Late talking, but ahead in other areas?

[mbravebird]

I have no idea if my child is gifted -- I'm here because he's talking late, but is also way ahead in other things, and I'm figuring you all might have some info about that, and give me some perspective. I'm aware of the Einstein Syndrome book but haven't read it yet.

He's 21 months and just has a few words -- mama, papa, uh-oh, and some others I can't remember because he says them so infrequently. He said "wampa" (from Hoth Wampa, which his brother was looking for at the time) the other day, but then stopped as soon as he realized that we noticed it. Every now and then it's clear he's trying to say something else, but can't quite articulate the sounds (like for "apple" or "brother"). He makes up his own sound effects for particularly important words, like "truck", and uses the sound effect instead of the word.

But he could carry a tune and hum it in time by 15 or 16 months old. His brother couldn't do that until he was five. Also, it was a classical music tune, with many half steps and complex rhythm. That seems stunningly advanced to me. His receptive language skills are great -- he seems way ahead in receptive language, actually. He can hear what I'm saying even if his back is turned and I'm speaking softly, and responds to multiple-step instructions that way.

He seems physically more dexterous than many kids, and he just seems bright in general. He's got a lot of light behind his eyes. He's very social, has a good sense of humor.

So...is he way ahead in music, as it seems to me? Could that be part of the late talking picture? I have nothing to compare this to, as my other son was very verbally precocious, but couldn't sing until he was five.

My gut says everything is absolutely fine, and that he will have a language explosion at some point and to just buckle in for the adventure.

Any thoughts?

ETA: the other area he seems somewhat advanced in is puzzles and fitting together shapes -- he did that stuff seemingly early to me, like when he was a small baby just learning to sit. Again, I don't know what's normal here, or if it could be part of the late talking picture.

Edited by mbravebird - 3/4/11 at 6:46am

[JamieCatheryn]

My toddler is just the same, after 21 months and he's finally started saying a couple new words every week (before he just said "Hi"), I'm sure he'll be caught up soon. He amazed us by humming the melody of a complex hymn right after we stopped singing several weeks back. He certainly has an ear for music. He is also really great at puzzles too, stuff labeled for 2 or 3 years, he and his brother both are amazing at spatial stuff. Whether his talents will turn out to be giftedness I don't know, maybe just his strengths right now. I do plan to foster that gift for music, sing with him, play music, introduce him to instruments and later to reading music. Nothing too structured for a long while but make sure he plays with it you know? His brother wasn't nearly as early to hit notes or try to sing, of course I'll introduce both of them to opportunities to practice.

Oh I just saw a documentary about science and music, it showed how singing and speaking were totally separate in the brain, stroke survivors who couldn't speak could still sing even. Also newborns and infants had musical timing and note steps to their crying.

[whatsnextmom]

My DS didn't say a single word until about 19 months. At that point, he started in with full sentances and hasn't stopped talking since. It's a big joke in the family that the doctor wanted to send him to speech therapy at 18 months (though I appreciate a doctor that is quick to take action.) I've read that children who are in highly musical homes tend to talk later. I don't know how that works in with giftedness but I know that my DS follows that pattern (though DD lived in same environment at was talking a 7 months.)

I'd probably hold out a little longer. If he's not saying anything by two, maybe talk to the doctor. I know that at 3, the local school districts in our area start offering speech therapy for free.

[physmom]

I haven't read Einstein Syndrome either but I found a chapter or two online on google reader awhile back and have read what I could find online for free.  It really described DH to a T. Here's what he was like growing up:

• No real words before 2 but he had his own made up language.  After 2 he started talking in paragraphs.
• Lots (really, really lots) of engineers and science professionals in his family
• Musically gifted (ok, NOT singing but he's great with stringed instruments)
• He's a boy.

Now he didn't have any social delays (he did have some social issues later on and sometimes he has some signs of Aspergers but those are pretty minimal, his dad on the other hands is another story...).  He also was potty trained before 1 so again that doesn't fit quite either. 

FWIW, we expected DD might have some speech delays (I wasn't a super early talker either although when I did decide to speak it would be in complete sentences.  Plus we're a bilingual family) so we did baby signing with her.  That went over very, very well and even though she really didn't start speaking speaking on a consistent basis until about 18 months she was signing in sentences well before then.  DD is also a puzzle fiend too, btw.  It's been such a fun way to interact with her.

[quaz]

I guess I am not understanding what your question is.

Just because a child talks late, doesn't mean they can't be ahead in other areas, nor does it exclude giftedness.

In addition, spoken language and receptive language are also very different from each other.

See how his speech is after his 2 year growth spurt, and if you have concerns, talk with your pediatrician.

My oldest child started 2 word sentences at 25 months.

You could be running into articulation issues, where he may be speaking more than you think, but at this point it is difficult to say.  Usually articulation items are not address until  a minimum of 2 1/2.

[RiverTam]

DS1 is gifted and has Mixed Expressive Receptive Language Disorder. He hit all of his language milestones on time, but he never talked much.  He never told me about his day, if I had been gone, and he never talked to me about what was going on, and he never talked to me about his friends or his toys. He didn't talk about stuff. He had a decent vocabulary and he put sentences together, but he didn't use them, even at age 4 or 5.

At the same time, he was clearly gifted. He taught himself to read (with a little help from Between the Lions) by age 3 and could read fluently. He did advanced puzzles and legos and math.  He read extensively on lots of topics.

It was all fine until he go to first grade and then his language difficulties started causing behavioral problems. He had terrible trouble following verbal directions. He scored in the lowest 3% on the listening test for the Iowa Basics.

Speech therapy helped with this a great deal. He has much better expressive and receptive language skills now.

If I had a concern about it, I wouldn't wait. Get it tested as soon as you can, and at least by 3. Your school district or Early Intervention will probably give you free speech and language therapy. The earlier you intervene the better your results will be. It's totally worth it and really painless. DS1 loves his speech therapist. He likes going to speech.

(Also, we watched a lot of Phineas and Ferb with my boys, and explicitly commented that DS1 is like Ferb -- he's really good at math and engineering stuff, but doesn't talk much. Ferb is cool and DS1 identified with that.)

[Galatea]

Ds1 didn't talk until he was 2.5 years old.  Then he just talked, all at once.  I didn't worry b/c I knew he understood me just fine, and he was the first and mommy was always there for his every need, so he didn't need to talk.  ;-)  Don't worry!

[mbravebird]

Thanks, everyone. All of these stories are helpful. I'm not even sure what I'm asking, either -- I guess I'm curious what the difference would be between healthy development that makes sense in the context of his overall development, and a delay that needs intervention. My gut says it's his own healthy development, but I guess part of my job is to question that, too, and make sure I'm doing the right things for him.

I got the Einstein Syndrome from the library today, and began to dip into it. He makes a good case for the idea that for some kids who are way ahead in music and math and spatial things, the language development takes a back seat. At this point it's only theoretical ideas about why that would be. But a small percentage of late talkers fit that bill.

And at 21 months, he's not yet a *really* late talker -- not like the ones in the book, at least.

Oddly enough, the librarian who helped me find the book is married to an Einstein Syndrome kid. Her husband didn't talk until something like three or four, and by five his parents were told he should be in special education. I forget how it all turned around, but eventually they realized that his abilities were just specialized to math, at which he was a complete whiz. Eventually all his abilities evened out, and he now has a Ph.D  in Literature and Religion. It was amazing to just run into her as I was checking out the book.

Any other thoughts would be welcome, too! At this point I think I'm going to go back to relaxing and being his mommy, and wait a few months more before doing anything formal.

[MittensKittens]

It's been interesting to read the replies in this thread. My daughter (nearly five) did not say a word until she turned two, and even then it started very slowly. She was talking more by three, but still less than other children her age. Now, she is not afraid to use her suddenly advanced vocabulary and will make perfect sentences in two languages. She also understands a third language but is having more trouble speaking it. I was starting to consider some kind of intervention when she started talking. Like the PP's husband, she is musically gifted. She is great with visual spatial stuff and math too. She is now an advanced talker, but she does have a foreign accent in both languages.

[Casha'sMommy]

I have only a minute but wanted to ask, as the mother of a child with hearing loss, have you had his hearing tested? Also, did he have the Universal Newborn Hearing Screening at birth? If he did, did he "pass" on multiple attempts? If he passed but not the first try or only after multiple attempts then you should be having him re-assessed around age 2.

Also wanted to add that my 16yo dd did not speak almost until age 2. She had a few single words but she used mostly babbling until 2 when she started speaking in full sentences.

[mom2ponygirl]

An old data point - I didn't talk or walk until nearly 2.  I became a nationally ranked athlete, and have a graduate degree in biochemistry.  Had the usual earmarks of a gifted kid by 5.

I wasn't too surprised or worried when my kiddo didn't walk until 15 months.  She also spoke a few words very early but didn't really take off until 2.  At 2 she spoke like a little adult. ;-)
 

Originally Posted by mbravebird 

Thanks, everyone. All of these stories are helpful.

[Lollybrat]

You've gotten some good answers and advice. Our story is different and I'm going to share it just to offer a different perspective and experience.

When my DS was 21months, he didn't have any consistent words. There were words he had said once or had said for a day, but then we wouldn't hear those words again and they didn't really develop into a vocabulary.

We weren't really worried, because we knew that all kids develop differently. We also knew that he was really smart. He could point out any color we asked for and any shape, including the more unusual shapes like parallelogram, trapezoid, hexagon, etc. He also could point out letters and numbers when we asked. He hummed also and babbled in a way that sounded like his own language. He seemed to understand everything we said. I read the Einstein Syndrome book and I felt pretty good about it.

Then I read "The Late Talker". This book has a really good section about the difference between a language delay and a language disorder. I started to realize that DS had several signs of disorder instead of a simple delay. This book focuses mainly on apraxia of speech, a disorder that affects expressive language, but not receptive language. A lot of what the authors described sounded like DS.

So I made an appointment with our ped to discuss development. He asked a lot of questions, did some screening scales and then ordered a hearing eval. The hearing test was hard, because DS was not fully cooperative, but in the end he passed. So I took DS to see the best Speech and Language Pathologist in the area at age 22 months. The SLP was very helpful. She diagnosed DS with expressive and receptive language delays. Although I had thought that DS's receptive language was good, the SLP pointed out that like most parents, we used a lot of receptive language with DS, and he could understand that. But when she said novel and unexpected things to him, he was unable to understand. She was unable to rule out a praxis of speech, because did not say any real words during the eval. She also told me that she suspected that DS may have Sensory Processing Disorder (SPD), but that she was not qualified to make that diagnosis. Additionally, she told me that DS would probably be an early reader. She strongly suggested that we contact Early Intervention for speech therapy and possibly OT. Lastly, she advised that if DS did not make string progress in 6 months, e should consider having him evaluated for Autism Spectrum Disorder, although she considered this unlikely.

Unfortunately, we were in the process on moving to another state, so contacting EI for services had to wait until we were settled in our new house. Soon after DS turned 2, we discovered that he could read and spell. DH and I walked into the living room to discover DS using his ABC blocks to spell out "helicopter", "motorcycle", and "emergency". When we were out and about he would follow written directions, like "use other door" and "keep off the grass". He still wasn't talking. We realized that his development had taken a very unusual turn.

We finally got things rolling with EI and DS qualified for speech and OT. We were shocked to learn that he had motor skill delays. DS also was given a grant for private Speech Therapy. After a few months, DS was invited to join the EI toddler class, which was a preschool-like setting that could provide him with more services. His EI therapists were amazed by how smart he was, but they suspected autism and gently urged me to have a full medical eval done by a developmental ped. DH disagreed with this, but I decided to have it done anyway.

It took 4 months to get an appointment with the developmental ped. During that time, DS had started talking. But most of what he said was echolalia and the rest of the time he spelled words out instead of saying the whole word. For example, he would stand in front of the fridge and yell "M-I-L-K" and he called us "M-O-M" and "D-A-D-D-Y" (spelled out). His reading ability was impressive and he could spell any word he had seen once. We discovered that he could count into the thousands and recognize numbers in the hundreds of thousands.

The diagnostic process took about 5 months and involved a lot of testing. In the end, DS was diagnosed with autism. He also has hyperlexia (a language processing disorder characterized by early reading combined with verbal language difficulties) and dypraxia (a motor planning disorder that affects his gross, fine, and oral-motor skills).

DS is now 6.5 years old and in the 1st grade. He is very academically advanced in reading and math and is possibly gifted. He definitely has autism. He struggles with pragmatic language (the social use of language), and he still understands what he reads better than what he hears. We have used cue cards, white boards, social stories, and other written materials to teach him everything, including verbal language. He has a near-photographic memory and loves to learn. In school, DS is partially mainstreamed, spending mornings in the regular 1st grade class and afternoons in the autism classroom. In the autism classroom he does academic work that is 1-2 grade level ahead, meaning that the work he does in special education is more challenging than the regular classroom. DS has a lot of challenges due to his autism, but he also has a lot of gifts and talents. His teachers and therapists do amazing work with him.

I am not saying that your child has autism or a language disorder. But I do think it's a good idea to be watchful, be cautious, and if you have concerns, get an evaluation. When I started to get concerned about DS, a lot of people told me about kids who had talked late and were just fine. It was comforting, but it gave me a false comfort. Looking back, I wish that more people had told me that it was OK to be worried and to get an evaluation done.

[mbravebird]

Wow, Lollybrat, you're right, I think it's good to hear that story. Thank you for sharing. May I ask what your gut was during this time -- did you feel like something was different, or did you feel like everything was OK? Just curious.

And Casha'sMommy, I have not had his hearing tested. It was the first thing I thought of, but then I noticed that he could follow directions and respond even when he had his back turned to me and I was speaking very softly. That made me feel less compelled to get his hearing tested. Are there kinds of hearing loss that would allow that kind of comprehension but interfere with word formation?

Part of my hesitation to just go and get some eyes on him is that I have another son with a major medical condition, and I know how the system snaps you up -- it's often like a runaway train once you get started. I hate to do that unnecessarily -- not just for my sake, but for his. Also, he just seems OK to me, and I keep coming back to that. But then I feel it's my duty to question it, too.

Thanks for the input...

[Casha'sMommy]

Originally Posted by mbravebird 

Wow, Lollybrat, you're right, I think it's good to hear that story. Thank you for sharing. May I ask what your gut was during this time -- did you feel like something was different, or did you feel like everything was OK? Just curious.

And Casha'sMommy, I have not had his hearing tested. It was the first thing I thought of, but then I noticed that he could follow directions and respond even when he had his back turned to me and I was speaking very softly. That made me feel less compelled to get his hearing tested. Are there kinds of hearing loss that would allow that kind of comprehension but interfere with word formation?

Part of my hesitation to just go and get some eyes on him is that I have another son with a major medical condition, and I know how the system snaps you up -- it's often like a runaway train once you get started. I hate to do that unnecessarily -- not just for my sake, but for his. Also, he just seems OK to me, and I keep coming back to that. But then I feel it's my duty to question it, too.

Thanks for the input...

I'm not in any position to diagnose anything or even suggest I may know what's going on, if anything. Knowing what I know now about the different types and degrees of hearing loss, I would have my child tested if I were you. You might be alarmed at the actual numbers re: cases of hearing loss in babies and young children. There are some organizations that provide testing for free without sending you into the system. Lyons Club is really good about testing people or sending you to the correct organization. You might also consider contacting your state School for the Deaf or an oral deaf school. They often have a testing department that is free to the child. Check here

Additionally, you can request testing through an audiologist although you may have to go through your pedi to get a referral especially if you want insurance to cover.

FWIW, I never would have known dd (4.5yo) was profoundly deaf unless I was already watching for it. This is a story for another thread but I thank the Universal Newborn Hearing Screening for alerting us to the fact that something might be going on. It didn't take me long to demand further testing and dd had hearing aids at 2 mo. Her loss was profound so she heard nearly nothing and that was painfully obvious but there are mild and moderate and sometimes unilateral losses that can have an impact on language development. What's the worst that happens? You have the opportunity to rule something out?

That's my two cents anyway.

GL and hth.

[Lollybrat]

Originally Posted by mbravebird 

Wow, Lollybrat, you're right, I think it's good to hear that story. Thank you for sharing. May I ask what your gut was during this time -- did you feel like something was different, or did you feel like everything was OK? Just curious.

Before age 21 months, my gut feeling was that DS was a developing a little slowly in this area, but not that anything was really wrong. DS had a tendency to hit some of his milestones at the end of "normal range" (crawling and walking, for example). I knew that the normal range for talking went as far as 24 months, so I wasn't really concerned. There were days when I worried, largely because DS had been a high risk pregnancy and some of the fear from that never went away. But most of tje time, I felt that DS would develop in his own time. Plus, as I said in other post, we knew DS was very smart. So we felt that overall he was doing well.

When DS was 20 months, we visited the ILs for the holidays. They were very critical about the fact that DS wasn't talking. Our niece, who is about 5 months younger than DS was much more verbal than DS. My ILs blamed DS 's lack of speech on my "bad parenting" and lectured me about it. I was furious! So after we returned home I started looking for books supporting my feeling that DS was developmentally fine. I found the Einstien Syndrome book, which reassured me. But then I found The Late Talker book, which made me look at things in a whole new light.

After reading The Late Talker and doing some research, my gut feelings changed. New info, new insights, new gut feeling. Things started falling into place. Talking to the SLP made me even more sure that something really was wrong. My DH disagreed with me. My ILs disagreed with me. I went forward with Early Intervention and the developmental ped despite all of their disapproval and objections. DH was in denial until we got the official diagnosis of autism. My ILs continued to blame DS's issues on my parenting skills for some time afterward, then eventually accepted the diagnosis.

After the fact, I realized that there were other aspects of DS's development that were "off", but I didn't realize it. DS had motor, sensory, and social quirks from day 1 that we saw, but because DS is our first (only) we didn't realize what was "normal" and what wasn't.

So I do believe that listening to your gut is a good thing. But I also think you need to remain open to new information and to the possibility that there may be more going on than your gut may recognize.

[lindberg99]

I agree with this! It does not hurt to get his hearing checked and it is not something that would respond to "watchful waiting" like an articulation delay, etc. would. My preemie was in EI and a bit behind in speech so he was referred for a hearing test. He turned out to have a lot of fluid in his ears, nothing permanent thankfully but something that was good to know,.

Originally Posted by Casha'sMommy 

I'm not in any position to diagnose anything or even suggest I may know what's going on, if anything. Knowing what I know now about the different types and degrees of hearing loss, I would have my child tested if I were you. You might be alarmed at the actual numbers re: cases of hearing loss in babies and young children. There are some organizations that provide testing for free without sending you into the system. Lyons Club is really good about testing people or sending you to the correct organization. You might also consider contacting your state School for the Deaf or an oral deaf school. They often have a testing department that is free to the child. Check here

Additionally, you can request testing through an audiologist although you may have to go through your pedi to get a referral especially if you want insurance to cover.

FWIW, I never would have known dd (4.5yo) was profoundly deaf unless I was already watching for it. This is a story for another thread but I thank the Universal Newborn Hearing Screening for alerting us to the fact that something might be going on. It didn't take me long to demand further testing and dd had hearing aids at 2 mo. Her loss was profound so she heard nearly nothing and that was painfully obvious but there are mild and moderate and sometimes unilateral losses that can have an impact on language development. What's the worst that happens? You have the opportunity to rule something out?

That's my two cents anyway.

GL and hth.

[quaz]

Adding on, my oldest has an apraxia diagnosis. I felt there was an issue when she was 12 months old. I know that seems insanely young, but I had speech concerns at that point.

I have two other kids. One kid will be starting speech at school for articulation. My youngest, probably will need speech at some point. My later two kids I haven't been concerned about, though, because I believe they have normal articulation issues.

What I've learned is that with normal speech development, there is a WIDE range of normal. It is why if one thinks there is an issue, there may be, or there may not be.

With my son, who talked later, I mainly took note of the developments he made between 2 - 2 1/2. He developed, his progression was just different. 

I think the questions are

1) is there development or is it stalled

2) do you have a big gut concern

3) age of the child.

I generally think it is important to look at all of those. Considering you had an early talker to start with, and a your son is under the age of 2... I know when I had that case with ds, I proceeded by waiting until he was 2 1/2, BUT carefully gauging the situation to see if my view changed, and to verify he was developing.

The reality is, if you have a concern, then simply ask your pediatrician about it or go check it out with a specialist.

If you want to take a different approach, gauge how he does between now and 2 1/2.

It was very clear by 2 1/3 that there was a large speech issue with my oldest child, and she had reached  a point that an SLP would see it, versus if I went to them about my 12 month old and her articulation.  If I would have taken my son of other daughter at that age, I would have been told there was a wide range of acceptability for speech issues, and to come back when they were 3 - 3 1/2 if I had a concern.

Tammy

[Mom2Grace]

Didn't read everything but wanted to share our story

DS1 started speech therapy at 18 months.  He was talking, but nothing was understood.  We never got his hearing tested because like you said, he could hear us whisper.  But, to our surprise when we went in for an ENT constultation for adnoids/tonsil removal (which he needed for health reasons) they tested his ears.  He had fluid in his ears which caused him to not hear correctly, which was making what he said come out wrong.   So we could tell him to go pick up toys, he'd go pick up toys, but he may have heard us say "oo ic oy" and that's what he'd repeat.  So, while he could hear what we were saying, he was hearing it incorrectly.  Now at almost 4, he is a very bright boy and talking great.

DS2 started speech therapy at 15 months.  It was more precautionary.  We knew that either he'd just start talking or he wouldn't, but since we loved the therapist and figured it woudln't hurt anything, we were fine with him having services.  At almost 2.5, he has about a dozen words, but amazes everyone with what he knows and can do and how he communicates that knowledge without talking.

I think early intervention is great and I see no negatives that can come out of it.  Just as we make sure that our oldest daughters's needs are met since she is academically advanced, we make sure that our son's needs are met because they have speech delays.  The delays dont mean they aren't gifted ora dvanced, just something we feel needs addressed.