I didn't understand this line of thinking...

[AFWife]

My new (intact!) DS had a horrible tongue tie. Heart shaped, couldn't lick his lower lip...it was bad. I waited until 8 weeks to clip it because the midwife said that sometimes it can get better as they nurse. It was such a tiny thing. She did it at a parenting meeting we were attending. It took all of 5 seconds and he nursed right after. (He was more upset we held him down)

That being said I'll get to where I'm confused...

When I first mentioned getting it done DH was not a fan of it (he even left the room while she was doing it) because he didn't want to hurt the baby. This is the same guy that argued with me for MONTHS about circ'ing. I even pointed that out to him. When we mentioned it to MIL her thought was, "So you worried about cutting his penis but his little tongue is okay?" Uhm, yes, one is unnecessary and one is necessary for his health and development. When my mom asked about circ'ing and I said no she said something about getting it done to prevent a certain infection they get when they're older (?????) When I told her today that I clipped his tongue she said, "Oh? You decided to do that? And what about circ'ing??"

Tell me how the two are connected?!? And why is clipping a tongue tie such a "big deal" but circumcising is nothing?

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

No idea where they get that line of thinking. But then I could never wrap my head around the whole circ thing to begin with.

[littlest birds]

They're not.  She's biased and stuck on still thinking about the circ issue all the time when she talks to you.  She automatically connects whatever come up to bolster her opinions/throw at your differing opinion, whether it holds together or not.

You're right.  I promise. 

[DahliaRW]

Totally not the same thing.  I had dd's tongue clipped because she couldn't nurse (very badly tongue tied).  Talked extensively to the oral surgeon who assured me that the nerve endings do not fully develop until around 3 months.  Which is why the child has to be knocked out after then for the procedure.  To make sure it didn't hurt her, he used a topical anasthetic.  But honestly, she didn't cry, didn't look in shock, and nursed (effectively for the first time!) right after it was done. 

So I say you're right!

[So-Called]

The exact same thing happened to us. The surgeon we saw confirmed that DS had a severe tongue tie, and he wasn't getting enough milk. His weight gain slowed, then stopped completely. His TT was so bad that he couldn't even latch on to a bottle of EBM. We didn't feel we had any choice but to get it clipped when he was a few weeks old.

Here's the thing, though . . . clipping the tongue isn't remotely like circ'ing for one key reason: Ankyloglossia is a birth defect/abnormality; a foreskin is not. The only way you could compare the two is if you had decided to clip his perfectly normal frenulum.

But you know what absolutely KILLED me about the whole thing? The same people who were asking us how soon we could have DS circ'ed (when he was an hour old ) and freaking out that we weren't going to do it were the same ones who cringed and cried and acted totally horrified when we said we'd probably have to get his frenulum clipped. Do. not. get it.

[SpiderMum]

A tongue tie is a birth defect....a foreskin is not.  Last time I checked no infants have died have having their tongue clipped.  My daughter had to have her tongue AND lip clipped (the latter under general anesthesia at 6-months) and it was totally worthwhile....and she was HAPPY afterward!  Apparently both were uncomfortable for her!  Meanwhile I'd never cut off my child's foreskin because that is a healthy functional body part and removing it would be horribly painful and traumatic...plus damage his future sex-life!

[PuppyFluffer]

I will venture to guess that your husband has formed a bond with his baby and the thought of witnessing any pain being done to him is distressing - even though he knows it is short pain and for a beneficial reason.  Having him circumcised at a day or two of age is done before your husband has allowed himself to bond with the baby.  I think it's possible that many (circumcised) men don't fully connect with their infant boys until after the circumcision.  I think there is a deep unconscious inability to truly connect until they are the "same" for some men.  I'm taking a huge guess there but I suspect I'm right

Edited by PuppyFluffer - 3/2/11 at 6:35am

[ammiga]

Originally Posted by PuppyFluffer 

I will venture to guess that your husband has formed a bond with his baby and the thought of witnessing any pain being done to him is distressing - even though he knows it is short pain and for a beneficial reason.  Having him circumcised at a day or two of age is done before your husband has allowed himself to bond with the baby.  I think it's possible that many (circumcised) men don't fully connect with their infant boys until after the circumcision.  I think there is a deep unconscious inability to truly connect until they are the "same" for some men.  I'm taking a huge guess there but I suspect I'm right

I don't think men bond with babies in general for a bit of time, and the circumcision has little/nothing to do with it. Newborns are pretty much attached to their moms and have very little interest in anyone else. My husband is extremely attached to our kids, but will readily admit that he didn't get to bond with them for several months. I think if circumcisions were routinely done at a later time (say 2-3 months after birth), the rates would go way down. Parents would be very attached to their babies at that point, and they would have had a chance to see how easy the foreskin is to care for.

[Mom2Brendan]

Me neither but I still can't ever wrap my head around circumcision .   I'm guessing people who are so used to circ being nothing and they don't see foreskin as part of the boys body yet but they do see a tongue as part of everybody body so there is proably some mental disconnect there .

[asraidevin]

If you can't see their pont of view, why do you expect them to see yours? Not being mean or nasty, I just mean I notice how people expect others to have the same worldview, same tastes and we don't understand when people differ. unless you've had a tongue tied baby, you don't have any idea about the issues invovled or treatment. I hate leaving the house because I have to explain at least twice my son has a blocked tear duct not an infection, three people have heard of it in 11 months.

[summermommy2004]

When DS was really little, I suspected an upper lip tie. I still think he may have one, though his latch has corrected itself and so I'm not pursuing anything as far as having it clipped. But I had mentioned the idea to my DH one night and he was like "Oh, so you'll do that -- might as well circ him too." *headdesk* So point being -- it's not just your DH who has that line of thinking. I explained it much the same way though -- that clipping the lip tie would be necessary for proper milk transfer, but that circ is not necessary for... anything. 

[kythe]

I've actually used this argument against circumcision, from the opposite perspective as your mil. Surgeries have their place, when you need them. My ds had his tongue tie clipped at 6 days old. He had not latched onto the breast at all until then, but had been receiving only pumped breastmilk and formula in a bottle with a widened nipple. Clipping his tongue was a need in order for him to feed properly.

He also had his tonsils and adenoids removed at age 3 because their chronic enlargement was interfering with his ability to breathe normally, to fight infection, and to hear. None of us enjoyed the hospital stay, but this too was a need for him to develop normally.

He is not circumcised because he has never had problems with his penis. If he ever does, we will consider our options when the time comes, as we do with everything else. I am not a believer in surgery as a preventative measure. Ds has had surgery, but not unnecessarily.

[eepster]

My DS also had a severe tongue tie that was clipped when he was 6 days old.  It bugged me beyond belief that every health care person we discussed it with except for our pediatrician assured us that it was easier than his circ had been (they all just assumed.)

Thought there are certain similarities, in that they are both surgeries performed on very small babies with out general anesthesia, they are mostly very different.

1. Tongue ties are only clipped if the child has an actual problem, but circs are done only on normal boys. 
2. Circs are usually performed by OB/GYNs who are not experts in pediatric urology, tongue ties are typically referred to ENT Drs who are experts in surgery of the mouth.  
3. Circs take a several minutes, tongue ties take seconds.

I'm sure others could add to my list.  the first seems the most relevant though.  In the case of a person who has a real problem that requires circ (say a diabetic man whose foreskin has become gangrenous) it is perfectly fine to seek surgery, but there is no reason to have surgery when every thing is perfectly fine.

[Devaskyla]

Tongue tie is done on an area with no nerves (unless it's incredibly severe, in which case they use a local or general anesthetic). Circumcision is done on the most sensitive part of the human body, usually without any anesthetic at all. Tongue usually requires one tiny little snip & results in a few drops of blood. Babies often don't even notice it happening (saw this with my second son). Circumcision requires ripping, clamping & cutting and can result in severe blood loss & even bleeding to death. Babies often go into shock from the agony of it.

I've probably still missed something

[Treece]

This is what upsets me about the tongue tie v. circ issue: My ds2 and dd are both tt. When they were born not one medical personnel recommended clipping it BUT after ds2 was born, we were asked about circ a few times. It pains me. I can't stand that thought. My younger kids both have heart shaped tongues. NO ONE recommended FIXING it!!! My dd corrected hers with her long nails......... And ds2 has just lived with it. He talks great and nurses better!! Even at 3 yo.

OH, and I was talking to a neighbor about TT once, and said I wish that the doctor would clip "it" and she thought I was talking about circ, I said "Ew, no."

[Papai]

Originally Posted by ammiga 

I don't think men bond with babies in general for a bit of time, and the circumcision has little/nothing to do with it. Newborns are pretty much attached to their moms and have very little interest in anyone else. My husband is extremely attached to our kids, but will readily admit that he didn't get to bond with them for several months. I think if circumcisions were routinely done at a later time (say 2-3 months after birth), the rates would go way down. Parents would be very attached to their babies at that point, and they would have had a chance to see how easy the foreskin is to care for.

I don't know why you'd make such a sweeping generalization. I bonded with my son the minute he was born. I will never forget his birth and the immediate impression his being born left upon me. And many other fathers I've spoken to said the same.

[Papai]

Originally Posted by SpiderMum 

A tongue tie is a birth defect....a foreskin is not.  Last time I checked no infants have died have having their tongue clipped.  My daughter had to have her tongue AND lip clipped (the latter under general anesthesia at 6-months) and it was totally worthwhile....and she was HAPPY afterward!  Apparently both were uncomfortable for her!  Meanwhile I'd never cut off my child's foreskin because that is a healthy functional body part and removing it would be horribly painful and traumatic...plus damage his future sex-life!

That's pretty much the long and short of it for me.

[pigpokey]

If the doctors say "It's just a little snip" over and over, in people's minds it becomes true even though it's very false.  The membrane really is just a little snip.

The only possible analogy with the penis is if a boy was born with his foreskin attached via a membrane to one of his legs so that every time he peed  it would run down his leg.  And in that case of course removal of the foreskin would not be the correct surgery; you would snip the membrane to free the penis so that he could pee conveniently, and eventually use other functions.

In the case of tongue tie, too much membrane can prevent effective nursing and / or proper speech sounds, so if the baby is not nursing and gaining weight or the mom's nipples are in pain from the latch you snip the excess membrane to make the tongue function correctly.  If nursing is going great, you might choose to wait and see how speech is, or to take care of it ahead of time.

[ammiga]

Originally Posted by Papai 

I don't know why you'd make such a sweeping generalization. I bonded with my son the minute he was born. I will never forget his birth and the immediate impression his being born left upon me. And many other fathers I've spoken to said the same.

I didn't mean that no bond existed or that there wasn't an immediate connection- there certainly is. From the moment my kids were born (heck even before then), my husband would throw himself in front of a moving bus to save our children a small bruise.

But, from my experience and with family and friends, a different bond happens when the baby starts to need you, reach for you, and want you. Babies don't really need their dads in the beginning, and the connection that I've seen babies have with their fathers develops more over time. It also does with mothers, but to a lesser extent, since there was so much more on the mother from the moment of birth. Although, in this day, I think moms get swept up in the medicalization of birth, worrying and not worrying about man details that also diminish the initial bond.