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do you vaccinate? - Page 6

post #101 of 345

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/back-to-basics/how-are-vaccines-evaluated-for-safety/ here is some safety evaluation info.

 

http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html and what is in each vaccine

post #102 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

So I was thinking yesterday since "vaccines are for protection in case you get something/are exposed to something, that may or may not even be deadly" how many of you also put yourselves and your LOs in flame resistant PJ's, make sure the mattresses are flame resistant, all the furniture (couches ect) and rugs?

 

Tons of chemicals going into your body, some said to cause cancer and have other effects...but it's for the greater good right? Just in case there is a fire- you may or may not be protected by said chemicals. But I am sure there is a ton of science behind these chemicals saving lives and helping people to not catch on fire...


yeahthat.gif

 

We don't vax, except the [completely not needed] HepB vax at birth.  I have spent countless hours researching this topic and am very comfortable with the decision.   

 

As far as science - there is no scientific proof that vaccines are effective.  None.  Doctors know close to zero about vaccines other that that they're needed.  Our previous pedi acted all surprised when questioned about certain ingredients.  Really?  I would have thought she had learned that at school.  Most reactions seem to be from everything else but the vaccines.  No one really pays attention to whether it potentially could have something to do with vaxes.  No long term studies exist.  A few weeks time frame doesn't make me comfortable.  No studies exist about multiple vaccines given at times.  Yeah, they're very safe.  Right.  Cigarettes were said safe too back in the days.  Even recommended by doctors.  eyesroll.gif

 

post #103 of 345



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post




Neither do i...all the furniture we have is pretty new, so it's all under current fire retardant code where appropriate.  I sleep nekkid ;)  I don't understand what that has to do with vaccines at all...?

 



Imagine all possible chemicals going into your kids' bodies.  From different sources.  Flame retardant mattresses included. 

post #104 of 345
Quote:

Originally Posted by boomer78 View Post

 

No studies exist about multiple vaccines given at times.  Yeah, they're very safe.  Right.  Cigarettes were said safe too back in the days.  Even recommended by doctors.  eyesroll.gif


Well, one has the 1940s/50s Camel "T-Zone" campaign (e.g., here and here). The number "113,597 doctors" who purportedly were surveyed as to brand preference is oddly similar, in terms of having both no apparent documentation and great specificity, to the 1930s Lucky Strike campaign that had "20,679 physicians" (however "checked and certified" by Lybrand, Ross Bros. & Montgomery; here and here). The thing that I never seem to be able to find to accompany this claim is an example of an actual doctor actually recommending tobacco, as opposed to drawings of doctors or film of actors carrying stethoscopes.


Edited by Otto - 3/14/11 at 11:22pm
post #105 of 345


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post

 I have friends who choose not to vaccinate and in a way it works great for both of us, because she sees my kids are fine after vaccines, i see hers survived whooping cough just fine. 

 


 

Interesting point. Only problem is you are both only looking at short term effects. The kids survived it with no noticeable adverse effects. Great for both of you. But are they really AS healthy afterwards as they were before? What about their future health? No long term studies have ever been done for any vaccine. How can you be sure they were not affected adversely in a way that won't show up until 5, 10 or 20 years down the road long enough so that no connnection will ever be made. They stop looking for bad effects in a matter of weeks or at best a few months. And where are the studies comparing health of vaccinated vs unvaccinated?  We have the control group here already as there are thousands of people now choosing not to vaccinate, they can't use the excuse that it would be unethical to withhold vaccines. THe control group is already there! Let's see the studies comparing childrens health, perhaps we can't go 40 or 60 years into the future but we can do 5, 10, 15 maybe even 20! I would like to see things like incidence of diabetes, alzheimers, multiple sclerosis, cancer, and many other chronic or degenerative diseases in addition to allergies, autism and eczema etc.

http://www.ageofautism.com/files/denmark_vacc_vs_unvacc_results_survey.pdf

To the OP, I began selective and delayed. My son had DTaP on schedule which for U.S. is 2,4,6mo. He also had one Hib.  He is almost 3 1/2 now and has not had any since 7 months old.  I can't say I trust the medical community anymore after witnessing the whole swine flu hoax and attempt at mass hysteria last year. and I can't shake the memory of what happened after his Hib shot (his behavior/personality changed and he regressed in skills for one month afterward including stop babbling)  I know several people in real life who no longer vaccinate their youngest children because of a reaction or condition in their older children. While everyone in my "extended" family has vaccinated their 8 kids according to the US schedule at the time (ages 8-20) I can't say they are all healthy. Two cases of autism, at least 2 with asthma, 1 adhd, several eczema, 1 schizophrenia, at least 1 with allergies. Almost every one has health problems that I'm aware of. Did their vaccines play a part?  I dunno. Maybe, maybe not. I know that my generation did not have these problems. Kids were healthy it was the adults who had the problems (usually old people) The only health problems I remember were one or two overweight kids in my class and once everyone talked about a child with diabetes thats how rare it was (relative of a neighbor), never even heard of most of these problems until I was an adult... I know that no other country has as many vaccines on the schedule as the U.S does. Here are a few links for comparison:

http://www.euvac.net/graphics/euvac/vaccination/vaccination.html
http://idsc.nih.go.jp/vaccine/dschedule/ImmEN-05rev.pdf


Many people would like to see those studies comparing the health of the vaccinated (fully according to CDC) vs unvaccinated children, both as children and adults. Only then can we have a good picture as to what we really are achieving here.


After a lot of research I've come to the conclusion that in my sons case there may be one or two vaccines worth considering. Thats it! The CDC schedule is insane. Vaccinating all newborns for Hepatitis B? EVERYONE needs the flu shot now? Give me a break.


 

post #106 of 345


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newmamalizzy View Post




Yes, this.  Everything changes when you live in a world where there is a very real threat of your child contracting one of these diseases.  We in the U.S. (and Canada) don't live in a world like that.  I believe that's a good thing, and that compulsory vaccination is the reason.

 

I am going to point out that I too grew up in a Developing Country (albeit not in an overcrowded shack). I travel to said country with unvaccinated children. I simply take into consideration that I want access to quality medical care in the event of an accident or complications from any disease (My privilege, I can choose). I am not convinced that vaccines are the superior preventative medicine for my family.

 

Also, vaccines are not compulsory in North America or Europe. They are recommended, with the vast majority of parents accepting the recommendation.
 

 

post #107 of 345

I have been seeing a lot studies concerning serotype replacement and the increase of non-vaccine strain invasive disease following introduction of the pneumococcal conjugate vaccine. Often, the recommendation is to develop more vaccines which cover more vaccine strains (and now we have the PCV13). I recall a former MDC member warning of exactly this situation a few years ago.

To me, this is just one example of how vaccines can  have unintended and sometimes dangerous consequences, and shows the necessity of  longer-term studies before vaccines are put on the schedule. It also begs the question of how much is too much? Even if some vaccines are relatively safe and effective, is it possible or even desirable to try and wipe out every disease with a vaccine?

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/297/16/1784.full

http://www.meningitis.org/assets/x/52332

http://www.cdc.gov/eid/content/16/9/1428.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no3/lipsitch.htm


Edited by Plaid Leopard - 3/15/11 at 7:10am
post #108 of 345

Quote:

Originally Posted by newmum35 View Post
Interesting point. Only problem is you are both only looking at short term effects. The kids survived it with no noticeable adverse effects. Great for both of you. But are they really AS healthy afterwards as they were before? What about their future health? No long term studies have ever been done for any vaccine. How can you be sure they were not affected adversely in a way that won't show up until 5, 10 or 20 years down the road long enough so that no connnection will ever be made. They stop looking for bad effects in a matter of weeks or at best a few months. And where are the studies comparing health of vaccinated vs unvaccinated?  We have the control group here already as there are thousands of people now choosing not to vaccinate, they can't use the excuse that it would be unethical to withhold vaccines. THe control group is already there! Let's see the studies comparing childrens health, perhaps we can't go 40 or 60 years into the future but we can do 5, 10, 15 maybe even 20! I would like to see things like incidence of diabetes, alzheimers, multiple sclerosis, cancer, and many other chronic or degenerative diseases in addition to allergies, autism and eczema etc.

 

 

Yes, to some extent we're only looking short term.  Short term (that day/week) my kids had a red leg/arm.  Slightly longer term her kids lost 5% and 7% of their body weight and were weak and ill for several months.  Longer term (3-5 years only) they all seem much of a muchness.  

 

Neither of us can be sure they weren't adversely affected, long-term, by the vaccine or the illness, or really compare before/after, especially because children develop at different rates anyway, so being able to talk really well after pertussis has passed might just be because 6 months has passed since the early symptoms of that illness, and learning to walk shortly after the MMR is very likely because it was given at 13months.  

 

I too would love to see the long-term studies, and who knows, the results of them might be enough to make me make a different choice regarding vaccination.  But for NOW, the information i have TODAY made me think vaccinations were the best decision for my kids.  To be honest i don't really believe that there will be NO effects from vaccination which are additional to the intended effect (immunity, best case), because i don't think the body works like that.  I am sure there will be some trade offs, for us right now the trade-off is that the unknown effects (unknown possibly because they are not glaring, which means perhaps the more adverse effects are rare, or that the mechanism by which they are caused is complicated and relies on other factors) are less concerning to us than the illness the vaccine aims to prevent.  That is a balancing act that IS going to look different in every family.

 

There is autism in my family.  I have the diaries of my great grand-uncle.  He was clearly Aspie.  He was considered "a bit odd".  He was a scientist when he grew up and where he was living (Russia) scientists were considered quite normal if they were "odd".  There was no social expectation to diagnose him against.  But it's so glaring in the diaries it's hilarious.  He had a brother who was profoundly autistic and i suspect another Aspie sister (of 11 kids 5 made it to adulthood, 2 died within a month of birth, 3 older kids died during an influenza epidemic, 1 toddler died of smallpox).  They called the brother a flapping type idiot and there is incredible clarity in places, one comments was "he regarded me as he always does, as if i were nothing more than a table or a cartwheel".  None of these people were vaccinated.

 

Now, of course i KNOW all of that is anecdotal, and i'm certainly not suggesting anyone vaccinate their kids based on any of it!  But if i can look back in my own family and on that one "branch" of the family tree, stretching back from my Aspie dad, identify 6 definite cases of autism in the last 3 generations that it is really hard for me to think vaccines have a major part in it.  Of course autism existed before vaccination, and perhaps vaccines have increased the frequency of occurrence, but for me personally, from a family with a clear and strong genetic predisposition, it's hard to take it into much account.  If i had an autistic kid, i'd be blaming genetics before i looked to anything else to blame.

 

And of course there are families out there with NO history of autism, and for them it might be a major concern that they avoid it, and that they therefore avoid anything which might increase the risk of it.  No one wants hardship for their kids.

post #109 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaid Leopard View Post

I have been seeing a lot studies concerning serotype replacement and the increase of non-vaccine strain invasive disease following introduction of the pneumococcal conjugate vaccine. Often, the recommendation is to develop more vaccines which cover more vaccines strains (and now we have the PCV13). I recall a former MDC member who warning of exactly this situation a few years ago.

To me, this is just one example of how vaccines can  have unintended and sometimes dangerous consequences, and shows the necessity of  longer-term vaccine studies before vaccines are put on the schedule. It also begs the question of how much is too much? Even if some vaccines are relatively safe and effective, is it possible or even desirable to try and wipe out every disease with a vaccine?

This is a big concern I have as well. We are messing with nature, we have no idea how vaxing will affect long-term course of disease (take the issue of chickenpox vax immunity not lasting into adulthood, for example)... Everything we do -- even some of the best choices we as a country have made (i.e. clean drinking water which was a big contributing factor to the polio epidemic since kids were no longer gaining immunity from contaminated water) has known and unknown effects and it's a careful balancing act... I don't see how anything can be 'balanced' if we don't even KNOW what the potential consequences are...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post

Now, of course i KNOW all of that is anecdotal, and i'm certainly not suggesting anyone vaccinate their kids based on any of it!  But if i can look back in my own family and on that one "branch" of the family tree, stretching back from my Aspie dad, identify 6 definite cases of autism in the last 3 generations that it is really hard for me to think vaccines have a major part in it.  Of course autism existed before vaccination, and perhaps vaccines have increased the frequency of occurrence, but for me personally, from a family with a clear and strong genetic predisposition, it's hard to take it into much account.  If i had an autistic kid, i'd be blaming genetics before i looked to anything else to blame.

 

And of course there are families out there with NO history of autism, and for them it might be a major concern that they avoid it, and that they therefore avoid anything which might increase the risk of it.  No one wants hardship for their kids.

Veering off-topic a little, but it has been established that wild rubella can cause autism... so I wonder, how far a stretch is it that a vax against rubella (which contains live strains of the virus) could cause or trigger autism in someone otherwise predisposed (genetically etc.)? Just something I've been thinking about...
post #110 of 345

That's what I was going to say, people pre-disposed to autism and the like and even auto-immune disorders should avoid vax b/c it can "trigger" it.

post #111 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by freestylemama View Post

Do those of you who do not vaccinate travel internationally? 



 

I haven't travelled internationally with my unvaccinated kids yet.  But I have spent many years of my adult life living internationally and would take my kids to the places I used to travel in and live in (Mexico, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and other countries in the area).   There are so many more concerns I would have travelling internationally with my kids than VAD's.  I am not convinced that if my kids get chickenpox, pertussis or what have you they will die or be seriously damaged. There is a risk.  Of that I am sure, but I have weighed it against what I believe about vaccines and the immune system and have decided I will take the risk of the ilness.  I'm also not convinced that if they are vaccinated they will be safe from the VAD's.  I actually really hate the argument that "oh non-vaxxers must feel safe in Canada because the chance of catching something is rare".  If I was so concerned I would vaccinate.  Now if you re asking would I take my kids to slums in a country where polio is still a concern, (or not for that matter)....well my answer is no.  But I have no reason/desire to do that.  And not because of the polio in and of itself.  But because that sounds like an unsafe place to be at all.  Would you take your vaxxed kids there? 

 

I just want to add also that polio is something I am not certain about.  So I suppose that I do feel an element of luxury that in my reality I don't have to worry about my unvaccinated kids being a real risk for polio.  I'm honestly not sure where I stand on polio and the polio vaccination.  My stand on vaccinations isn't "no!" and that is the end of that.  I do consider each one individually and if I'm not sure about something and want to know more about it I'm not going to just get my kids vaxxed in the meantime while I figure it out.   


Edited by Magali - 3/15/11 at 7:50am
post #112 of 345

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newmum35 View Post
Interesting point. Only problem is you are both only looking at short term effects. The kids survived it with no noticeable adverse effects. Great for both of you. But are they really AS healthy afterwards as they were before? What about their future health? No long term studies have ever been done for any vaccine. How can you be sure they were not affected adversely in a way that won't show up until 5, 10 or 20 years down the road long enough so that no connnection will ever be made. They stop looking for bad effects in a matter of weeks or at best a few months. And where are the studies comparing health of vaccinated vs unvaccinated?  We have the control group here already as there are thousands of people now choosing not to vaccinate, they can't use the excuse that it would be unethical to withhold vaccines. THe control group is already there! Let's see the studies comparing childrens health, perhaps we can't go 40 or 60 years into the future but we can do 5, 10, 15 maybe even 20! I would like to see things like incidence of diabetes, alzheimers, multiple sclerosis, cancer, and many other chronic or degenerative diseases in addition to allergies, autism and eczema etc.

 

Bolding mine. I agree, but this is also true of VPDs, not just vaccines. For example, we know babies exposed to flu virus in utero have a higher incidence of schizophrenia. We know certain strains of HPV can cause cervical cancer. Could pertussis cause permanent respiratory damage in some kids? Could Rotavirus cause harmful changes in gut florain some kids? Could the necessary treatments for these VPDs cause lasting problems in some kids? Of course. 

 

 

Quote:
As far as science - there is no scientific proof that vaccines are effective.  None.  

 

Boomer, I have trouble understanding this particular POV. There are efficacy studies for each vax that is marketed, plus post-marketing studies. How did you come to this understanding? 

post #113 of 345

My DD had rotovirus 3x before she was 6 m/o and was fully vaxed at that point...just saying.

post #114 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

My DD had rotovirus 3x before she was 6 m/o and was fully vaxed at that point...just saying.



rotavirus was one of the few that made me nervous, and pertussis but we still didn't vax.

I can't imagine a LO with rotavirus 3 times in such a short period! how stressful...

 

Oh someone was talking about longterm effects? My DH had pertussis that developed into full blown whooping cough as a young kid (like 7 years old) he is 25 now and we haven't seen any lasting effects, his lungs are great and he is healthy. Totally anecdotal but wanted to mention it.

post #115 of 345

It was hell trust me! Not to mention her losing weight b/c of it and then them trying to force me to FF to get her weight up. Yeah Drs know so much...

post #116 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama Metis View Post

 

 

 

Bolding mine. I agree, but this is also true of VPDs, not just vaccines. For example, we know babies exposed to flu virus in utero have a higher incidence of schizophrenia. We know certain strains of HPV can cause cervical cancer. Could pertussis cause permanent respiratory damage in some kids? Could Rotavirus cause harmful changes in gut florain some kids? Could the necessary treatments for these VPDs cause lasting problems in some kids? Of course. 

 


The thing is - we know more about the long term consequences of diseases than we do of vaccines.

 

That is the scary thing about vaccines.

 

Some people are significantly concerned about VAD and the possible short and long term effects that they vaccinate;  Some people are not convinced that all VAD are evil or likely and their uncertainty over the short and long term of vaccines outweigh the diseases.

 

 

 

post #117 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

It was hell trust me! Not to mention her losing weight b/c of it and then them trying to force me to FF to get her weight up. Yeah Drs know so much...



ah yes, FF will solve all the problems...I think that is the opposite of what I would do if my DD had rotavirus. Fill her tummy up with mamas milk which will help her more than just putting fat on her body...

DD hasn't ever had a stomach bug so I feel like we have dodged a bullet thus far. No ear infections either actually, or anything except 2 colds...I will always be curious if that is part of the lack of vaccines she has had...Another debate for another thread though. :)

post #118 of 345

Pertussis scares me in infants, but I am not at all convinced the vaccine is overly effective.

 

Tetanus scares me due to its severity, but it is rare.  The tetanus vaccine does not concern me much.  

post #119 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magali View Post

So I suppose that I do feel an element of luxury that in my reality I don't have to worry about my unvaccinated kids being a real risk for polio.


I wanted to expand on this since a pp brought it up as well (in the context of why we *should* vax)... I do think there is an element of privilege in choosing not to vax. I don't think that's a bad thing. There's also an element of privilege in choosing to put well-fitting shoes on DS, and letting him drink sanitized water, and living in a solid home, and bringing him to the ER if he needs it, and every other decision I make in his life. The truth is, we make our decisions in the context in which we live -- which only makes sense. I don't see the point in giving DS a polio vax, for ex, simply because people in other countries don't have that choice. I suppose theoretically you could argue that me vaxing DS makes it more likely that someone in a third-world country can vax their kid (because some of the vaxes we use now are specifically used in the US because other countries will not touch our vaxes if we don't use them ourselves) but the reality is that whether or not I vax my individual child has no direct effect on whether someone in an impoverished country will be able to vax their kid...

ETA: I'm not necessarily saying people in underdeveloped nations should vax, either (and I'm not saying they shouldn't...)
Edited by crunchy_mommy - 3/15/11 at 5:13pm
post #120 of 345

Our first was vaxed on schedule till he was 3.5.  He had all kinds of problems and what I think were reactions to the vaxes but the doctors said were just coincidental, and at the time I fully belived in his doctor and was willing to belive all the crap they told me.  After 5 different rounds of shots his thigh would swell to almost twice its normal size and get red and hot, he would scream and cry for several days and the swelling would take about a week to go down- within the relm of exceptible normal according to his doctor. He would also refuse to crawl or walk during this time of pain. Three different times he went in with no sign of sickness and then would spike a 103-104 degree fever within 24 hours. I was just told to give him tylonol and put him in a cold bath to lower it, again nothing to be concerned about and stop being a parinoid mom. 

 

While pregnant with my second I wised up and starting looking into vaxes, and relized that what my first had went through was not normal, and so switch to a naturalpath and he recomended putting our second and any other children we had on a very delayed schedule of waiting several years to even start vaxes. Then looking at each vaccine and getting to know what they do, why it is a good idea to get them, which ones do we feel comfortable doing and which we needed to further look into. 

 

My second child had one shot of the hep vax that I told them not to give, but they did.

 

My third is still fully non-vaxed. 

 

We are planning on getting the younger two some vaxes in the near future, but since moving to Idaho last year I am having trouble finding a doctor that does not want to just jump right in and catch them up. 

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