Cycle question- estrogen and LH surge

[MamaRuga]

What is the relationship of estrogen to lh in ovulation?  I've had a delayed cycle (or maybe it will be anovulatory, not sure) because of illness and stress.  Using the fern test I had about three days of positive around the time I would have ovulated.  But the LH strips were negative.  They were starting to get a faint line as they usually do before the surge, but then they went back to completely negative.  Then, after three days positive, the ferning test is back to negative and I now I have had the strong positive LH test for three days.  My temps still haven't gone up, but they are kind of bouncing around a lot (which happens in my anovulatory cycles).  Really they should have gone up yesterday or today based on my past charts and the opk.   

So, I'm wondering...  Can you get an estrogen surge that drops before the LH surge?  And if that happens, can you still ovulate?  Or do the two have to happen together?

[Bugglette]

Your estrogen levels need to reach a certain level for your brain to know that it is time to ovulate.  So, if your estrogen levels drop before reaching that point, ovulation will not occur.

A little more in depth:

Your growing follicles produce estrogen, when one follicle grows larger than the others it produces even more estrogen and effectively stops the other follicles from growing larger.  That dominant follicle will continually produce more estrogen as it matures, the rising estrogen levels will eventually signal your brain that the egg is ready to be released.  LH and FSH are always being produced in small amounts to help support the growing egg.  When your brain gets the signal that the egg is ready, the hypothalamus will secrete large amounts of GnRH, which in turn stimulates the pituitary to produce more LH and FSH (you would get an LH surge here), which stimulates enzymes in the follicle to release the egg.  Estrogen levels fall a little after the LH and FSH surge, but rebound a little because the corpus luteum produces estrogen along with progesterone.

HTH!

ETA:  Could I take a peak at your chart?

[contactmaya]

 NOT THE OP HERE, BUT WANTED TO SAY THANKYOU FOR THIS DETAILED EXPLANATION ON SOMETHING I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT. 

I HAVE A RELATED QUESTION, AND I HOPE ITS OK TO ASK IT HERE-IF ESTROGEN IS REQUIRED TO BUILD UP TO A CERTAIN LEVEL BEFORE LEADING TO AN LH SURGE AND OVULATION,  WHAT COULD SLIGHT SPOTTING BEFORE OVULATION -THAT IS NOT OVULATORY SPOTTING- BE CAUSED BY QUESTION MARK. IT CANT BE ESTROGEN WITHDRAWAL, SINCE ESTROGEN IS BUILDING UP. POLYPS AND FIBROID ALSO HAVE BEEN RULED OUT. CAN EVENING PRIMROSE OIL CAUSE THIS QUESTION MARK

SORRY ABOUT CAPS

[Bugglette]

Originally Posted by contactmaya 

 NOT THE OP HERE, BUT WANTED TO SAY THANKYOU FOR THIS DETAILED EXPLANATION ON SOMETHING I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT. 

I HAVE A RELATED QUESTION, AND I HOPE ITS OK TO ASK IT HERE-IF ESTROGEN IS REQUIRED TO BUILD UP TO A CERTAIN LEVEL BEFORE LEADING TO AN LH SURGE AND OVULATION,  WHAT COULD SLIGHT SPOTTING BEFORE OVULATION -THAT IS NOT OVULATORY SPOTTING- BE CAUSED BY QUESTION MARK. IT CANT BE ESTROGEN WITHDRAWAL, SINCE ESTROGEN IS BUILDING UP. POLYPS AND FIBROID ALSO HAVE BEEN RULED OUT. CAN EVENING PRIMROSE OIL CAUSE THIS QUESTION MARK

SORRY ABOUT CAPS

Are you sure it's not ovulatory spotting?  It is possible to have ovulation pain/bleeding a couple days before to a couple days after actual ovulation takes place.  Do you bleed every cycle around that time, or was it a one time thing?  Maybe vigorous BD?   How much EPO are you taking, and how long have you been taking it?  Any other supplements?  Sorry for all the questions, just trying to paint a picture, lol.

[contactmaya]

IM SO GLAD YOU ARE ASKING, BECAUSE I WOULD LOVE TO GET AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS.

IVE HAD  O SPOTTING  OFTEN ENOUGH IN LIFE FOR IT TO SEEM NORMAL TO ME.  SPORADICALLY OVER THE LAST FEW CYCLES HOWEVER, THE SPOTTING TENDS TO START EARLIER AND LAST LONGER. ITS NOT PREVENTING OVULATION THOUGH.

I DID UP MY DOSE OF KELP FOR INCREASED IODINE THIS MONTH, THAT WAS FOR ABOUT A WEEK PRIOR TO OVULATION.

AS FOR EPO, IVE BEEN TAKING ABOUT 1500MG A DAY IN THE MORNING FOR THE LAST 3-4 MONTHS. THIS CYCLE AND LAST, MY O WAS DELAYED BY SEVERAL DAYS, WHICH I ATTRIBUTE TO THE EPO.

SHRUG-MAYBE ITS WHAT YOU SAY, A LONGER FORM OF O SPOTTING.... IM STILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW THERE WOULD BE LOWER ESTROGEN, LEADING TO SPOTTING,  FOLLOWED BY HIGHER ESTROGEN AND AN LH SURGE.

MAYBE THE ESTROGEN IS GOING UP AN DOWN A BIT, AGAIN, NOT SURE WHY....

[Bugglette]

Do you take one 1500mg pill or multiple, lower dose, pills at once?  Everything I've read, says you should take it in small increments throughout the day.  I take 500mg 3x a day.  Also, as far as I am aware, EPO will not effect cycle length or cause spotting....but that's just based on internet research.  There are so many other things that can delay O, like stress or hormone fluctuations.

Normal spotting occurs when AF is just ending, due to O, and due to implantation.  If it's something that happens often for you, and is not caused by one of those things I mentioned....I would guess that you either have low pre-O progesterone, or that your estrogen levels fluctuate a lot just before O (do you have long cycles?).  If it does not impede O, and there is no unexplained spotting AFTER O, you should have nothing to worry about.  Especially if you've been examined for fibroids (which I believe you mentioned)...I'm assuming you do not have endometriosis and have been checked for uterine cancer, as well...which can both cause unusual spotting.

[contactmaya]

 BUGGLETTE, THATS FUNNY, BECAUSE  I READ THAT YOU SHOULD TAKE THE EPO ALL AT ONCE AND PREFERABLY IN THE MORNING.... I TAKE  3X500MG. MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

IVE ONLY HEARD ANECDOTALLY THAT SOME WOMEN HAVE HAD SOME IRREGULAR SPOTTING WHILST ON EPO, WHICH IS WHY I THOUGHT THAT COULD BE THE CAUSE. ALSO,  MY CYCLE WAS LONG FOR A WHILE WHEN I THINK BREASTFEEDING DELAYED O BUT IT HAS BEEN BACK TO NORMAL FOR FOR MONTHS, WHICH IS WHY THE DELAYED O CAUGHT ME OFF GUARD.

BUT YOU MENTION 'LOW PRE O PROGESTERONE' IVE NEVER HEARD OF THAT, BUT IT MAKES SENSE.  IT COULD VERY EASILY BE BECAUSE I GET  SPOTTING BEFORE MY PERIOD AS WELL-AGAIN, I THINK THIS IS CAUSED BY BREASTFEEDING, BUT MY LUTEAL PHASE IS LONG ENOUGH THAT I DONT TAKE PROGESTERONE.

FUN STUFF EXCLAMATION MARK

OP, I HOPE YOU FIND SOME ANSWERS.