High NNAT score but only above average cogAT? Further testing warranted?

[mommmyto1]

Hi everyone,

 

I am new here and have a question on the CogAT and NNAT.

My son is 5 (about to turn 6) and in kindergarten at a public school. He was referred for testing by his teacher to see if he qualified for the g&t program. They look at CogAT, NNAT and MAP scores.

We got the scores back and though he did well on the NNAT and his MAP scores were high enough, his cogAT scores were just slightly above average so he was not accepted into the program. Students have to score in the 97% or above in all areas.

Scores:
CogAT V-118
CogAT q-110
CogAT nv-119
NNAT -136 (99%)

MAP-R- 99% (RIT 187)

MAP-M-99% (RIT 197)

 

I am wondering about the discrepancy between the test scores. After doing some research, it seems the cogAT corresponds fairly well to the WISC and that the NNAT has been noted to have problems with norming thus scores or often too high or too low. So not sure how much stock can be put into that test?

 

I am curious if there is anyone who has a child that took these tests and then went on to have a full IQ test done, did the tests correlate?  I am wondering if further testing would be wise?  I would like to be prepared should I decide to test next year, as the school will consider outside testing with sufficient reason.

 

My son in some areas seems gifted (reading by 4, interest in mazes by 3 and drawing complex mazes by 4, completing 550 piece puzzles at 3 1/2, natural ability with numbers; able to add three digit numbers in head, multiple, etc.)...really it is the VS stuff that has stood out since a young age. But he may just be strong in that area with an overall IQ that is in the average or on the high end of average? It seems if he was gifted the cogAT would have picked that up and that I can't put much stock in the high NNAT score. His teacher said she thought he would test into the g&t program within the next year or two and that the NNAT score does indicate something is there and that I may want to pursue further testing to tease it all out but I am jsut not sure.

 

I would really love some opinions. I just want to do what is best for him and his schooling.

 

If you got this far thank you! I really appreciate anyone taking the time to read and respond.

[whatsnextmom]

I admit to knowing little of the NNAT and the MAP. I had to look them up. With what you said about your DS, sounds like he's a natural for NNAT which would favor visual-spatial kids. The MAP looks like an regular achievement test. Unless it was an out-of-level test, it's pretty much only telling you he knows his own grade level material well. I don't know tons about the CoGat but I've heard it's pretty reliable. Honestly though, testing is just a snapshot of who your child was that day. He may have had an off day. You could be right in that he has some visual-spatial gifts but perhaps not globally gifted. Or the test just may not be a good measure of him.

At this point, I probably wouldn't worry too much about it. Make sure to keep advocating for accomodations he needs as gifted programs often don't address the issues they need to address. Advocating for changes WITHIN the class may do him far better in the long run. Have him test again next year or the following year and he may do better on the Cogat.

[mommmyto1]

Thank you so much for your reply! 

MAP testing is out-of-level testing. It is a computer based program that gives you an RIT score

unrelated to the age or grade level of the student. It is supposed to help teachers find the appropriate instructional level for each child so for instance my son has an RIT score in math of 197 which puts him above 99% for K, and first grade, at the 82% for second and down to 43% for 3rd so theoretically I guess he would do well with math curriculum at the second grade level. Receiving instruction at the level though has not really happened.

And I also realize that achievement scores do not necessarily correlate with IQ and even though our school requires children to do well on the MAP tests (should be two grade levels ahead) I know they put much more stock into the cogAT and NNAT with the cogAT being the one they really look it.

I think you may be right in that advocating for in class adjustments may be what I need to do to make sure he is being approrpiately challenged and that the g&t program may not be what is necessarily needed for him. At least not at this time.

Thank you for taking the time to respond and provide some insight!!

[Serenity Now]

I think this is a good situation to keep an eye on your child and see how he matures as a student. It may be that in a year or so he is easily accepted in to G&T. Or maybe not. I'm not so sure that my oldest would have been able to get in to G&T if I had consented to testing because she was so young, and a little flighty, and she hadn't really learned how to play the educational game yet. I believe that part of the bias of these tests is towards students who are already good test takers. And while I'm sure some 5 year olds absolutely are, I think a lot of gifted kids don't test well at such a young age (well, I'm not sure that any kids test well at that age, actually). That changes as they get more used to testing situations. I finally gave my consent to have my oldest tested this year for G&T and supposedly she blew away the G&T teacher with her scores. They verbally gave me the scores over the phone because they were so excited, but I never got the standard deviation, so I really don't know how her scores compare. I never sought the info out because I kind of don't care. Maybe that sounds bad, but how she compares to her peers on standardized tests doesn't matter to me at all; she's the same kid she was before. :)

As far as school goes, is there a difference now that she is in G&T vs when she wasn't? Nah. Not really. They pull them out a few times a week for their lessons and projects. And it has really boosted her self esteem. But in her day to day class, there's not much difference, and the reason is that they were already being forced to give her special accommodations in class from the start. So, aside from the fact that she now feels a sense of where she belongs, doing the G&T testing has done little for her academically (IMO).

[quaz]

The way I look at Cogat, is if you have a nice high score, it means you are most likely gifted. A low score does not mean a child is not gifted.

I know at least one child who's Cogat was not high enough, but his  IQ test showed him as gifted.

In addition, in our district, only 97% in a section is needed.  Both of my girls are not strong verbal listeners, and when they took Cogat before they entered K, the verbal subsection was read to them. When my younger daughter came out of the test, she told me that she thought her teacher said penguin, but she actually said pencil.

Items like that can cause a score to drop. This said child who 'only' scored in the 80s in the verbal subsection, has read the first five HP books at the age of 6, and got high AR test scores on all of them. There is no doubt in my mind that the verbal section score was quite off. In addition, there is absolutely no doubt this child is quite gifted. She ceilinged the non-verbal section. She 'only' got a 96% in the quantitative. This is a child that at six, figured out how to do 95x43 on her own, and will ask for problems for fun....she was at a 2nd grade math level at the age of 4.

It is one reason I strongly dislike schools that require 97% in all sections. I think it is easy to miss kids that are gifted, especially if they are anywhere on the creative or out-of-the box thinkers.... or if they are far more visual thinkers (poor auditory skills), and are required to complete a verbal subsection based on what someone is saying.

In another case... I had a child score HIGHLY low on the non-verbal sub-section. This was a section she stated was her favorite, and she did great on it. I think it was a simple case of misunderstanding the directions and solving items vertically instead of horizontally, which threw off all the scores.

If you think your child is gifted, he most likely is, and the cogat scores are just off.

The big question is what does your g/t program offer? Is it a self-contained classroom or a weekly pull-out?

If the former, then I would look for other options. If it is the later, then I would look at retesting at some point, and insuring he has classroom accomodations.

Tammy

[mommmyto1]

Thank you Serenity Now (love that screen name). Yes I tend to agree with you that most 5 year olds are likely not good test takers. Guess that may be part of the reason it is pretty rare to get into the G&T program at our school in the early years. Though there are always several children who do get in on their first try in kindergarten.

May I ask, did you have to advocate for special accomodations in the classroom for your daughter? I have broached the idea with his teacher, especially in regards to math differentiation. Initally there were 3 or 4 students in kindergarten who had high MAP math scores and the teachers proposed grouping them together for excellerated math instruction. However that fell through. I am still not sure why the administration did not want them to do that. So as of now he is not receiving anything. I do really like his teacher and she does try and meet each child where they are at and does have him at a 2nd grade instructional level for reading and he is in an accelerated reading group after school so that helps but math is an area where he excels and would love to see something in that area. I also realize he is only in kindergarten and not sure if I need to push at this point. I want to see him thrive in all areas of school, socially and academically and enjoy it so it is a back and forth I guess of when to push for something and when to let it go. Maybe I need to focus on enrichment more at home.

Thank you for your feedback!

[quaz]

Yes I tend to agree with you that most 5 year olds are likely not good test takers. Guess that may be part of the reason it is pretty rare to get into the G&T program at our school in the early years. Though there are always several children who do get in on their first try in kindergarten

While test taking may be part of it, and that was my concern going in, what I have felt after having had two kids take it, is that test taking was not the issue for them, and the issues really stemmed more from the items I posted above. Do you know if he did the questions at his own pace, or if the instructor read the questions?

[mommmyto1]

Thank you Tammy! It is a weekly pull-out program which in early elementary does not amount to much but gets much better in 3rd and 4th grade and above. That is also when more kids tend to start testing into the program. I say more, but it is still relatively few that are accepted as the requirements are fairly high but there is a big leap for some reason for kids who did not make it in k-2 who will test again and get in around 4th grade. Wonder if that holds true for a lot of g&t programs?

All sections of the Cogat are read for k-2 at his school and I do wonder if that was difficult for my son. He also tends to be highly visual which is why I assume he did well on the NNAT. And it does astound me his lowest score was quantitative and his math has always been so strong almost intuative. Just just the other day he was reading a book where the character's mom told him he was going to get 3 baths a day for a year if did not do chores and my son said hmm so 300 x 3 is 900 and 60 x3 is 180 so 900 + 180 is 1080 and 5x3 is 15 so 1080 + 15 is 1095 that is alot of baths :-)  

So I truly waiver if he is globally gifted or maybe just advanced and gifted in VS arena.

I think what everyone has said makes sense. I should focus on accomodations in the classroom. The G&T program may or may not be something I need to pursue in the future depending on how he develps as he progresses through school.

Thank you for your response!

[mommmyto1]

The instructor read the questions to them. I think his teacher said the cogAT is read until 3rd grade and then it becomes a timed test that students read to themselves. My son is a good reader and I honestly think would have done better reading it to himself :-) 

[ollyoxenfree]

I agree with the advice you've received from pp. I would seek some in-class accommodations and consider re-testing at some point in the future. I viewed testing as an opportunity to gather some additional information about my dc and it was useful for that purpose. I didn't view it as a final judgement on their ability or achievement. It's helpful to remember that criteria for admission differs for gifted programs. Whether he meets the criteria for the gifted program in your school district or not, it's clear that he is a bright, advanced learner at this stage. I would focus on working with his teachers to create a good learning environment at school, as well as at home. You may find some good ideas if you search terms like "in-class differentiation" or "enrichment in the regular classroom". It sounds like the teacher is supportive, and that's often half the battle. 

At your ds's age, we found subject acceleration worked well. For example, DS was advanced in language arts, so he worked in an upper grade for this subject, but stayed with his class for the rest of the day. Keep in mind that there is some skillful management necessary for a successful subject acceleration. For report card evaluation, his teacher took into account his less-developed writing skills, so assignments and tests needed some adjustment. She had to mark him at an age/grade appropriate level as far as writing was concerned.  

As for pushing - if he seems to be struggling to stay engaged at school or he's seeking something more challenging and is getting frustrated because he isn't getting it, I wouldn't call it "pushing" to ask for some enrichment. The signs are often unmistakeable - boredom, discouragement, lack of interest, poor behaviour, mischief-making etc.....

OTOH, if he's engaged, involved, and content to focus on other academic, social or developmental areas, then he may not need much differentiation at this point. This can change from year to year, or even month to month, so it's important to stay in touch with his teachers, maintain a good working relationship with them and be open to trying different approaches.

[chaimom]

I think you can safely assume your son is gifted. The puzzle and math ability is so amazing for such a young guy.  It doesn't matter whether he's "globally gifted"-- he's gifted.  I think you could also assume he had a bad testing day on the CogAT.   In our district, it's Ravens and CoGat.  A friend's son just tested at 90 pct on CogAT when they tested him in school.  He's in K now and took the test with 30 other kids.  My friend thought the score seemed low, so she had him privately tested for IQ and he was in the 99.8th pct.  Clearly, her son didn't respond well to the testing situation.  She was able to petition with the IQ scores and get him into the HGT program, even though the district says they won't take outside scores.    

If you think your son would benefit from whatever GT program your school provides, I would do additional testing.  

[mommmyto1]

Thank you so much everyone for your advice and input. I really appreciate it!

[LynnS6]

Another thing to think about for his "low" math scores: It's possible that some of number of the problems were word problems. If your son is strongly visual-spatial, he might do much better answering those problems when he can see and write his thinking out than if he has to listen to the questions.

[mom2ponygirl]

I've read that group administered aptitude tests such as the OlSAT or CoGAT are reasonably good instruments for moderately gifted kids.  However, a significant number of highly gifted kids do poorly on these tests.  There is a tendency to over think the questions.  I would look for a different instrument if you are looking for a better idea of your child's abilities.  I think it is highly likely that your child is gifted, but either had a bad day or does not do well on these kinds of group ability tests. 

For what its worth, I don't think my highly gifted girl would have done well on a test like the CoGAT at a young age.  Her montessori school did do individual achievement testing with her at age 5 and she did very well.  The test administrator commented that she did fine as long as she was allowed to move around.  Evidently she did most of the test sitting upside down in her chair with her head on the ground and her feet kicking in the air. LOL

Brag alert - she did learn to sit still and take tests, now that she is 12.  She just got her scores from taking the ACT for 7th grade talent search.  She scored high enough to qualify for the state university's honor college without sitting upside down. :-)

[Serenity Now]

Originally Posted by mommmyto1 

Thank you Serenity Now (love that screen name). Yes I tend to agree with you that most 5 year olds are likely not good test takers. Guess that may be part of the reason it is pretty rare to get into the G&T program at our school in the early years. Though there are always several children who do get in on their first try in kindergarten.

May I ask, did you have to advocate for special accomodations in the classroom for your daughter? I have broached the idea with his teacher, especially in regards to math differentiation. Initally there were 3 or 4 students in kindergarten who had high MAP math scores and the teachers proposed grouping them together for excellerated math instruction. However that fell through. I am still not sure why the administration did not want them to do that. So as of now he is not receiving anything. I do really like his teacher and she does try and meet each child where they are at and does have him at a 2nd grade instructional level for reading and he is in an accelerated reading group after school so that helps but math is an area where he excels and would love to see something in that area. I also realize he is only in kindergarten and not sure if I need to push at this point. I want to see him thrive in all areas of school, socially and academically and enjoy it so it is a back and forth I guess of when to push for something and when to let it go. Maybe I need to focus on enrichment more at home.

Thank you for your feedback!

Honestly, and I know this is not the way most parents feel, for us school is basically a place to go and make friends. I never asked for special accommodations in class for dd, and only found out about what they were doing with her from her. Some of it I don't agree with because I think it singles her out too much, like letting her take tests ahead of time and go out for recess while the rest of the class takes the test, or having her teach math to the other kids. Her teachers (3 years in a row, in 3 different schools, they asked her to teach math) have said that she comes up with ways of doing the math problems that are easier for the kids in class to do, and that she has a way of explaining it that makes everyone understand it faster. I don't really get it, to tell the truth. I mean, I have literally gotten notes home that they are changing the way they teach certain portions of math because she found some new way of doing it. I wonder how much of that is bunk, but what do I know? I'm not in the classroom. I just can't imagine that a 6 or 7 year old is really better at math than the teacher. I think her teachers have been forced to come up with ways to keep her busy and her mind active. Not because she acts out, because she really doesn't. And I wonder if that is the reason why they are so eager to help her. It's disconcerting to have a 6 year old staring at you for an hour with nothing to do because the test took her only 10 minutes, for example. This year she was the first student in the school to finish AR, and now she has started over and is nearly half done again.

Oddly enough, we have been told many times that she is profoundly gifted in art, but she got the lowest scores on the creativity test that she took. Who knows why. at one of her schools they recommended that we send her to a private art institute, and this year her art teacher was one of the first to nominate her for G&T. I don't see how you accurately test creativity anyway. So, between my experience with her on these tests, and my experience with my autistic son and tests, I tend to be skeptical of the ability of any of these tests to accurately define developmental levels or giftedness.

But anyway, I really see school as just a place to experience things you wouldn't really experience at home, be exposed to kids and cultures that you may not experience in such depth at home. And then we do the academics at home. So that's why I never wanted her tested and am not concerned with what she is doing in school right now. We do a lot of learning at home, so I mostly want her to have a good time and have a lot of friends at school. But, I finally let her get tested because they were doing all of these extra things with her anyway, and now she feels more like she has a place where she belongs.

I know our philosophy about these things is vastly different than most other parents. And I'm not saying that we are right, and everyone else is wrong. I see both sides. So, by stating my thoughts I am in no way trying to invalidate any one else's beliefs or point of view. These are mine, and mine alone, and I respect the fact that other people don't share them, and I respect their views as well.

[mommmyto1]

Mom2ponygirl, congratulations to your daughter...what an accomplishment at 12! That is absolutely amazing!

I appreciate the insight into potential problems for highly gifted children with group administered tests. I would be curious, are parents typically good estimators as to if their children are gifted? I would think they would be better than teachers, though teachers opinions probably hold more weight in the evaluation process for g&t programs at school. I can honestly say I have no idea where my son would fall on a gifted scale, if he even met the criteria. Are parents usually suprised when they get IQ scores back and are they often higher than expected? Or lower? I would be interested in reading about that. I truly believe in gut instincts and think most parents probably are pretty good at identifying giftedness in their children. I for some reason feel like I don't have a clue! I am indecisive by nature maybe that is my problem :-)

[mommmyto1]

SerenityNow, I can understand completely where you are coming from. Every child is different so what works for one family will not for another.

I think it is kind of cool your daughter can teach math better than the teachers! My husband is the math guy. I always did okay but was never a natural so when I see people who just naturally get math I think it is pretty neat. But I also understand your misgivings. My son has become the teacher's helper in class and his teacher has told me that he is able to help the children without putting them off, but I still worry it makes him stand out and socially I do not want it to become an issue.

[mom2ponygirl]

Originally Posted by mommmyto1 
 I would be curious, are parents typically good estimators as to if their children are gifted? I would think they would be better than teachers, though teachers opinions probably hold more weight in the evaluation process for g&t programs at school. 

I've seen articles (probably on hoagies gifted) that referenced research that stated that parents were significantly better at identifying their kids as gifted than teachers were.  I never went back and looked at the original research so i really can't say how valid I think that is.  From anecdotal evidence, I would agree.