do you vaccinate? - Page 8

[Calm]

What a parent should be doing is weighing up the long term risks of not vaxing vs the long term risks of vaxing. Instead, parents are weighing up the perceived short term reaction risks vs perceived long term protective benefits.  I personally would like a long term study done on the vaccinated and their adult health and longevity compared to those who were not vaccinated. 

In my work, and life, I have seen enough evidence to suggest there is more to the risks of vaccinating than immediate death or brain damage (both of which carry similar risk levels as the diseases themselves - very low). And really... logically... how could there not be long term ramifications? If there is long term immune effect, there is long term effect, period. 

 

One day, someone will get the finance and desire for this kind of study and I for one think it will shine the brightest light on this subject, particularly to parents like those who go to this forum. Most mothers, especially attachment mothers, are concerned with the long term repercussions of their actions and decisions upon their children. We avoid hitting for instance, due to the extent of harm this can do. We don't need science for that, we trust our logic and instincts that yes, hitting young people is probably going to inflict long term issues. We worry what they eat, what they are exposed to, etc, as to how this will affect them for the rest of their lives, not just in this moment.

 

I have no stats at this time, but I believe without a shred of doubt that some time in the future a study will be done that shows the cells were struggling much harder under the strain of the cocktail of poison in those injections. Future parents will have a bigger pool of information to go through, more long term things to consider. We don't have that benefit yet, but our children might, when they are making this decision.

 

My parents were not vaccinated and they did not vax me and I did not vax my kids. None of us get sick, mum tells me I didn't get sick as a kid either... we are always the ones looking after everyone else who gets sick with contagion or whatever. I wonder if there is a correlation, as even that would be a difficult thing to survey, considering how few of us there are, esp with a completely unvaxed family bloodline such as my own.

[heathergirl67]

Actually, mercury (thimerisol) was taken out of many childhood vaccines in 2001, two years before that report. Thimerisol is still an ingredient in some vaccines, including the flu shot. But, like that study is one example of, it has been found to not be a cause of harm.

Fact: the dose makes the poison. I'm sorry if that sounds like it's ridiculous to you, but it's not really up for debate. It just is, in the true essence of the word, a fact. For example, if you ingested a gallon of formaldehyde it would probably be detrimental to your health. However, your body naturally makes a much smaller amount of formaldehyde every day that is essential to keeping you in good health. Similarly, you need water to survive. But if you drink too much of it at once you will die.

Fact: when vaccination uptake rates go down, the amount of the circulating disease goes up. I would be happy to provide you with numerous examples, if you'd like, about how when people stop vaccinating there are marked and obvious increases in outbreaks of that disease. It's not a coincidence, it's proof of the efficacy of vaccination.

Fact: both vaccine-acquired immunity and natural immunity require "boosters" to be a continued protection.

Fact: vaccines do not contain viral or bacterial toxins, they contain toxoids. I know they sound the same, but I suspect that if you understood the science as well as you think you do, you would realize how significant their differences are. Vaccinations contain a few toxoids. The diseases they prevent introduce thousands or millions of toxins into the body.
 

Originally Posted by Calm 

Macy, that was done in 2003.  This is a perfect example of why the science is too premature yet to trust on our children.  For example, mercury was taken out of vaccines since that report.

[Ldavis24]

...double post

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by heathergirl67 

Actually, mercury (thimerisol) was taken out of many childhood vaccines in 2001, two years before that report. Thimerisol is still an ingredient in some vaccines, including the flu shot. But, like that study is one example of, it has been found to not be a cause of harm.

Fact: the dose makes the poison. I'm sorry if that sounds like it's ridiculous to you, but it's not really up for debate. It just is, in the true essence of the word, a fact. For example, if you ingested a gallon of formaldehyde it would probably be detrimental to your health. However, your body naturally makes a much smaller amount of formaldehyde every day that is essential to keeping you in good health. Similarly, you need water to survive. But if you drink too much of it at once you will die.

Fact: when vaccination uptake rates go down, the amount of the circulating disease goes up. I would be happy to provide you with numerous examples, if you'd like, about how when people stop vaccinating there are marked and obvious increases in outbreaks of that disease. It's not a coincidence, it's proof of the efficacy of vaccination.

Fact: both vaccine-acquired immunity and natural immunity require "boosters" to be a continued protection.

Fact: vaccines do not contain viral or bacterial toxins, they contain toxoids. I know they sound the same, but I suspect that if you understood the science as well as you think you do, you would realize how significant their differences are. Vaccinations contain a few toxoids. The diseases they prevent introduce thousands or millions of toxins into the body.
 

ironically it is generally the vaccinated people getting ill and transmitting the disease.

[macy]

thimerisol was only taken out of most vaccines because certain segments of the public were paranoid about it, not because of any evidence that thimerisol was actually harmful. the review is still very relevant.

[macy]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 

ironically it is generally the vaccinated people getting ill and transmitting the disease.

most people are vaccinated so yes most people who get sick will be vaccinated people, but only because there are more of them. hope that makes sense. at least when vaccinated people get a VPD it's generally milder and less likely to result in hospitalization. that's why i vaccinate - not because i'm afraid my child will die of a VPD but because i want to avoid hospitalization due to sickness.

[ema-adama]

 Heather.

I am surprised at your tone to the PP.

Of course there is a difference between a toxoid and a toxin. Pertussis, Diphtheria and Tetanus have toxoids. Aluminum and Mercury are neuro-toxins. And yes, they are both in vaccines.

Just recently there was a study in Australia that found higher levels of Hg in the vaccine vial than the manufacturer claimed. Which would certainly make me suspicious of claims that the mercury has been filtered out and it's nothing to worry about.

Thimerasol (injected ethyl mercury) has not been deemed safe in any dose by any high quality science. The studies that support such a claim are quite seriously flawed.

The claim that vaccines impact circulating disease full stop is problematic.I don't have the time to go into the specifics now, but yeah, it is not quite so simple as introduce vaccine and eliminate the disease. Each disease/vaccine has different issues.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by heathergirl67 

Fact: vaccines do not contain viral or bacterial toxins, they contain toxoids. I know they sound the same, but I suspect that if you understood the science as well as you think you do, you would realize how significant their differences are. Vaccinations contain a few toxoids. The diseases they prevent introduce thousands or millions of toxins into the body.
 

Ouch.  Tone.  

Here is a proposal:

How about I assume that that not all vaxers are simply going along with their doctors position (like sheep); and vaxers assume that non vaxers have as much of an understanding of science as the rest of society?

[purslaine]

nm

[macy]

its hard to assume that all non-vaxers understand science when you can come here and read about people being afraid of things like "foreign dna".

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by macy 

its hard to assume that all non-vaxers understand science when you can come here and read about people being afraid of things like "foreign dna".

fair point but it is equally hard to believe all vaxers are educated on the topic when they say things like "well I trust a doctor more than things I've read" or

"why would they make vaccines if they weren't good for us" ...2 things I have literally heard people say out loud. Ouch

...

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by macy 

its hard to assume that all non-vaxers understand science when you can come here and read about people being afraid of things like "foreign dna".

No one said all - there are people with some interesting ideas on both sides of the debate.  In general, though, we move closer to understanding when we do not make assumptions of groups as a whole.  Vaxers are not all sheeple; non-vaxers are not all science ignorant.

Edited by purslaine - 3/17/11 at 10:20am

[ema-adama]

Originally Posted by macy 

its hard to assume that all non-vaxers understand science when you can come here and read about people being afraid of things like "foreign dna".

Having gone back and read the preceding page in the discussion, I think it would have been fair to guess that the poster that heathergirl67 was responding to had a good chance of understanding the difference between a toxoid and a toxin.

Although I do agree that just because you choose not to vaccinate does not mean you have an understanding of the science. 

[purslaine]

oops...again.  Need coffee.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by ema-adama 

Although I do agree that just because you choose not to vaccinate does not mean you have an understanding of the science. 

Of course!  Many people who vax do not have a good understanding of science, either.

Indeed,  I think you can be pro vax or anti vax and have or not have a good understanding of science.  I do not think vax status and scientific understanding are related for most of the population.

I general, I think those who vax have seen stuff that makes them think it is a good idea, or they are inherantly trusting of the mainstream medical model.  Those who do not vax have seen stuff that makes them think it is not a good idea or they are inherantly skeptical or questioning of the mainstream medical model.  

[TStudies]

I do not vaccinate.  I do try to educate my friends and family who are having children, bc I think many people don't know it is an option to delay or not vacc.  I found myself constantly re-telling people what I had learned, and decided to make a blog instead that they could refer to.  I just hate that the whole subject is completely taboo in our society.  I think it does a lot of disservice to everyone for us to not communicate on the subject and educate ourselves. 

[Marnica]

[ema-adama]

With regard to the 'fact' that the dose makes the poison, I was reading on this blog and it made me think of this thread.

http://passionlessdrone.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/the-dangers-of-using-simplistic-rules-to-understand-complicated-processes-or-‘the-poison-is-in-the-dose’-versus-reality/

[Marnica]

Very interesting...thanks for sharing :)

 

Originally Posted by ema-adama 

With regard to the 'fact' that the dose makes the poison, I was reading on this blog and it made me think of this thread.

http://passionlessdrone.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/the-dangers-of-using-simplistic-rules-to-understand-complicated-processes-or-‘the-poison-is-in-the-dose’-versus-reality/

[macy]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 

fair point but it is equally hard to believe all vaxers are educated on the topic when they say things like "well I trust a doctor more than things I've read" or

"why would they make vaccines if they weren't good for us" ...2 things I have literally heard people say out loud. Ouch

...

In some ways I regret wasting my time reading up on vaccines. I spent more time learning about vaccines than I spent studying for some of my college courses, and for what? In the end I came to the conclusion that I was just going to follow my doctor's recommendations for the most part so I might have been better off using that time to learn about something more interesting or useful instead. I don't think there's anything wrong with not always trying to be educated on all topics and instead asking experts for their expert opinions, and I don't think you have to get a degree in immunology to be a good mom. But, if you are going to go against the experts then it helps if you really do have a strong background in science, at least strong enough not to automatically get scared just by terms like "toxins", "formaldehyde" and "foreign dna". I am certain there are people who don't vax for their own valid reasons and if I met someone IRL who said they didn't vax I wouldn't judge them for it or give their decision much thought (their kids will most likely be just as healthy as mine), but I think there are also those who are just afraid of vaccines because they don't really understand them and that's unfortunate.