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What do you think of "respecting your elders"? - Page 3

post #41 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post

So, if someone has 30 years experience with something and someone else has 2 years of experience... and they have different words of advice... the advice should be weighed evenly, not giving the older person a little more benefit of the doubt?  The advice of the older person should not be given higher respect than the other?

 

For an example:  a kid of 22 has just come into an extra $5,000 and it's burning a hole in his pocket.  A friend tells him to buy a certain sexy car.  This friend has been a mechanic for 2 years and tells him it's a good buy.  The kid's uncle, who has been a mechanic for 30 years tells him to buy the less sexy car because it's more reliable and a better deal.  The kids ignore the old man's advice (and maybe even have a few choice words for him) because "they know better".  Is there not something wrong with this?

 

This is not an actual scenario that is happening in my life, so it truly is just an example.  But similar things have happened in the past.  Respecting my elders (and I have *good* people in my life) and their advice has not once let me down in life.

 

This really is just a discussion dh and I were having a while back, as he's from the ME and over there... respect for elders is just a given.  But the culture is completely different.  With age, DOES come some special considerations.  I was saying that I don't see that in the US anymore, but think that it was more common for those of us that are now middle-aged to have been raised that way.  All of my nieces and nephews are grown now, with kids of their own.  I started a family late in life, so my siblings are all grandparents, actually with grandchildren that are close to my dd's age.  My observations traverse 4 generations that are currently alive in my family.

 

ETA:  While my grandparents are gone, their siblings are not.  I don't know if it's because it's ingrained in me or not, but I would absolutely give more weight to advice given by my great aunt (who's 90ish) or even my parents (70ish, 80ish) than I would to someone my/dh's age (40's and 50's).  Is it a matter of "respecting elders" or just because I know she gives great advice??

 

As for "Ageism", I think that older people are just written off as "old and senile" even if they are not.  If you want to discuss "ageism", it goes both ways.  As I said, interesting discussion.  Thanks for people's input.  Food for thought.



For your scenario, it really would depend on the details. For example, did the 22 year old ask his uncle for advice, or is the uncle offering an unsolicited opinion. How has the uncle responded to the younger mechanic's advice? I could understand a young person having a few choice words for a relative who felt he had the right to weigh in on a decision they weren't asked to be a part of. It's part of establishing healthy boundaries when you become an adult... unfortunately, some 'elders' need you to be quite blunt with them before they'll back off and let you grow up! On the other hand, if the uncle knew his nephew was looking for a car, came across what he felt was a good deal and received a few choice words simply for passing the information on to the nephew, then the nephew would be very out of line!

 

Part of the issue is, our wise elders whose opinions young people respect, rarely if ever need to say "Respect your elders!" The times when a lot of younger people have heard the phrase is as a defense when they've objected to a very unwise elder offering unsolicited advice and opinions, or asserting things as fact that aren't the case. It's used in the same way as "Because I said so!" or "WhatEVER!" and roughly translates to "I'm not listening to you because your opinion doesn't matter and/or I am 100% right on this issue!" It often seems that the more a person says it, the less they actually deserve it! I believe that others' respect comes quite readily to people who are truly wise. 

 

 

post #42 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl View Post

It is also short sighted to insist that life experience must convey wisdom. This is often not the case.


This is so beautifully put, Chamomile Girl!  I would encourage the folks of this thread to remember that there are very young mamas amongst us here.  I've seen several references to "youngers" in their 20's, or how people in their 20's tend to do this, or tend not to respect that.  I interact with many mamas on these boards who are in their early 20's, or even younger, who I feel deserve as much respect as many of you mamas with many more years of experience, because some of them are wiser -- I have seen so much more eloquence, compassion, and intelligence come from women who have fewer years and less experience as a person, and as a mother, than I.  Experience does not equal wisdom.  And discounting anyone because of their age, be it because they are young, or because they are old, doesn't seem wise to me.

post #43 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Italiamom View Post



.  And discounting anyone because of their age, be it because they are young, or because they are old, doesn't seem wise to me.


Why is admiring someone for their age means discounting someone else? Why appreciating the age means disrespecting the youth? One has nothing to do with the other, imho. 

 

I can't think right now whether I read a post here or if it was on another board, a 6th grader swore at their parent because they were not allowed to attend a birthday party. That's the example of when "respect your elders" should be applied. I doubt that anyone here will insist that being 20 with the kids means you are a worse of a parent than someone in their 40's. I doubt anyone here is suggesting let's allow teachers to disrespect our children. I really don't think that the message is to encourage any adult to treat youth with ridicule, but a child lashing out at their parent because they received "NO" as an answer is not normal in my world, and "respecting your elders" does come to mind. Sometimes children will not be able to understand the reasoning behind the decision of an adult, but they still have to respect it. It's parents raising children (hopefully with love, and giving children voice, and listening and sharing and growing together), it's not the other way around. It's parents providing and protecting, and sometimes making unpopular decisions. Are there awful parents out there in the world? I'm sure there are plenty. If someone starts a thread on that topic, I'll gladly voice my support for the abused and neglected children, but this particular topic is about instilling respect towards age in children, and I see nothing wrong with that.

 

A funny thing happened a couple of years ago. DSD must have been about 16 y.o., and she was being very rude and disrespectful to her father during a particular discussion, saying hurtful mean things, and whatnot. Her dad asked her if when she visited Italy (they have family there) she ever heard her cousins speak that way to their parents, and she said "No". He asked her if she ever heard two of my nephews (Ukrainian) ever speak that way to their parents. She said "No, but they are from a different culture," she replied, "everyone respects their parents over there".  At that point she realized how silly she sounded, and that ended that argument. That's kind of the point I'm trying to drive here, even if without much success. innocent.gif

post #44 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriole View Post




Why is admiring someone for their age means discounting someone else? Why appreciating the age means disrespecting the youth? One has nothing to do with the other, imho. 

 

I can't think right now whether I read a post here or if it was on another board, a 6th grader swore at their parent because they were not allowed to attend a birthday party. That's the example of when "respect your elders" should be applied. I doubt that anyone here will insist that being 20 with the kids means you are a worse of a parent than someone in their 40's. I doubt anyone here is suggesting let's allow teachers to disrespect our children. I really don't think that the message is to encourage any adult to treat youth with ridicule, but a child lashing out at their parent because they received "NO" as an answer is not normal in my world, and "respecting your elders" does come to mind. Sometimes children will not be able to understand the reasoning behind the decision of an adult, but they still have to respect it. It's parents raising children (hopefully with love, and giving children voice, and listening and sharing and growing together), it's not the other way around. It's parents providing and protecting, and sometimes making unpopular decisions. Are there awful parents out there in the world? I'm sure there are plenty. If someone starts a thread on that topic, I'll gladly voice my support for the abused and neglected children, but this particular topic is about instilling respect towards age in children, and I see nothing wrong with that.

 

A funny thing happened a couple of years ago. DSD must have been about 16 y.o., and she was being very rude and disrespectful to her father during a particular discussion, saying hurtful mean things, and whatnot. Her dad asked her if when she visited Italy (they have family there) she ever heard her cousins speak that way to their parents, and she said "No". He asked her if she ever heard two of my nephews (Ukrainian) ever speak that way to their parents. She said "No, but they are from a different culture," she replied, "everyone respects their parents over there".  At that point she realized how silly she sounded, and that ended that argument. That's kind of the point I'm trying to drive here, even if without much success. innocent.gif


Tell me though, if your DSD had been reacting to her dad being verbally, physically abusive, or just generally being disrespectful to her, would she still have been required to respect him?

The point the rest of us are trying to drive home is that someone doesn't automatically deserve respect just because they are older, and adult, in some position of authority over us. If an older man comes up to me and starts calling me names, and saying I disgust him, that I shouldn't even exist in this world, I am not (nor should I be) obligated to respect him. I have every right to call him a donkey butt and tell him to go lay down on the road and discuss it with speeding traffic. If my mom wakes up one day and starts telling me I should smack my kids every morning so they will obey me, I am not obligated to respect her or the opinion, no matter how good her intentions. Just like I have every right to tell her to keep her nose out of my business. (Note: My mom wouldn't ever give that advice).

 

"Respect your elders" rarely comes up in situations where the adult is actually being disrespected, and often comes up in situations where the adult is question is behaving in such a way that any respect they were originally shown was tossed out the window when it became clear they didn't deserve it.

 

post #45 of 57

I respect my elders, and I would like my children to grow up and feel compelled to do so too, hopefully by my example and a life influenced by empathy and not enforcement.  I turn to my most trusted elders for advise, wisdom, experienced condolences or congratulations, amazing stories, tales of life travels, tips on parenting and money and faith and politics.  I turn to my professional elders for nuanced observations that help me be a better paramedic.  I turn to my elder patients to best tell me about themselves, rather than their impatient family members.  I do believe that experience deepens wisdom, and I think it's so sad that as a culture we seem to be ignoring this.  I think many First Nations cultures around the world have a stronger grasp on this, and we would do well to do the same. 

 

 

Thanks for starting the discussion, Velochic ... it's an interesting thread to read. 

post #46 of 57

I would react the exact same way to a kid swearing at their parents for not getting what they want as I would react to a parent swearing at their kid for making a mistake.

 

'respect your elders' is such a silly phrase to me because ALL people REGARDLESS of age should be respected.  Behavior expected from younger people should be expected from the older people in their lives as well.  However, in my personal experience, the kind of people who throw around the phrase 'respect your elders' are also known for 'because I said so' and do not treat their kids the same way they expect to be treated.

 

For instance, I was expected to knock on my mom's bedroom door before going in if it was closed.  Cool beans, makes perfect sense.  However, she did not give me that same respect.  She would just barge right on in.  I spent YEARS telling her how unfair it was that I wasn't given the same level of privacy.  In fact, this last Christmas I finally had to yell at her because she again just barged on in (I was staying at her place for the holidays) without knocking and this time it made life a bit difficult for me because of how early it was where my daughter is concerned.

 

Should I have just said nothing so I could 'respect my elder?'  Should I really have continued to take the same disrespect?  Did I really not deserve that same respect at 10?  I was expected to just deal with however she wanted to treat me because she is the parent and I am the child and it is her house.  Why should I continue to have respect for someone who can't respect me at any age?

 

It goes both ways and I have seriously never heard someone tell a child to respect their elders where they didn't mean to just suck it up and be at the older person's mercy.  It is never said in my experience with the simple intent to teach that respect is a good thing for others.  When people mean to say the latter, they just say you need to be respectful of other people.  Specifying older people has always, again in my experience, only been with the intent to put a younger person in their place.  respect your elders, don't back talk, don't question, do as they say even if they don't do the same, and because I said so, thats why.

post #47 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post




Tell me though, if your DSD had been reacting to her dad being verbally, physically abusive, or just generally being disrespectful to her, would she still have been required to respect him?

 


I guess I didn't try hard enough to explain that I by no means suggest that a child should put up with abuse or disrespect. So I'll repeat - all my posts in this threat relate to a situation where a child is loved, and in no shape or form abused. Your example doesn't fit, because you are providing an example of verbal abuse, so in no way do I demand that children submit to abuse. I am simply saying, that swearing at a parent because you didn't get what you wanted as a child is a sign of disrespect, and this particular type of disrespect was acknowledged as more of a weakness in some cultures than others during the discussion dsd and her dad had on that wonderful day.

 

I think it is a very valid thing to consider. 

post #48 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriole View Post




I guess I didn't try hard enough to explain that I by no means suggest that a child should put up with abuse or disrespect. So I'll repeat - all my posts in this threat relate to a situation where a child is loved, and in no shape or form abused. Your example doesn't fit, because you are providing an example of verbal abuse, so in no way do I demand that children submit to abuse. I am simply saying, that swearing at a parent because you didn't get what you wanted as a child is a sign of disrespect, and this particular type of disrespect was acknowledged as more of a weakness in some cultures than others during the discussion dsd and her dad had on that wonderful day.

 

I think it is a very valid thing to consider. 


Then I must be mixing you up with someone else. Because there has been a lot of talk on here about teaching children to respect those older than them just because these people are old. No other reason, no matter who that person is, just because they are older. That is a very dangerous lesson to teach, and one I don't want my children to learn. No one automatically deserves respect, but when we say "respect your elders" we aren't qualifying it with "if they deserve it." We aren't qualifying it with anything, and for that reason it is a very general statement. Yeah, children would do well to respect their parents, just as parents would do well to respect their children. I am not going to argue that "parents deserve respect" to someone who's parents beat them every day of their life until they moved out because that person's parents don't deserve respect, certainly not from the person they hurt.

 

post #49 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriole View Post




Why is admiring someone for their age means discounting someone else? Why appreciating the age means disrespecting the youth? One has nothing to do with the other, imho. 

 

I can't think right now whether I read a post here or if it was on another board, a 6th grader swore at their parent because they were not allowed to attend a birthday party. That's the example of when "respect your elders" should be applied. I doubt that anyone here will insist that being 20 with the kids means you are a worse of a parent than someone in their 40's. I doubt anyone here is suggesting let's allow teachers to disrespect our children. I really don't think that the message is to encourage any adult to treat youth with ridicule, but a child lashing out at their parent because they received "NO" as an answer is not normal in my world, and "respecting your elders" does come to mind. Sometimes children will not be able to understand the reasoning behind the decision of an adult, but they still have to respect it. It's parents raising children (hopefully with love, and giving children voice, and listening and sharing and growing together), it's not the other way around. It's parents providing and protecting, and sometimes making unpopular decisions. Are there awful parents out there in the world? I'm sure there are plenty. If someone starts a thread on that topic, I'll gladly voice my support for the abused and neglected children, but this particular topic is about instilling respect towards age in children, and I see nothing wrong with that.

 

A funny thing happened a couple of years ago. DSD must have been about 16 y.o., and she was being very rude and disrespectful to her father during a particular discussion, saying hurtful mean things, and whatnot. Her dad asked her if when she visited Italy (they have family there) she ever heard her cousins speak that way to their parents, and she said "No". He asked her if she ever heard two of my nephews (Ukrainian) ever speak that way to their parents. She said "No, but they are from a different culture," she replied, "everyone respects their parents over there".  At that point she realized how silly she sounded, and that ended that argument. That's kind of the point I'm trying to drive here, even if without much success. innocent.gif


Surely this is just a case of being respectful to others though. I don't think it is ok for a child to swear at a parent because the parent said no to them. But, neither would it be ok for the child to swear at their younger sibling. So, IMO anyway, that's not really an age issue.

 

I think everyone deserves a basic level of respect and civility. I guess one could argue that people who are disrespectful to you lose that right but then that drops you down to their level so I'm not sure I agree with that.

 

As far as advice, I agree with the people who said that you listen and then go with what you think is best for your situation. I encounter this a lot as a nurse. In Australia there is a great deal of emphasis placed on "time served" and much less placed on education and quality of experience. Length of time holding a position does not automatically equate to depth of experience and degree of knowledge gained. There is also the issue of maintaining currency and keeping up with the latest research. So "time served" is not always the best indicator of wisdom and/or knowledge IME. 

 

Life experience, depends on the life and the ability of the person who lived it to reflect on their experiences and learn from them.

 

So, in summary, civility to all but don't assume wisdom or knowledge comes with age is my philosophy.

 

post #50 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by katelove View Post




Surely this is just a case of being respectful to others though. I don't think it is ok for a child to swear at a parent because the parent said no to them. But, neither would it be ok for the child to swear at their younger sibling. So, IMO anyway, that's not really an age issue.

 

I really think it starts with respecting your parents and grandparents (again, I speak of non abusive families). And maybe it is because I did not grow up in the US, but the level of disrespect children show to adults in this country is astounding to me. This has nothing to do with abusive or controlling parenting. I guess I can't explain what I see, but it is what it is, and we can only fix it if we admit there is a problem. 

post #51 of 57

We should distinguish between being socially polite, and having respect. Respect is earned, politeness is part of what makes our society work.

 

I think when it comes to respecting your elders, kids (and adults, when dealing with those older than them) should be taught to not talk back, to bite your tongue when necessary, and try to be polite. This is dealing with people not your parents- aunts, grandmas, people in the community. 

 

When dealing with parents it's okay to share your opinion as long as there is not name calling and other bad conversational assaults. As adults we can still respect our parents while still going and doing exactly what we want to do! That's a healthy adult relationship. 

 

With my kids, I do absolutely expect them to treat me with respect, not name call, interrupt, or talk back. If they want to disagree with me and can present their view without being rude I will listen. But in the end the decision is mine if it has to do with safety or consequences they have earned. My job is to guide them first, be their friend second. I think they start to respect me when they see the wisdom in my decisions later that kept them out of trouble, or taught them good manners or study habits that led them to success. 

 

I remember my mom and I clashed a lot-- she was raised old school and would tell me that the Bible said I should obey her, and she was the mother and I was the child and that was the end of the issue. With my kids I tell them my role is to guide them and make decisions for them until they are able to make them as adults, but I also work with them, explain my reasoning, and hopefully we can all agree.

 

As a new nurse grad I did some clincial time with patients who were not easy to work with. They were physcially older but emotionally immature in many cases, some bordered on verbal abuse. I don't judge those who are in pain or not in their right mind because of illness, that is a different story. But with such patients who are immature or not treating me well I just bite my tongue and care for them, and I do gently but firmly draw boundaries if necessary with how they can talk to me. I try to work on their level. Sometimes showing respect by fluffing the pillow, arranging the tray the way they demand me to, they start to respect me and treat me better and the rest of the day they start to listen to me when I explain about their illness or treatment. Somehow just treating them with politeness and feigned respect relaxes them, makes them feel more in control of their environment, and we all do better. I am glad for my early lessons to respect my elders because it taught me tact that helps me with my nursing role and also other professional roles-- where inside I feel like telling them a piece of my mind but I don't because it's not worth it and it makes things go better. At the same time I do speak out when it's appropriate, outside of that situation, for example if went to a protest or wrote a letter to my congressperson, or told the guy who was just rude to me in the parking lot that he cannot talk to me that way.

 

I think that many children today are not taught the right time to show tact and bite their tongue, and the right time to be assertive and speak their minds. 

post #52 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAmma View Post

I think that many children today are not taught the right time to show tact and bite their tongue, and the right time to be assertive and speak their minds. 



That's because they are taught to listen and obey without questions, no matter what is being asked of them, because the adult always knows best and children who try to assert themselves are selfish, disrespectful, hooligans destined for a life of crime and misery.

 

Though, I do think that even kids have a right to assert themselves to adults that aren't parents, even if the adult in question takes that as "back talk" despite every attempt at being polite by the child.

 

And most of us, no matter what the age, have (or will) encountered a situation where even politeness is now dead and buried and the only way to have someone think of you as a human worthy of consideration is to be rude. Just because the other person doesn't seem to speak any other language.

post #53 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriole View Post

I really think it starts with respecting your parents and grandparents (again, I speak of non abusive families). And maybe it is because I did not grow up in the US, but the level of disrespect children show to adults in this country is astounding to me. This has nothing to do with abusive or controlling parenting. I guess I can't explain what I see, but it is what it is, and we can only fix it if we admit there is a problem.
 



No, you're right.  A lot of people ARE really disrespectful to adults... but they are disrespectful of ALL people.  Older people do NOT deserve more respect purely because they are older, all people deserve respect.  The lack of respect you are seeing is caused by parents who either failed to teach their kids respect or parents who tried with too heavy of a hand resulting in a lot of pushing back by the kids.  I went to school with many of these people.  I WAS taught respect and although in some ways my mom completely failed, she did a much better job than many parents I have known.  I am respectful of 'my elders' but I'm respectful of all people.  I wasn't taught to respect my elders as the only rule, I was simply taught to be polite.

 

You are getting caught up in the idea that children need to respect their parents but what the rest of us are saying is children need to learn how to be respectful of all people.  I won't teach my child to respect her elders because I'm already going to be teaching her to be respectful of all people.  Elders will automatically be included.  I don't deserve any more respect than her best friend does.  If she isn't respectful of her closest friend, then I haven't done a job worthy of respect in the first place.

post #54 of 57

 

Quote:
I think my favorite example of an elder whom I would have great respect for is Dumbledore.  He IS extremely wise and knowledgeable and experienced however he doesn't use this against anyone to gloat or force them to bend to his will simply because he is older.  He still has great respect for younger people, even if they might happen to be raging and breaking his things, and recognizes the potential they have despite being young.  He is also able to recognize when he is wrong and even, when someone younger than him is right.  I think the way Dumbledore treats people is the way we should all treat people.  Patience, kindness, modesty, humility.  Older people may hit the mark more often, but they shouldn't completely rule everything for that  (sorry, I've been rereading the whole HP series the past couple of weeks.)

He also totally played Harry like a pawn (and to a lesser extent Ron and Hermione as well); conditioned him to accept a death mission, withheld information from him, and spent one whole book being emotionally absent when Harry needed him, when a simple "I'm going to keep away from you this year for your own safety" would have saved Harry a lot of heartbreak. I just reread Deathly Hallows last week, and I'd forgotten how much of a jerk he was! Sure, Harry accepted his reasoning and forgave him, but I wouldn't use him as an example of showing respect for young people...

 

WRT respecting elders - I wonder if Western culture has altered that, perhaps irrevocably? In traditional cultures, particularly those with oral rather than written traditions, old people were a very valuable fount of knowledge, with a link to more or less unchanging medical, social and religious wisdom that had worked (more or less) for those cultures for generations. Nowadays... not so much. Take pregnancy and childbirth, for instance - most of us here wouldn't dream of taking our grandparents' or even parents' advice too seriously, because we know it's NOT the result of centuries of accumulated wisdom, but a rather aberrant form of child-rearing and pregnancy/birth management that doctors, psychologists etc came up with in the middle of the twentieth century and have since largely abandoned. Plus, we have so many other sources for our facts now - we have no need to accept "Start giving your baby orange juice at six weeks" as gospel truth, and compelling reasons not to. I dunno; maybe that changes things. Social attitudes are changing so quickly now, along with technologies and politics and science and religion and so on, that maybe it's easier to start assuming older people don't have anything relevant or wise to say about any subject; and that's a shame.

 

Personally... we were brought up to be particularly polite to our elders, but I'm not sure we were expected to respect them more than anyone else. Not that our parents wanted us to be less polite to younger people either... there was just an expected degree of formality we used with older people. Sometimes it coincided with respect on our part; sometimes it didn't. We were in a small church with mostly old parishioners, some of whom were a bit curmudgeonly about the pastor's brood of kids, so I think we realised pretty early on that it was in everyone's best interests not to ruffle feathers. :p And then I worked at a cinema with mostly old patrons. Between those two things I definitely snap into "polite" mode when I'm around older people; but honestly it's probably more of a habit than a reflection of true respect. Still, it doesn't do any harm, now, does it? :p Some older people seem to particularly appreciate courtesy and formality, so why not?

 

ETA: At this point in history, I think it's also worth bearing in mind that a lot of old people have lived through tough times - wars, the Depression and so on. Having had a pretty darn cushy life, I do have a certain respect for that - call it "survivor awe", if you will! And at the least, that fact can be used to charitably explain certain oddities of behavior.

post #55 of 57

Here are the various definitions of Respect according to the Oxford dictionary:

Noun

1 [mass noun] a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements

2 due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others

Verb

1 admire (someone or something) deeply, as a result of their abilities, qualities, or achievements

2 have due regard for (someone's feelings, wishes, or rights)

 

In regards to the above...yes I believe it is important to teach my child to respect his elders (as well as others). 

post #56 of 57

Ok, so for me it boils down to domain knowledge.  My (adopted as an adult) dad was a CPA for 25 years.  He retired from that about 6 years ago.  My childhood best friend graduated from college 6 years ago, has been working in the field the whole time, and just passed the CPA exam.  I'm going to take her advice over his.  She knows more about current rules and guidelines.  It isn't about respect. 

 

 

And I'm in the "I'll respect you if you earn my respect but I'll be civil no matter what" camp.

post #57 of 57

I guess I have mixed feelings about this.

I am thinking of my gramma's generation here (she is 85). On one hand  there is a lot to learn from the elderly. But then I also think the "greatest generation" is responsible for a lot of what went wrong in the twentieth century. Everything from better living through chemistry to the mass use of formula, pesticides, and pharmeceuticals. Seriously, I don't find a lot to respect there just because it seems as though so many that age are so set in their ways and don't understand our desire to fix what went wrong. And i think most older people in the government are very resistant to any positive change. I don't respect that either. I think it is time to pass the torch and let the youngsters give it a shot. (thinking environmental issues specifically)

 

Were our culture not so sick, I may be able to muster more respect for those who made it that way. I am actually a bit bitter about the world they have left us. They messed up big time in my humble opinion. (obviously speaking in generalities here)

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