Moral Struggle With Dairy

[MayasMama88]

In our quest to live a truly healthy and earth-concious lifestyle, we've made many changes to our diets, including eating mostly organic (and hopefully soon LOCAL and organic.. come on farmer's markets!!). We've started consuming a lot more raw fruits and veggies, and cutting down on sugars, excess carbohydrates, and refined/processed foods. We don't drink cow's milk, just soy and almond milk, but we do eat cheese... and here is where my struggle lies.

I love cheese. LOVE cheese. However, lately I've been thinking alot about cows' milk, and whether or not we should really be consuming it as humans. When I think of my baby, and the special bond that we share through nursing, I think "How would I feel if some farmer milked me for years to make cheese (or any other dairy products) without my consent?" I think of cows nursing their calfs, and then once their calfs have no need for their milk anymore, they continue to get milked everyday by humans so that we can eat cheese and yogurt and drink their milk! Why would humans drink cows' (or goats' or sheeps') milk? Isn't cows' milk for cows? And human milk for humans?

My husband says that cows are too dumb to have an issue with being milked. I hate it when people say that, as though cows are just mindless animals that were only put on this earth so we could use them for food. Or is that true? He also reminds me that other cultures depend on cows for food and nourishment, because they have little else. I don't know if I agree 100% with that.

I'm so confused and up-in-the-air about this! Does anyone else have this issue? Am I being really silly?

[Alyantavid]

Well cows are different than humans.  But if you've ever seen a calf being weaned from it's mama, there's definitely something there.  I'd guess the average dairy cow probably doesn't have an issue with being milked, but she also doesn't know any different.

The dairy industry is so huge because people have been taught that milk (and all other dairy products) are necessary.  They aren't at all.  This is a choice you have to make for your family.  I don't drink milk personally, but I do eat cheese.  The milk we do buy is from a local dairy that processes it themselves so it's all kept local and while they aren't certified organic, they follow all the guidelines.  They're going to start making cheese as well.

We stick with only local ice cream and cheese and stay away from other dairy products.  My youngest is allergic to dairy and he's healthy as can be even though he doesn't eat it. 

[mamapigeon]

There are a lot of dairies that treat cows cruelly, and there are places that are kinder to their animals. Do you have options available for locally made cheeses where you could visit the dairy?

From what I've seen, at milking time most cows will be anxiously waiting to be milked. I don't think it hurts the cows, or is unethical if they are treated well (allowed to graze and roam free).

While I personally don't think cows are "mindless animals just put on earth for food", I also don't see anything unnatural about eating them or consuming dairy products. Cattle have been domesticated for thousands of years and are indeed a staple in a lot of people's diets.

[MayasMama88]

You both make good points. I get so emotionally caught up in things sometimes! I still won't eat meat, and I won't drink animal milk, but it may be awhile before I can give up cheese. I think I would definitely prefer to start looking into local (organic, if possible) dairy farms that will allow me to check out their practices. Every time we pick up a package of Sargento, or whatever, I can't help but wonder if the cows who provided their milk for that cheese were treated well...

[Ramzubo]

Have you checked out CT Farm Fresh? http://www.ctfarmfreshstore.com/  It brings local food to CT residents. You can go to the cheese section and they will show exactly which farm the cheese comes from. Most of the farms have websites and usually you can get a tour of the farms. Or you can google dairy farms in Ct and find websites to local farms. We did this for our beef. We drove down to a farm to check it out to see that the cows really were running free and healthy liked they claimed.

[MayasMama88]

Ramzubo, does CT Farm Fresh sell ice cream and eggs? We just bought some local eggs that was CT Farm something.. that might have been it! I will have to check out where our eggs came from and hop on over to their farm to take a look. Can you just show up to a farm, or do you have to call ahead and let them know you're coming? I'd rather just show up, so they can't "make sure" they have everything looking top notch even if it usually isn't, KWIM? ;)

[Ramzubo]

I'm not sure about ice cream, but they have eggs. As for being open it's up to the individual farm. The one we went to is open pretty much everyday and has a dairy shop on the premises so they expect people to stop by whenever to pick up the goods.

[habitat]

I'm in the same position as you, MayasMama. While I don't eat meat or drink milk (it disgusts me), I do eat cheese and absolutely adore it. I also eat eggs. The eggs thing I could do without guilt, if I raised my own chickens, since chickens lay eggs without being forced. Though I know that "free-range" as a product label is pretty much the biggest load of crap in the world - there's no regulation on that at all and almost no chickens are actually cage-free. But... the cheese kills me. For me, I know it's against my principals. I'm definitely sensitive to the reality behind the issue. I know that the milk is for the calf, and not for me. I know it's not a reciprocal relationship. I know that the cow is often put in the position of feeling engorged and uncomfortable until the human comes around to milk them. I would even go so far as to say that it strikes me as anti-feminist, as crazy as that may sound to others.  No matter what the farming practices are, it's still very hard for me, and it's certainly a struggle. 

Maybe this will change for me as I travel through life, but I think I've decided that, before TTC, I'll be 100% vegan. That's just a personal choice for my personal comfort level. I don't want to be milked for $$ and I try my best to "do unto others", if you know what I mean. 

[MayasMama88]

Habitat, this is exactly what I feel. I just got into a discussion about it again this evening with my husband and my mom, and they both say that they don't feel guilty about it because they believe God put certain animals on the earth to sustain humans. "That's why those animals (such as cows) aren't very intelligent." I just can't help but feel that it still isn't right to milk them. I think I've decided to try giving up cheese and animal-milk yogurt. If I really want cheese, I can always get rice or soy cheese. There is soy yogurt, and maybe I can make some out of almond milk. Think that would work?

[Imagining]

I struggle with this too.  I ate a lot of dairy before having my DS, and never thought anything of it because that was how we grew up.  But surprise, surprise, DS couldn't tolerate it.  Once I had it cut out of my diet for a while and really looked into it/thought about it, I developed a huge aversion to milk, ice cream.  Now that he's 4 1/2, we've added some dairy back in, mostly just cheese.  But even that I struggle with sometimes.  

We went to a local organic free-range dairy farm last fall, which should be cow utopia.  A calf had been born just the night before and it was kept gated away from it's mom and they were bottle feeding it.  I couldn't help but ask why, and the farmer explained that if the mom started nursing him, then the mom would start holding back her letdown for the machine to save her milk for the calf.  So they can't let her start nursing her own newborn baby...  And the baby is not allowed to snuggle up to it's mom...  As a mother (especially one who was very pregnant at the time), it was heart-breaking to see.  I don't know if that's a standard way to handle the calving, but I think about it often and make a conscious effort to keep dairy to a minimum largely because of that experience.  And from a general feeling that we were not meant to consume milk made for other animals' babies.  Maybe people/societies established that as a norm at some point, but that doesn't mean nature ever intended it to be that way.  

If only cheese were not so very, very appealing...

[sh118]

I agree with an earlier poster that cows are different than people.  I don't believe that they have the same emotional response to "nursing" that human mamas do.  Not cows...but the sheep farm here is in lambing season right now, and I watch the lambs with their moms.  They butt her udder and suck a couple times, she gets up and walks away while they try to follow her and nurse.

Also, we are hand milking a cow right now that's calf was stillborn.  She seems totally fine with it...comes right up to the stanchion and puts her head in.  She gets special feed, her hair brushed, her udder washed and massaged, then milked and a balm applied  to the udder.  I'm sure it's not like this at a commercial dairy, but cleanliness and health of the cows are essential to their profitability it would seem. 

[Imagining]

Originally Posted by sh118 

I agree with an earlier poster that cows are different than people.  I don't believe that they have the same emotional response to "nursing" that human mamas do.  Not cows...but the sheep farm here is in lambing season right now, and I watch the lambs with their moms.  They butt her udder and suck a couple times, she gets up and walks away while they try to follow her and nurse.

Also, we are hand milking a cow right now that's calf was stillborn.  She seems totally fine with it...comes right up to the stanchion and puts her head in.  She gets special feed, her hair brushed, her udder washed and massaged, then milked and a balm applied  to the udder.  I'm sure it's not like this at a commercial dairy, but cleanliness and health of the cows are essential to their profitability it would seem. 

This is really interesting.  I'm glad you shared it.  
 

[MayasMama88]

Agh! It's such a hard decision! You've all made such interesting points. I thought I had made my decision with Imagining's previous post about her experience with the local organic dairy farm, but then sh118's post also brought up a completely different side. I don't know. I know that many animal species do not share the same depth of emotion as humans do, but I just can't get past the mother/baby nursing thing! Even if cows don't really mind being milked, I can't help but think that cows produce milk for their calfs (calves?), and once their babies are done nursing, their milk should dry up just like human mothers' milk does. Why is it so different simply because it's an animal? I'm still so up in the air about this! I remember a time when I drank 3 - 5 glasses of cow's milk a day, and consumed large amounts of cheese. Now, it's a whole different story. Evolution of the Self is a crazy journey, eh?

[luv my 2 sweeties]

There is a story, probably apocryphal, but it survives because it expresses an important truth: 

When young William Penn was drawn to the new Quaker religion, he faced a dilemma:  Quaker leader, George Fox and his followers had denounced all wars and violence, but Penn, being a nobleman by birth, had been trained in swordsmanship and was expected to wear a sword as part of his attire.  He felt conflicted.  When he had the opportunity to speak to George Fox about this, Fox told Penn,  "Wear thy sword as long as thee is able."  Fox felt confident that as God continued to lead William Penn, he would eventually become so convicted by the Spirit that taking off the sword would no longer feel like a difficult decision. 

Perhaps you could take a similar approach to the issue of cheese.  Continue to allow yourself to be open to conviction (by God if you believe, or by your conscience alone, or whatever) and see where you are led.  I believe that sometimes we are lead to take steps in our own lives that others may not be required to take.  You can gather many opinions, but I don't think that other people's opinions should allowed to over-ride your conscience.  If you are not OK with it, than it's not OK for *you*.  If you remain open and honest with yourself, you may come to a point  -- either eating or not eating cheese -- where it no longer feels like a difficult decision.

We can really get tangled up in pros and cons if we extrapolate our own convictions to apply to everyone.  If *no one* ate any dairy products or meat, then cows would become extinct or nearly so.  There is no niche in nature for them and they are unlikely to be kept as "pets" on the same scale as horses.  Would that be good for cows?  Personally, I think not, but I imagine someone could make an argument the other way, depending on how miserable they think cows are as domesticated farm animals.  But if you take the stance that you only need to do what *you* are led to do, then you don't have to worry as much about what is the absolute RIGHT decision for everyone and everything for all time.  You can renounce dairy products for yourself without insisting that everyone else (your family members, for starters) should do the same.  That can take a bit of a load off your shoulders.  Blessings to you as you seek to be faithful to what you feel is right in this matter.

[MayasMama88]

Luv, thank you. While I certainly appreciate (and asked for) everyone elses' opinions, I don't think you could have said what you said more perfectly.

[Oakshire]

I have been lurking on the forums for a bit and finally decided to make my first post......

I love dairy products!  Cannot imagine life with out them!  I also love cows :)  I did not like the way the larger farms are run.  So I have my own cows and I milk them and make my own butter, yogurt, ice cream and cheese! 

You should look into getting into a cow share program?  Or somewhere that you can find raw milk.  A small farm that you can see how the animals are treated. 

I will also add a few things about cows......  I have Jersey cows they are a very small and caring breed.  As someone posted above, we take our calves away at birth as well.  But I have found if thy are taken away right away and the cow is milked and the calf is bottle fed.  The calf will always look to people as its providers making for a much easier to manage cow.  As for the mother, all of our cows seem to be fine with it.   They do not call for the baby, I do not think that cows have the bond like we do.  They like to see the calf and I make sure they do, after a few days of bottel feeding the calf I can put it back with it's mother and the mother gets to mother her calf, but the calf does not know where the milk comes from,  The biggest reason that I take the calves away at birth, it that Jersey cows are bred to produce so much milk, unlike a beef breed.  Th calves are not very good at self limiting themselves, and I have had problems with them gorging and getting sick from having so much milk avaliable.  My cow produces about 4 gallons of milk per day and a calf only requires about a gallon.  My cows are not forced to produce excessive amounts of milk they are free fed as much as they like the eat, food is always avaliable to them.  I give them a bucket of grain while they are being milked.  It is a happy experience for them,  They hear me in the barn getting things ready and they come running and are waiting at the gate to come in.  I do not restrain them they stand quietly and it is great time to relax and have some quiet me time, under a cow :)

Making cheese is so easy!  Mozzarella is my favorite and is so easy to make!  I can have a batch ready to eat in about 2 hours after milking my cow.  Many people that have problems with dairy are ok to drink and eat raw milk products.

[MayasMama88]

Oakshire, thank you for posting your feelings/story about dairy in this thread! I definitely want to hear both sides before making a decision, although ultimately my decision is going to be based simply on my personal feelings. I think the best thing I can do for myself is go to an organic dairy farm and see for myself how things are done, and interact with the cows. I know that humans, out of all living creatures, have the greatest depth of emotion, and so our bonds with eachother are stronger than other mammals... but I still don't know (personally) how strong cows' bonds are with their babies, so for me all I can think about is how I would feel if my baby was taken away from me as soon as she was born, you know? It sounds like you treat your cows very well, and I am so happy to hear that! I'm learning a lot here, so I'm glad I started this thread, lol!

[hildare]

hm... let me preface by saying that my dh and i used to be vegan... but we aren't at all anymore.. so we struggled with all these issues and then some. 

my own conclusion about this is that of course it's much much better to get milk from a milkshare or from farmer's markets where you can be assured that things are aligned with your ethics.  that's not a possibility for everyone, though, and a processed product, such as soymilk in the long run is not truly any more healthy nor is it lighter on the earth or industrial farming practices.  soy crops are really pretty badly sprayed and industrially farmed (and there are some companies that are exceptions) and labor practices are dreadful- migrant worker abuse, etc. 

pasturized milk, too, has many of the healthy properties of the milk removed, so one might as well consume an alternative (though the alternatives aren't 'better' depending on how you look at it..) 

i will also offer another observation that no one mentioned, and that's the treatment of the steers or bull calves that come from the industrial milk production.  even organic milk, when industrially farmed, has this as a consequence.  in order to maintain milk, the steers or bulls are sent to feedlots and processed as meat, in that industrial system.. so if you're a veg*n because you're opposed to that practice, realize that practice is part of the whole picture.  another complication to think about is the degredation of forests being cleared to make grazing pasture and the chemicals that are used to maintain the pasture/feed.  if your milk's organic, then that last part isn't a concern, but if you're concerned about the environment, the felling of trees can be something to think about. 

we are planning to milk our goats, but we're not at that point yet.  our family had to shuffle priorities a bit, like many do, and we currently buy local organic milk when we can, otherwise purchase the least horrible commercial organic milk.  living so rurally, it's hard to get anything but the store brand organic milk or hor*zon without a special trip to the next town 30 minutes away.  we do feel like the issues with soymilk or whatever substitute vs. the industrial organic milk pretty much cancel each other out, leaving no good options for us but to work towards the diy option.  there are other options out there, like purchasing a soymilk/almond milk maker and purchasing a good non industrial bean to use in there, but we're not wealthy enough for that to be a choice for us.

[Oakshire]

Yes bull calves are a byproduct of the dairy industry.  Many are not given a chance, I know of a few farms that when the calf is born and it is a bull calf they are often shot.  It is a horrible thought but from a financial point of view it is hard to raise up that animal and sell it off and come out ahead.  Right now there are a few or our local farms that I get calls from every time they have a bull calf born and I go and pick them up raise them till they are weaned and then I sell them to a local bible school that raises all of there own meat.  Part of the schooling is animal husbandry, so these calves are well looked after until their last day comes.  I also raise a calf up for our selves to butcher each year as well.  I eat meat and always will so long as I can see for my own eye the way the animal is raised through it entire life.   I refuse to eat a animal that has been factory farmed! 

[MayasMama88]

See, Hildare, I honestly never thought of bull calves and what happens to them, or the felling of trees for pasture land! The choices I've made have largely been based on personal intuitive feeling, and not so much on hard facts in regards to the subject. Many times I have simply thought "I don't know exactly why I do/don't ______, I just feel it's what's best for me." Of course, things such as cloth diapering, breastfeeding, eating fruits and veggies over meat, and using a credit union over a bank are things I've looked into and weighed the pros and cons for. The milk thing is new to me, because I've always consumed it in some form or another.

I do drink Soymilk now instead of cow's milk - I have done this for years - and I do make sure that the soybeans aren't genetically modified, but in truth I don't really know what sort of practices the specific brand I purchase take part in. This is why I am planning on growing my own organic soybeans, and I just found a Soymilk Maker at a local thrift store for $7.00 that I'm super excited to start using! I do believe that the best choice when it comes to what we consume is to consume what we grow/raise ourselves. Obviously, as Hildare said, for some people that isn't an option at the moment, but I think it's something that is beneficial to begin working towards, like my family - and so many other families - are doing.