How to help dd deal with Queen Bee?

[Dandelionkid]

DD is 7 and "Katie" is 8, they play together often. Katie is extremely manipulative towards dd. We have been more aware of it in the past couple months and dd has also started talking about it each evening when we have quiet time together.

Katie often makes comments "you do this, or I won't play with you", makes sure dd knows she is not her best friend but if dd asks she will bestow the honor on her, downplays every little excited thing dd wants to share with her- often acting with disdain ("oh- that little thing..."), refused dd's swim b-day invite (dd wanted her there) saying " I don't swim with anyone but my real friends" but of course, she came and then made a spontaneous clique with another (normally sweet) girl to exclude dd from their games. The list goes on and on and it is in every interaction in subtle ways. My Dh was hopping mad yesterday because they were playing in our backyard and dd went out the gate and couldn't get back in without Katies help and when DH came outside Katie was just listening to dd ask for help and kicking snow around. Subtle but the control must always rest with her.

I tell DD to be honest with her (she didn't want to because she didn't want to hurt her feelings!) and I try to explain the complicated "why" behind the behavior etc. I honestly don't know what to say. We have tried to stay out of the real-time interactions and "coach" dd during venting sessions. One good thing she is really learning a lot about how to not treat other kids.

She still wants to play with her.

Any ideas?

Edited by Dandelionkid - 3/12/11 at 9:22pm

[ElliesMomma]

i would really step up the play dates with OTHER kids -- not Katie. sounds like they play together since they are neighbors. and your DD likes to play with her, which is fine. but if you see your DD getting verbally pushed around, it's not so nice. i would not so much limit the play dates with Katie, but rather start aggressively scheduling play dates one-on-one with other kids, so that there's not so much time left over for time with Katie.

Edited by ElliesMomma - 5/28/11 at 11:10pm

[pigpokey]

At that age -- even older, I would totally intervene.  But my friends and I seem to discipline any child we happen to come across. 

I would intervene as in:  Katie, I don't allow that kind of talk in my house.  If it happens again you can't come over. -- or -- Girls, since you cannot play nicely the play is over.  DD, come inside.

Did your DH not send her home immediately at the gate / snow kicking incident?

[chattyprincess]

We actually have two similar girls in our neighborhood. Intrestingly enough the one has horrible problems at school with other children being angry with her and her "forcing" other kids to say/do things and the mother refuses to see that her child is the ring leader...oy vey. The other child is much much more subtle, almost to the point that you don't really notice it until you pay really close attention. they are both in the 7/8 year old range and dd is 4.5. Its awful and I do not encourage dd to play with these children, which is really hard since they are the two familes that are always out and about same as us. We have started finding other kids around to play with because at this age dd is just to young to be able to deal with/handle this kind of behavior in other kids. We do alot of role playing etc but she just doesn't understand the undertone of the older girls. (and she is a very smart articulate child for her age!) These kids are manipulitive and will be for a long while so if your dd is being hurt by this behavior I would simply for the time being remove her from the situation so that she doesn't become a "wannabe" and find other children that she can play with. You use the term queen bee, have you read the book "queen bees and wannabes?" it really is an amazing resource.

If she still wants to play I think all play dates should be supervised and purposeful. Like a beading play date where each girl makes a necklace or bracelet, or painting or something ya know? so that it has a purpose which helps cut off the down time that encourages that kind of thing.

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by chattyprincess 

We actually have two similar girls in our neighborhood. Intrestingly enough the one has horrible problems at school with other children being angry with her and her "forcing" other kids to say/do things and the mother refuses to see that her child is the ring leader...oy vey. The other child is much much more subtle, almost to the point that you don't really notice it until you pay really close attention. they are both in the 7/8 year old range and dd is 4.5. Its awful and I do not encourage dd to play with these children, which is really hard since they are the two familes that are always out and about same as us. We have started finding other kids around to play with because at this age dd is just to young to be able to deal with/handle this kind of behavior in other kids. We do alot of role playing etc but she just doesn't understand the undertone of the older girls. (and she is a very smart articulate child for her age!) These kids are manipulitive and will be for a long while so if your dd is being hurt by this behavior I would simply for the time being remove her from the situation so that she doesn't become a "wannabe" and find other children that she can play with. You use the term queen bee, have you read the book "queen bees and wannabes?" it really is an amazing resource.

If she still wants to play I think all play dates should be supervised and purposeful. Like a beading play date where each girl makes a necklace or bracelet, or painting or something ya know? so that it has a purpose which helps cut off the down time that encourages that kind of thing.

Thanks for your reply. So would you go so far as to ban playdates at the neighbors house- if so we would probably need to let the mom know why as we are casual friends.

[prancie]

Originally Posted by pigpokey 

At that age -- even older, I would totally intervene.  But my friends and I seem to discipline any child we happen to come across. 

I would intervene as in:  Katie, I don't allow that kind of talk in my house.  If it happens again you can't come over. -- or -- Girls, since you cannot play nicely the play is over.  DD, come inside.

Did your DH not send her home immediately at the gate / snow kicking incident?

I agree with this.  You and your DH should police this girl's behavior when she is in your care.  If she doesn't care for it, she can go home.  

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by pigpokey 
d to 

At that age -- even older, I would totally intervene.  But my friends and I seem to discipline any child we happen to come across. 

I would intervene as in:  Katie, I don't allow that kind of talk in my house.  If it happens again you can't come over. -- or -- Girls, since you cannot play nicely the play is over.  DD, come inside.

Did your DH not send her home immediately at the gate / snow kicking incident?

So what kind of talk should I not allow? It is so subtle and most of it is happening outside of our home- just being told of the extent of it lately by dd. The most I have heard at our house is the subtle disdain of DD's new "show and tell" items (mostly with her b-day party- like favors and things) where she just acts completely disinterested and unimpressed. Also the main one is "if you don't come play at my house (where she gets to direct the games) then I'm not playing with you again" said as she runs off and slams the door. 

DH did not send her home after the gate incident. She wasn't kicking snow at anyone, just pretending not to hear DD ask for help into the yard. IMO kinda hard to discipline for this as she just pretended she didn't hear.

Edited by Dandelionkid - 3/12/11 at 9:11pm

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by pigpokey 

At that age -- even older, I would totally intervene.  But my friends and I seem to discipline any child we happen to come across. 

I would intervene as in:  Katie, I don't allow that kind of talk in my house.  If it happens again you can't come over. -- or -- Girls, since you cannot play nicely the play is over.  DD, come inside.

Did your DH not send her home immediately at the gate / snow kicking incident?

I agree with intervening and sending her home immediately when it is clear she isn't playing nicely.  My dd and her friend seem to go back and forth with being this way sometimes and it almost always stops when I ask a how would you feel if I did this to you question or if dd did this to you.  I use a lot of details from the situation in my question to make it clear that I know what was going on and to give the child I am talking to a clear view of what they were doing.  I don't do this in a punishing way nor do I scold first, I go right into the question then remind the child to remember to treat her friends the way she wants to be treated.  In the case of the subtle disdain for an item I would say "Katie, how would you feel if you were excited about showing me your new doll and I sighed and said uh huh" putting the same emotion into the uh huh as Katie did into her reaction to your dd. 

I have also had a small talk about an issue over a treat after swimming at the Y when there have been ongoing issues and that also helps because they are happy after having so much fun and in a receptive mood.  I address issues with friends in the same way I address them with my dd in that respect and try to teach instead of scold or punish. 

Teaching your dd what good friends are through discussion, videos, or books (or a combination of all of these things) and telling her some phrases to say like "a friend wouldn't say that" or "you aren't being a good friend when you manipulate me."  Talk to her about coming out to get you if she is feeling sad during a playdate.  It is important that you listen to both sides of the story though and that you keep an ear on what both kids are doing because you are trying to empower your dd to stand up for herself without letting her go the other way.  I have made the mistake of always thinking my dd would never dream of doing things other girls and boys her age do and I have been seriously wrong.  It is very easy for a child to misinterpret being bossy as standing up for themselves.  My dd is 8 and she still misinterprets many bullying situations because she misinterpreted me and her teachers when she was at the stage where we talked about bullying.  It is a fine line and until you are sure you have walked it you should keep a close ear out for what each child is saying and seems to be doing (this way they have freedom from your direct presence but you are still aware and ready to step in as needed).

It may help if you and your dh try to develop a small relationship with Katie yourself if you haven't already done that.  I always ask my dd's friends about themselves, how school is, what their teacher is like, how their brother is treating them (her friends aren't completely happy with having siblings), what they did the other day, etc...  I listen actively and really try to make it clear that I care about what they have to say.  I feel like this really helps dd's friends view me as someone who cares about them and it makes redirection much easier than it would be if the only time we talked was when I was kicking them out for not following the house rules (something that only seems to have to happen at the beginning of a playdate relationship).

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by One_Girl 

I agree with intervening and sending her home immediately when it is clear she isn't playing nicely.  My dd and her friend seem to go back and forth with being this way sometimes and it almost always stops when I ask a how would you feel if I did this to you question or if dd did this to you.  I use a lot of details from the situation in my question to make it clear that I know what was going on and to give the child I am talking to a clear view of what they were doing.  I don't do this in a punishing way nor do I scold first, I go right into the question then remind the child to remember to treat her friends the way she wants to be treated.  In the case of the subtle disdain for an item I would say "Katie, how would you feel if you were excited about showing me your new doll and I sighed and said uh huh" putting the same emotion into the uh huh as Katie did into her reaction to your dd. 

I have also had a small talk about an issue over a treat after swimming at the Y when there have been ongoing issues and that also helps because they are happy after having so much fun and in a receptive mood.  I address issues with friends in the same way I address them with my dd in that respect and try to teach instead of scold or punish. 

Teaching your dd what good friends are through discussion, videos, or books (or a combination of all of these things) and telling her some phrases to say like "a friend wouldn't say that" or "you aren't being a good friend when you manipulate me."  Talk to her about coming out to get you if she is feeling sad during a playdate.  It is important that you listen to both sides of the story though and that you keep an ear on what both kids are doing because you are trying to empower your dd to stand up for herself without letting her go the other way.  I have made the mistake of always thinking my dd would never dream of doing things other girls and boys her age do and I have been seriously wrong.  It is very easy for a child to misinterpret being bossy as standing up for themselves.  My dd is 8 and she still misinterprets many bullying situations because she misinterpreted me and her teachers when she was at the stage where we talked about bullying.  It is a fine line and until you are sure you have walked it you should keep a close ear out for what each child is saying and seems to be doing (this way they have freedom from your direct presence but you are still aware and ready to step in as needed).

It may help if you and your dh try to develop a small relationship with Katie yourself if you haven't already done that.  I always ask my dd's friends about themselves, how school is, what their teacher is like, how their brother is treating them (her friends aren't completely happy with having siblings), what they did the other day, etc...  I listen actively and really try to make it clear that I care about what they have to say.  I feel like this really helps dd's friends view me as someone who cares about them and it makes redirection much easier than it would be if the only time we talked was when I was kicking them out for not following the house rules (something that only seems to have to happen at the beginning of a playdate relationship).

Thanks for the really helpful suggestions. I think I have been too "hands-off" because I didn't want to take dd's power away but your right, I would not sit by while dd acted like this so I shouldn't allow it from another child.

[Shaki]

When I was in grade school my next door neighbor treated me like this and it was horrible. She gave me the silent treatment for years which deeply wounded me. If asked I would have said that I wanted to play with her/be friends even though she treated me horribly. She acted like I had done something to deserve this treatment--I hadn't. I wish my parents would have intervened more. Not to control this girl or make her treat me nice, but to let me know that she wasn't worth being friends with. I wish they would have helped me distance myself from her and spend time with more positive people. Rather than being victimized by the situation.

From that perspective I would say that while you may not be able to change "Katie's" behavior you can help your daughter stick up for herself. Your daughter does not have to make nice or win back Katies approval. In fact no matter how hard she tries she won't be able to because Katie likes the relationship as it is, she gets powerful positive feelings out of dis-empowering your DD, she will continue to do it no matter what your DD does.  If Katie is treating her badly, then Katie is not a true friend and your DD does not have to play with her.

I agree with encouraging other friendships. I also think you can talk with your DD about true friends--a person who is mean to you or makes you feel bad is not a true friend and not worth spending time with. Also in this case it is ok for your DD to get mad and even to yell at this child. She can stick up for herself. She can say "You are not acting like a true friend! I don't want to play with you anymore! Go Home!" or "No I don't wan to play at your house. it's not fun being bossed around by you!" or whatever. I remember the times I lost it and said something like that to a queen bee they fell all over themselves to make it right--of course they'd be back to the same behavior next time, so ultimately not hanging out with mean girls is the real solution. Anyway I'll bet Katie would be pretty shocked if your DD were to take the offensive. The mean girl thing will escalate as your DD gets older. She might as well begin now to resist the mean girl paradigm and build truly positive relationships.

I mean I've seen this crap in pre-school! And oh it makes me so mad! There were some girls doing the mean girl thing to my sweet 3 year old niece! My niece does not hang out with these girls anymore--her mom stopped taking her on playdates with them.

I think the same rules apply to romantic relationships as do to friend relationships and I think it's true at any age: If you can't treat me with the respect I deserve and with the respect with which I treat you, then you can't have a relationship with me.

Best wishes to you and your DD these situations are so hard.

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by Shaki 

When I was in grade school my next door neighbor treated me like this and it was horrible. She gave me the silent treatment for years which deeply wounded me. If asked I would have said that I wanted to play with her/be friends even though she treated me horribly. She acted like I had done something to deserve this treatment--I hadn't. I wish my parents would have intervened more. Not to control this girl or make her treat me nice, but to let me know that she wasn't worth being friends with. I wish they would have helped me distance myself from her and spend time with more positive people. Rather than being victimized by the situation.

From that perspective I would say that while you may not be able to change "Katie's" behavior you can help your daughter stick up for herself. Your daughter does not have to make nice or win back Katies approval. In fact no matter how hard she tries she won't be able to because Katie likes the relationship as it is, she gets powerful positive feelings out of dis-empowering your DD, she will continue to do it no matter what your DD does.  If Katie is treating her badly, then Katie is not a true friend and your DD does not have to play with her.

I agree with encouraging other friendships. I also think you can talk with your DD about true friends--a person who is mean to you or makes you feel bad is not a true friend and not worth spending time with. Also in this case it is ok for your DD to get mad and even to yell at this child. She can stick up for herself. She can say "You are not acting like a true friend! I don't want to play with you anymore! Go Home!" or "No I don't wan to play at your house. it's not fun being bossed around by you!" or whatever. I remember the times I lost it and said something like that to a queen bee they fell all over themselves to make it right--of course they'd be back to the same behavior next time, so ultimately not hanging out with mean girls is the real solution. Anyway I'll bet Katie would be pretty shocked if your DD were to take the offensive. The mean girl thing will escalate as your DD gets older. She might as well begin now to resist the mean girl paradigm and build truly positive relationships.

I mean I've seen this crap in pre-school! And oh it makes me so mad! There were some girls doing the mean girl thing to my sweet 3 year old niece! My niece does not hang out with these girls anymore--her mom stopped taking her on playdates with them.

I think the same rules apply to romantic relationships as do to friend relationships and I think it's true at any age: If you can't treat me with the respect I deserve and with the respect with which I treat you, then you can't have a relationship with me.

Best wishes to you and your DD these situations are so hard.

Thanks so much. I have realized that my role has been much to passive. I have talked to DD and tried to help her reach the conclusion of good friend/bad friend but when the girl does these things in my house I am going to start calling her on it. It's really good to have your perspective on it and I like the comparison to a romantic relationship.

[beanma]

I agree with what One-Girl said up thread. If you are with them listen in and gently shape their play. Like in the situation with the gate and kicking snow. If you DH heard, he should say something to Katie, "Katie, can't you hear dd? She wants to come in." If he doesn't get a satisfactory response, but a snotty "No, sorry, I didn't hear," I would continue with something like, "Oh, really? I heard her plain as day. When you ignore someone it can really hurt their feelings and that's not okay with me. If you really can't hear her, I think I should have a talk with your parents. You may need to go to the doctor to have your hearing checked."

OP, do you have more than one child? I just treat it like a sibling situation. I don't allow my girls to be mean to each other and I'm not going to allow their friends to be mean to them or allow them to be mean to their friends if I'm around. The "if I'm around" is the tricky part because when they're 7 and 8 they don't always want you around.

I'm not really a fan of the "Queen Bees" book as I think it over-dramatizes the whole situation. I do recommend "Girls Will Be Girls: Raising Confident Courageous Daughters" by JoAnn Deak. It goes into this sort of behavior, too, but in a less pathological, dramatic way than "Queen Bees".

So, this is totally normal behavior on the part of both girls, but that doesn't make it right. I would empower my child to understand that her "friend" isn't acting like a good friend right now and it's not her fault. Some good books for her are "Friends: Making Them and Keeping Them" and "A Smart Girl's Guide to Friendship Troubles" although the second one is targeted more toward the middle school ages.

hth

[JudiAU]

When I was in the early grade school my mom paid one of the local SAHM from our church to watch me for a few hours after school let out. It lasted a few years and then I became a latch key kid at my fervent request. The older child was in my class and exactly the same. The other kids were fine. I am sure she didn't want me around (she dreamed of popularity, that she would achieve) and tortured me in this exact same way. Relentless. I still have really bitter feelings about her and that time. Even when the behavior was more extreme (digging her nails in my skin) there was near any punishment or ANY KIND or any real reaction by the mother.

I wouldn't dismiss the behavior. I would monitor play more closely and intervene early.

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by beanma 

I agree with what One-Girl said up thread. If you are with them listen in and gently shape their play. Like in the situation with the gate and kicking snow. If you DH heard, he should say something to Katie, "Katie, can't you hear dd? She wants to come in." If he doesn't get a satisfactory response, but a snotty "No, sorry, I didn't hear," I would continue with something like, "Oh, really? I heard her plain as day. When you ignore someone it can really hurt their feelings and that's not okay with me. If you really can't hear her, I think I should have a talk with your parents. You may need to go to the doctor to have your hearing checked."

OP, do you have more than one child? I just treat it like a sibling situation. I don't allow my girls to be mean to each other and I'm not going to allow their friends to be mean to them or allow them to be mean to their friends if I'm around. The "if I'm around" is the tricky part because when they're 7 and 8 they don't always want you around.

I'm not really a fan of the "Queen Bees" book as I think it over-dramatizes the whole situation. I do recommend "Girls Will Be Girls: Raising Confident Courageous Daughters" by JoAnn Deak. It goes into this sort of behavior, too, but in a less pathological, dramatic way than "Queen Bees".

So, this is totally normal behavior on the part of both girls, but that doesn't make it right. I would empower my child to understand that her "friend" isn't acting like a good friend right now and it's not her fault. Some good books for her are "Friends: Making Them and Keeping Them" and "A Smart Girl's Guide to Friendship Troubles" although the second one is targeted more toward the middle school ages.

hth

Thanks for the book selection. That first one sounds like just what I was looking for. I have realized since this thread that I need to treat the girl the same way as my other kids but I have to say it does not come naturally. Especially because of the history I don't want to get on her case about everything. She started laughing at my youngest dd (2 years) when she had a bike accident the other day and I told her that " we don't laugh at people who are hurt". Maybe should have said something like " it feels bad to be laughed at ..." but anyway she started to laugh harder in a fake way and I was left wondering what to do about that, especially as dd wasn't actually upset after all.

DD7 is handling her really well lately. She came over the other day while dd was watching a movie. 4x she came to the door with various threats "I'm warning you- if you don't play..." or "I'm not playing with you again if..."  and each time dd said very politely "you can come watch if you want to but I am doing this right now". So that is good. I probably should have stopped her coming over the second time though.

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by JudiAU 

When I was in the early grade school my mom paid one of the local SAHM from our church to watch me for a few hours after school let out. It lasted a few years and then I became a latch key kid at my fervent request. The older child was in my class and exactly the same. The other kids were fine. I am sure she didn't want me around (she dreamed of popularity, that she would achieve) and tortured me in this exact same way. Relentless. I still have really bitter feelings about her and that time. Even when the behavior was more extreme (digging her nails in my skin) there was near any punishment or ANY KIND or any real reaction by the mother.

I wouldn't dismiss the behavior. I would monitor play more closely and intervene early.

That's awful! I am definitely trying to watch them more closely lately.
 

[Shaki]

Originally Posted by Dandelionkid 
 She started laughing at my youngest dd (2 years) when she had a bike accident the other day and I told her that " we don't laugh at people who are hurt". Maybe should have said something like " it feels bad to be laughed at ..." but anyway she started to laugh harder in a fake way and I was left wondering what to do about that, especially as dd wasn't actually upset after all.

DD7 is handling her really well lately. She came over the other day while dd was watching a movie. 4x she came to the door with various threats "I'm warning you- if you don't play..." or "I'm not playing with you again if..."  and each time dd said very politely "you can come watch if you want to but I am doing this right now". So that is good. I probably should have stopped her coming over the second time though.

Admittedly I have strong feelings about this based on my childhood story which I posted up thread. But both of these are examples that make me say you should really consider limiting time with this child--it sounds like she's hurting on the inside which is why she behaves like this and while I can empathize with that, i think it's more important to block the hurtful behavior directed at your DCs by just lessening the amount of time you allow her to be around your kids. It's ok to set limits with other children. You can do it firmly without being mean or hurtful.  So I agree with you, you should have stopped the intrusions after the second time. It sounds like your DD handled it really well, though :) !!!! Good for her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And for you as well, sounds like some positive progress is being made!

I don't know how much you could have done different with the bike incident. I probably would have said something similar to what you did say and then if the fake laughing happened I would have collected my DD and removed myself and my child. `In fact I have done that in similar situations, you may not be able to stop someone who is being mean but you don't have to stay in the same space with them...unless you are responsible for taking care of them and then you obviously can't just walk away. Which makes me curious... Where are her parents when stuff like this is happening?

[Dandelionkid]

Thanks for the Kudos Shaki! I feel like I am much more aware of how to deal with this situation now thanks to you all.

[lookatreestar]

that is so hard, i remember my little sister in preschool met her first "friend" like this... for some reason these kind of girls would just stick to her and her being so sweet would just take it and take it. i would always tell her to dump them!! i have a friend who still would try to do this to me if it weren't for the fact that i set her straight in middle school. "oh i'm not going to sit by you at lunch if you don't shave your legs." me: "okay, have a good lunch, ttyl " "oh no, i was just joking" suuuuuuuuuure  if there is anything i can't stand its a manipulator/drama queen.

[NiteNicole]

I am probably the odd girl out here, but I don't want my daughter having friendships like that.  I wouldn't let them play together.  I'd want my daughter to take away the idea that if someone treats you badly, it's not up to you to change them or negotiate some complex set of rules you don't understand, tell them to get lost and find another friend. 

[mattemma04]

I would encourage other friendships. That girl might outgrow her behavior,but it can be so draining trying to watch everything someone says/does. Easier to talk to the mom,but that rarely ever resolves the issue. I would be busy and avoid the child as much as possible. No more playdate and certainly no party invites.Who needs a friend who will ruin the party???

I would teach dd not to chase after someone who treats her poorly. She deserves better and even if she *wants* to play with that other girl you can refuse.