Need help re: friendship - not sure if thise is best place to post??? - Page 2

[Mamas3loves]

I really do not think she thought too hard about because her reponse to my email when she was pg was along the lines of 'I have heard the other side of this argument too'. And the kicker is... her dh is NOT circumcised. Yup. That is correct. He did not want it done. She did. She got her way. She is American, he isn't, he is European (British).

Can't write more at the moment my ds needs to be put to bed.

Thanks for your responses, I really do appreciate them all. You can see this is quite a complex situation so your wise words about what to do re: our friendship are very helpful to me.

BBIAB...

[Marissamom]

Originally Posted by MoonJelly 

"I think you're probably doing her a disservice by assuming it's a decision she made lightly. I have a friend who is opposed to circ, fought with her husband about it for 20 weeks, and eventually their little boy ended up circed at a week or two old. and it was one of the hardest things she's gone through as a mom, but it was circ or lose her marriage, and the kid probably would have still ended up circed."

See to me, this is worse.  And therefore harder to accept because you have 1) she let her son be circ'd, and 2) she couldn't stand up to her husband. 

I am not saying that #2 is not also caused by fear and cultural conditioning but the fact that it is these two things together that makes it even harder for me to get over and ignore for the sake of the friendship. 

I suppose I should add that her husband is Jewish, and it's the one time I've ever seen her make a compromise for him. it really was a point of their relationship ending, plus circ, or just circ. she ultimately made the decision to save her marriage and consent to having it done, but it was probably one of the hardest experiences of her life. There's not standing up to your husband, and there's fighting tooth and nail but deciding in the end that your marriage is more important and that having his parents break up over the issue of his circ is possibly going to do as much damage to the baby as getting circed, especially since the dad would have taken him to the pedi and gotten him circed anyway. 

[tammylsmith]

To be angry is to let others' mistakes punish yourself.
To forgive others is to be good to yourself.
Master ChengYen

I wish circumcision would end as an accepted practice. I, too, am upset that my daughter has protection under the law, but my son has no such thing. Doctors, especially, make me furious because I feel like they are steering people in the wrong direction and should know better. I also don't think there are very many reasons to cut off a good friendship. In the history of humanity's injustices, when has shutting down communication ever solved a problem? I know you feel hurt. I know I would. I would say that something like this would be a large wound in my friendship, but, if this were a close friend I was talking about, I would still strive to mend the wound. It would be hard, and over time, I would need to address my feelings in an honest way with my friend, but hopefully our friendship would be richer because of it, and perhaps I could convince her in the future. Two people can have pretty vehement opinions and still get along. Look at the hot button issue of abortion. People feel very strongly on both sides that this is a life and death issue. Should two women break off a friendship because they have differing views? I would rather try to keep anger out of it as much as possible and keep bringing the truth forward. The truth speaks very loudly for itself, and will ultimately break down that cultural brainwashing, or at least that is what I hope! One more thought for the road...

In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already

ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving

for ourselves.
Budda

 

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by HollyBearsMom 

Age does *not* diminish the importance of the issue but it does diminish the focus of it as part of everyday conversations.

When I was pregnant the topic of circ, breast vs bottle, CIO, etc were all topics that came up regularly. Get a group of non-like minded moms together and WO! could the conversation get heated. The same was true in the first year/year and half of my sons life.  

Flash forward 4,5 and now 9 years later and get a group of moms together and no one is talking about those things. They are talking about homework or sports, how to balance extra curricular activities, etc.

If a parent I didn't know asked me if my now 9 year old son was circ'd I would think she was really rude. And even though all my friends know my (very strong!) POV on the subject it is not something I discuss with a parent I just met. I don't see the purpose and would find it it to be too inflammatory because whats done is done. They are going to have live with their decision. I can not imagine any parent, even one who completely regretted their decision subjecting a young child (like my son) to the kind of reconstructive surgery needed to correct it.

I do agree that there will be many parents who have a very difficult conversations coming in their future. 
 

Thanks.  I don't generally discuss people's genitals with them, even as they get older - its just not my business.

[Mamas3loves]

"I think you're probably doing her a disservice by assuming it's a decision she made lightly. I have a friend who is opposed to circ, fought with her husband about it for 20 weeks, and eventually their little boy ended up circed at a week or two old. and it was one of the hardest things she's gone through as a mom, but it was circ or lose her marriage, and the kid probably would have still ended up circed."

I suppose I should add that her husband is Jewish, and it's the one time I've ever seen her make a compromise for him. it really was a point of their relationship ending, plus circ, or just circ. she ultimately made the decision to save her marriage and consent to having it done, but it was probably one of the hardest experiences of her life. There's not standing up to your husband, and there's fighting tooth and nail but deciding in the end that your marriage is more important and that having his parents break up over the issue of his circ is possibly going to do as much damage to the baby as getting circed, especially since the dad would have taken him to the pedi and gotten him circed anyway.

Could I just clarify this? Your friend's husband (the baby's dad) was ready to separate from your friend (the baby's mom) if she didn't agree to have her son circumcised. Is that correct?

The circ. was so important to the dad that he was prepared to put his marriage on the line?

Surely then what he is saying is that the baby's circumcision is more important than his mom's wishes and he would rather the baby be brought up by a single parent than remain intact. Surely then, the 'blame' for any marriage break up would have been on him, not on your friend? It very much sounds to me that he put his own wish that his son be circ'd before the wishes of the baby's mom AND before his marriage! Tbh, I'm not sure I would want to be married to someone like that but that's a different issue!!!! I think if I knew my dh put more important on the status of my son's genitalia than on my wishes and desires and before our marriage, I would attach more importance on my son's genitalia than on my dh and separate from him! I come first in our relationship, kids come after! Just the way we work as a unit I suppose.

Presumably your friend knew her dh was Jewish when they got married and that if they had a son, circ would be on the agenda? I don't mean this as an attack on your friend, I just don't think the onus was on her to 'save the marriage' when it was him that put their marriage on the line over this issue. It's a shame his marriage wasn't more important to him than his son's genitals...

I think some of the other issues I have problems with is even though there maybe no short term complications, sometimes issues don't become apparent until that boy is older and becomes sexually active. Well, the last person they're going to want to talk to about their long term complications with their wife / partner is with their mom & dad so the I suspect they will never know the impact and harm caused to their child.

I do agree that there will be many parents who have a very difficult conversations coming in their future.

This too. I think any young man who is upset enough about his circ to research into it deeper will become aware that it was mroe than likely that at the time of his circ, his parents had ready access to the internet and could easily have educated themsleves and made an informed decision but chose to remain ignorant. Hpow will they answer that one???

I thought I would try and write her a very brief letter informing her in no uncertain terms that if (and it is a very big if) we are to remain friends, this whole thing needs to be discussed and aired out in the open. I am not prepared to hear her justifications because as fas I am concerned, there are none. I am not ready to hear them anyway because I know I will debunk them in 2 seconds flat because I am clearly much more informed and read up on the matter than she is. I will make the point that I am very strongly anti circ and that she has to take it or leave it. I will not make any apologies for it or make nice about it. Her feelings will not be taken into account when I post comments or 'like' stuff on FB related to anti-circ etc...  

I will then see if I can actually consider remaining friends with her. Even now, I just don't have the stomach for it.

This post is exactly how I feel! I love this, thanks!

I have ended relationships with friends and family members over circumcision. It isn't that they are culturally brainwashed to believe one thing so I end it ... I came from the same culture.
How can I be friends with someone who believes that the baby they spent 9 months making is defective, or has a defect.

How can I associate with someone who (in these cases they had the facts because I gave them to them) would put their baby through sexual molestation, and sexual amputation?

How can I be friends with someone whose ethics and moral compass say that their children are property?

How could I be friends with someone who wouldn't stand up to the world and their spouse to protect their children from permanent harm to their genitals?

And then other times I struggle with the question, how can I be friends with people who don't ask why it is done, who don't stop and ask how it is done, who don't stop and ask what a foreskin is and what does it do?

And I struggle with looking into my mother and father in-laws faces and knowing that they did it to someone I love so much.

There is probably a high road that some of these women are talking about, I haven't gotten there yet. I see too much of the sameness between male circumcision and female circumcision. It repulses and saddens me the same way.

It isn't easy to have ethics while still remaining compassionate to those who are unethical. I still have yet to figure out how to allow these kinds of people access to my life.

I have counted up and when it came to putting your friendship on the line over this issue: 6 wouldn't sever a friendship, 3 would and 1 would distance. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[tammylsmith]

Ahh, this does complicate the issue. I see how that would be a very frustrating response. I still wouldn't actively end the relationship, but if these are her values, you might find that the relationship cools on its own. It surprises me that she would be convinced on so little of an argument when her own dh is proof of how intact is normal! This culture of circumcision is a difficult thing to battle, and that aspect of it frustrates me.. there is no argument for it, it's "just done." That happened with one of my friendships. I didn't just stop talking to her after she gave me that argument, but I found that, as parents, we just had less and less in common over time. You know your friend. Would she ever talk to you more in depth about this?
 

Originally Posted by Mamas3loves 

I really do not think she thought too hard about because her reponse to my email when she was pg was along the lines of 'I have heard the other side of this argument too'. And the kicker is... her dh is NOT circumcised. Yup. That is correct. He did not want it done. She did. She got her way. She is American, he isn't, he is European (British).

Can't write more at the moment my ds needs to be put to bed.

Thanks for your responses, I really do appreciate them all. You can see this is quite a complex situation so your wise words about what to do re: our friendship are very helpful to me.

BBIAB...

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by Mamas3loves 

I thought I would try and write her a very brief letter informing her in no uncertain terms that if (and it is a very big if) we are to remain friends, this whole thing needs to be discussed and aired out in the open. I am not prepared to hear her justifications because as fas I am concerned, there are none. I am not ready to hear them anyway because I know I will debunk them in 2 seconds flat because I am clearly much more informed and read up on the matter than she is.

I'm confused. On the one hand, you say that the only way you can remain friends is if the issue of her circumcising against your advice is discussed and aired out. In other words (it sounds like), you want to hear her justify or explain her decision. At the same time, you insist that you are not prepared to hear her justifications because there are none and you can debunk them. In that case, what will this "airing out" discussion consist of?

While I'm always sad to hear of RIC, I honestly don't think you have a right expect your friend to discuss the state of her baby's penis with you. You made your position known. She chose to circ. I can't imagine that she would consider this any of your business. And I don't think it is, either. At this point, given your feelings, I think you have two choices: keep her as a friend or tell her why you can't.

[Mamas3loves]

Yes, I thought when I typed my words out that it sounded clumsy. I think when I said it needed to be discussed and aired I meant I need to tell her how I feel, how upset I am about her decision. I'm not going to start using inflammatory words or language but simply explain my position. I actually never made my position clear re: about how anti circ I am. I was always very neutral on the subject. I did not advise her to not circ. I simply sent her some informative adn educational links and asked her to look into it further.That was it.

My opinion is that any circumcision on unconsenting minors is a violation of their human rights. Surely if we all took the stance that 'this is none of my business' then there would be no intactvist movement. And FGM wouldn't be outlawed today. So with respect, I disagree with you on this point.

[hakunangovi]

Originally Posted by AnnieNimIty 

I have ended relationships with friends and family members over circumcision. It isn't that they are culturally brainwashed to believe one thing so I end it ... I came from the same culture.
How can I be friends with someone who believes that the baby they spent 9 months making is defective, or has a defect.

How can I associate with someone who (in these cases they had the facts because I gave them to them) would put their baby through sexual molestation, and sexual amputation?

How can I be friends with someone whose ethics and moral compass say that their children are property?

How could I be friends with someone who wouldn't stand up to the world and their spouse to protect their children from permanent harm to their genitals?

And then other times I struggle with the question, how can I be friends with people who don't ask why it is done, who don't stop and ask how it is done, who don't stop and ask what a foreskin is and what does it do?

And I struggle with looking into my mother and father in-laws faces and knowing that they did it to someone I love so much.

There is probably a high road that some of these women are talking about, I haven't gotten there yet. I see too much of the sameness between male circumcision and female circumcision. It repulses and saddens me the same way.

It isn't easy to have ethics while still remaining compassionate to those who are unethical. I still have yet to figure out how to allow these kinds of people access to my life.

So very eloquently put!!