the audience, and such. I think it would've been a better test to video tape the live session and then show THAT recording to the video test group.)

My experience was that I tried to sign with dd from birth off and on. Nothing. She was older than everyone else's babies started signing at least one sign. Then she saw a Signing Time dvd with her cousins, and started signing immediately. One time watching a dvd and she started using the language skill that I had been trying to introduce to her with no success.

I immediately put all the Signing Time dvds on hold at the library. And she learned most of the signs covered in those dvds (I did too, because I watched them with her.) Now, I will say that it was all vocabulary, but that was still good language development in a pre-verbal infant.

Not that it really matters, because that lecture is discussing phoneme perception in pre-verbal infants and the OP is concerned about language acquisition in a highly-verbal toddler and there are tons of preschoolers who learn at least vocabulary from videos. Particularly if it's backed up with parental interaction.

Great points.  I can't watch that video at this time but I've read some similar articles and there's a lot missing from the studies.  There's a big difference between parents who supplement their child's language learning experience with TV/DVD and those who rely entirely on the TV/DVDs. 

I've seen DD pick up a number of words from TV.  DD's bilingual in Portuguese and English and she watches Dora.  Well, we've actually had to correct her a number of times because she was mixing Portuguese and Spanish (DH and I do not speak any Spanish, although we understand quite a bit) since they sound similar.  Often she'll pick up words from the TV show and use them in her day-to-day life (ditto for a few Chinese words from Kai Lan). 

I think a bit part of this too is how interested the child is in the show itself.  DD loves Dora/Kai Lan and is constantly begging to watch it (obviously, we don't let her watch it all day, though).  That being said, if you put on certain TV shows in Portuguese she would ignore them entirely and obviously learn 0 vocab words because of it (unless it's Monica, which she loves, and picks up way more than I'd like for her to!). 

And I definitely agree about the difference between preverbal infants and highly verbal toddlers.  We didn't let DD watch any TV until she was already speaking some.  However, even from the beginning of her days watching TV she would mention things about the shows and try to follow along.  I just can't imagine that happening with a preverbal infant (who knows, maybe I'm wrong?).

[LROM]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan 

Pocoyo for Spanish.

Pororo for Korean, although there are lots of Spanish dubs I don't know either language well enough to evaluate the translations.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=382DCEB7BCFD4965 this playlist will get you into the Japanese kids videos. (#22 is dd's favorite)
 

Cool, thanks for those links!

[LROM]

Originally Posted by physmom 

Great points.  I can't watch that video at this time but I've read some similar articles and there's a lot missing from the studies.  There's a big difference between parents who supplement their child's language learning experience with TV/DVD and those who rely entirely on the TV/DVDs. 

I've seen DD pick up a number of words from TV.  DD's bilingual in Portuguese and English and she watches Dora.  Well, we've actually had to correct her a number of times because she was mixing Portuguese and Spanish (DH and I do not speak any Spanish, although we understand quite a bit) since they sound similar.  Often she'll pick up words from the TV show and use them in her day-to-day life (ditto for a few Chinese words from Kai Lan). 

I think a bit part of this too is how interested the child is in the show itself.  DD loves Dora/Kai Lan and is constantly begging to watch it (obviously, we don't let her watch it all day, though).  That being said, if you put on certain TV shows in Portuguese she would ignore them entirely and obviously learn 0 vocab words because of it (unless it's Monica, which she loves, and picks up way more than I'd like for her to!). 

And I definitely agree about the difference between preverbal infants and highly verbal toddlers.  We didn't let DD watch any TV until she was already speaking some.  However, even from the beginning of her days watching TV she would mention things about the shows and try to follow along.  I just can't imagine that happening with a preverbal infant (who knows, maybe I'm wrong?).

Too funny, just yesterday I was at the playground with DD and a native Spanish-speaking mom was telling her son to grab the yellow bars and I kept hearing her say "amarillo" and I looked at DD and she touched the yellow bar herself and said "amarillo!", so that right there is proof that Dora exposure works, since that is the only place we've had the chance to talk about colors in Spanish.

I definitely think it takes reinforcing from parents (as well as some level of excitement/energy/focus) for the small bits of language they can get on a show like Dora or Kai-lan, but there is definitely an impact from those videos on many children.

And I second the thing about you not needing to be a native speaker to develop a wonderful comprehension of language.  I started learning French in middle school, spoke it very well conversationally by end of college, and then spent 6 weeks in France after college (much of it with English speakers also travelling there), but by the time I left it took native French people a little while to figure out I wasn't actually French, which I took as a huge compliment.  Unfortunately I also haven't practiced and forgot a lot of it,a lthough if I pick up a French newspaper I'm suprised at how much I do still understand.

It's all about reinforcement as far as I can tell: reinforcing what your toddler is learning (even if you're barely 2 steps ahead in the language yourself) and making it fun and focusing on it so your toddler also gets that it's important at some level.  If nothing else it's a brain-expander and may develop a love of languages in your child that will grow and expand as they get older, even if they don't actually remember the specific things they learned with you.

And OP, my point about ethnic restaurants (even on your infrequent visits) is - IF there are native speakers there, which I know is not always the case - just talking to staff and asking a few basic words and getting your toddler used to hearing others speak in other languages.  Even just googling not just cartoons but other shows in other languages and getting your toddler used to just the concept of other languages and cultures is at least a little step in that direction, even if it doesn't lead to actual comprehension.

[carmel23]

I agree that even a non-native speaker exposing some second language is better then nada.  My kids have a second language at school, and I know some of this language and a related romance language (plus a lot of Latin).  What we've done is picked a room where we speak our second language (Español).  For now it is our bedroom, but I'd like to also make the kitchen our second room for our second language. 

For me part of the difficulty is having enough confidence to speak the language--so that is why we practice at home, because it builds confidence.  I am sure I am not the best teacher, but for my 14 month-old, I am pretty good. 

Español books live there, and we listen to music, etc. It is fun!