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do you vaccinate? - Page 17

post #321 of 345
1/8/13 at 5:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Good point. If its on the list of recognized serious adverse events for a particular vaccine all you have to show is that it occurred in a reasonable timeframe after the vaccine. If its not on the list, you have to show that it's "50% plus a hair" likely it was caused, or just barely more likely than not, which is far short of a scientific standard.

According to the people who have actually won their cases in vaccine court, this is not true.  They all say that the experience was extremely adversarial, and that they had to have an absolutely airtight case.  Even the lawyers agree that the Special Masters go overboard looking for ANY possible cause other than vaccines as an excuse to turn down the plaintiff.


Here is an interview with one of those lawyers: http://www.activistpost.com/2012/08/exposing-fdas-vaccine-injury-cover-up.html

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post #322 of 345
1/8/13 at 5:38pm
no I didn't ask... I never knew vaccinations could be so dangerous, I've never heard anything bad about them so I never knew to ask... But since they can be dangerous and Doctors know that you would think they would warn you about it...
post #323 of 345
1/8/13 at 5:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovemy2boys25 View Post

no I didn't ask... I never knew vaccinations could be so dangerous, I've never heard anything bad about them so I never knew to ask... But since they can be dangerous and Doctors know that you would think they would warn you about it...

Do you typically accept medical treatment without first understanding the risks and benefits?
post #324 of 345
1/8/13 at 6:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post


Do you typically accept medical treatment without first understanding the risks and benefits?

 

Only so far as the risks and benefits are available. I was on Vioxx back in 2002. Good ol' Merck wasn't exactly open book with a lot of its data about side effects. 2whistle.gif Doctors cannot share info with you about risks if the manufacturer won't provide it. 

post #325 of 345
1/8/13 at 7:02pm
And I guess you can't find out if that's available if you make no effort to find out. It's hardly a secret that vaccines can lead to serious side effects.

In the US all doctors are required by law to provide vaccine information sheets, including information about serious side effects, BEFORE administering vaccines.
post #326 of 345
1/8/13 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

And I guess you can't find out if that's available if you make no effort to find out. It's hardly a secret that vaccines can lead to serious side effects.

In the US all doctors are required by law to provide vaccine information sheets, including information about serious side effects, BEFORE administering vaccines.

 

Too bad that type of regulation doesn't extend to prescription meds. But then, as mentioned, if the manufacturer is not forthcoming with data on side effects, then anything the doctor provides in that particular instance is incomplete anyway.

 

I don't think the same regulations vis-a-vis information sheets applies to all countries. It's up to the parents (who are medical consumers) to obtain the information themselves and not rely solely on their HCP for the data they're looking for. Since I'm not in the US, I can't comment on the parental information sheets, but if they're similar to what the health units hand out here, they're more general info and a little light on hard data.

post #327 of 345
1/8/13 at 7:46pm
These are the sheets used here.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/

I agree it's incumbent on patients nd their caregivers to educate themselves and be educated consumers. That doesn't excuse the responsibility of the hcp, though.

Fortunately we don't have to rely solely on manufacturers for data on vaccine safety and efficacy.
post #328 of 345
1/8/13 at 10:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

And I guess you can't find out if that's available if you make no effort to find out. It's hardly a secret that vaccines can lead to serious side effects.

In the US all doctors are required by law to provide vaccine information sheets, including information about serious side effects, BEFORE administering vaccines.

Too bad all docs are not law abiding.
post #329 of 345
1/9/13 at 4:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

Too bad all docs are not law abiding.

I'm in the US and my ped only gave the VIS packet at our first well visit.

I wonder how many peds actually give the sheets each time shots are given
post #330 of 345
1/9/13 at 6:48am
I can only speak to hat the law says. I imagine more would give them out if their patients asked for them. I'm not trying to excuse doctors responsibility to inform and educate. I've fired doctors for doing a poor job of that. Patients have a responsibility, too, though. When I hear people talkin about how they had NO IDEA vaccines could cause harmful side effects I have to wonder why they let their child have a medical procedure, apparently without doing even a minimal amount of research or inquiry, since that information is widely available even on the most mainstream websites.
post #331 of 345
1/9/13 at 10:10am
My children are 15 months and 3 months and have never needed a medical procedure (I don't call getting a shot a medical procedure)and if they did I would ask questions of course! I have never had a medical procedure until my c section and since my mom and sister both have had one I didn't feel that I needed to ask questions cause I knew what to expect. Nobody that I know has ever to my knowledge had any problems with vaccinations, I don't watch the news and I rarely use the interent so no I didn't realize how dangerous they could be, but I probably would have vaccinated my kids regardless.
post #332 of 345
1/9/13 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I can only speak to hat the law says.

Isn't that unrealistic, even irrelevant, if real life involves a heckuva lot more that what the law says?

 

As has been stated here many times, most doctors only give out a sheet from their office that states, "Reactions may include redness and swelling at the injection site, fever, and irritability."

 

The most mainstream sites imply that more serious reactions than that occur far less often than they really do.  What was it you said on another post?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post


It's fact that hep b is much more common than reported. That's why it's the silent epidemic. 
 
 
 
So you are willing to accept that hep B is much more common than reported, but not that severe vaccine reaction is much more common than 
 
 
reported.  
 
 
How interesting.
post #333 of 345
1/9/13 at 10:42am
Right. Because science supports one and not the other, taxi. It's not a mystery.
post #334 of 345
1/9/13 at 2:05pm
Don't most of the information sheets lists the common reactions and then just say something like "more serious reactions can occur rarely" - since that is in fact the case....
post #335 of 345
1/9/13 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Right. Because science supports one and not the other, taxi. It's not a mystery.

What, because you say so? No, I don't think that!ll fly here.

How about if you supply some proof to back up your statement? Remember, you said, "SCIENCE supports one and not the other."

Now, if you mean, "science-as-a-profiteering-business," we'll, that might make sense. Certainly, the pharmaceutical industry has put a lot of money into "fixing" the outcome of the studies it puts out, in order to maximize profits. I don't think anyone would argue that one.

But if you mean, "science-as-the-study-of-systematically-finding-the-truth," which is what most people assume you mean, then you'll find most people, even scientists, are going to disagree with you. You see, we already know that what the pharmaceutical industry passes off as science--isn't. They cherry-pick in order to support sales of their product. Even such mainstream science giants as the Cochrane Review, and Marcia Angell have complained about this.

So--some proof, please?
post #336 of 345
1/9/13 at 2:07pm
I can't prove a negative, taxi.
post #337 of 345
1/9/13 at 2:09pm
Psm, the vis sheets used in the us are generally much more specific than that. Check out the one for dtap, for example. It lists lots of specific reactions and they're associated rate.
post #338 of 345
1/9/13 at 2:17pm
Ok.

If people are intested - In the uk we are handed leaflets at point of vaccination about whats happening with a variety of information including information about why the vaccination is needed and also reactions. Here these do not happen as part of "well child checks" as those dont exists as such (drop in to nurse staffed health clinics is available at any time instead). You attend a vaccination clinic staffed by nurses at the doctors office.
post #339 of 345
1/9/13 at 5:52pm
Because most mainstream parents just follow their doctors advice. Vaccines aren't seen as something to be questioned, and when they are everyone just brushes it off as "what you do" . Like, parent: doctor, is this shot safe? Doctor: yes it's safe. Heres a sheet about the mild side effects. parent: oh ok I'll give soe Tylenol now. End.thats pretty much how everyone I knows conversation went at their respective peds, mine too until I started asking questions, then iget more info. I hope that makes sense..nak
Edit to say that my post is kinda irrelevant now, was tool ate to the game,,:-)
post #340 of 345
1/11/13 at 6:33pm

We are completely vaccine free. I was injured by vaccines as a child. So were my sister and young aunt. I started to study vaccinations and the diseases themselves when I was just 15 - after nearly dying due to a Tetanus Booster - that I didn't need! Since then I have spend somewhere around 8000 hours researching and finding the truth. What I found has only convinced me that vaccination is about money, not health. For every story of a child getting sick with measles, smallpox, pertussis or whatever else there are 5 stories of horrid debilitating adverse reactions to the vaccines that are said to ward them off - not to mention a higher infection rate in vaccinated children. So no, we don't vaccinate, and never will. When I finish my degree I plan to work with our local and state law makers to educate them on vaccination in hopes of changing legal matters around the subject.

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