do you vaccinate? - Page 5

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

Right I am saying vaccines are full of toxins, just like flame retardants. So if you are pro-vax I am wondering if you also take every measure out there the Gov thinks is best for you and your family, such as the use of flame retardants. I know I avoid them like the plague b/c they are unsafe chemicals I do not want in my body or my LOs. Now after years and years of these chemicals being deemed as "safe and necessary" in case you are caught in a fire, they are saying oh snap the chemical we used is causing cancer. Not to mention the chemicals are actually absorbed b/c they found these chemicals in the kidney and bloodwork...

So would I douse my body with toxins/chemicals that could have adverse effects just to try and prevent a "what if"?

If their was a fire these chemicals would or would not actually help you survive...just like a vax may or may not actually work in your individual body.

Does that make sense?

It does make sense to an extent.  But my (unfortunately vast) personal experience with cancers and ill health in general is that the toxins might be a small contributing factor.  My mother avoided toxins, ate really well, had two sexual partners (her husband's) her whole life, was HPV NEGATIVE and died of cervical cancer.  The type she had doesn't grow on the sclera and isn't caused by HPV, they still don't know what triggers it there.  It might have been an interaction between the medication she took to prevent her osteopirosis crippling her and the medication she took to stop her heart condition (caused by rheumatic fever she caught in hospital while recovering from scarlet fever) killing her.  We don't know, she's dead now so we'll never know.  Am i ready to believe it was her mattress or her t-shirt or her flu vaccine?  No.  Nothing i have ever read would lead me to believe that.

I do not fear death, but i fear illness.  Caring for a terminally ill relative through my teens did that to me.

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

Right I am saying vaccines are full of toxins, just like flame retardants. So if you are pro-vax I am wondering if you also take every measure out there the Gov thinks is best for you and your family, such as the use of flame retardants. I know I avoid them like the plague b/c they are unsafe chemicals I do not want in my body or my LOs. Now after years and years of these chemicals being deemed as "safe and necessary" in case you are caught in a fire, they are saying oh snap the chemical we used is causing cancer. Not to mention the chemicals are actually absorbed b/c they found these chemicals in the kidney and bloodwork...

So would I douse my body with toxins/chemicals that could have adverse effects just to try and prevent a "what if"?

If their was a fire these chemicals would or would not actually help you survive...just like a vax may or may not actually work in your individual body.

Does that make sense?

Does that make sense?  I guess.  If you believe that vaccines are chock-full of toxins.  I don't.
 

[TonyaW]

I am curious to know how many of these children who were deaf or developmentally disabled were partially or fully vaccinated before contracting a vaccine associated disease. Was the mom vaccinated for Rubella in the children who had CRS? Were these children well nourished? Did the children get HIB for which there is a vaccinate or another type? All these questions are important in my mind before deciding that vaccines would or would not have protected these particular children.
 

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

You may consider them benign.  I don't.  During my residency, we had an excellent ASL translator at our clinic.  Because of this, we had a huge amount of Deaf patients.  Very few were deaf from birth.  Most were deaf from your "benign" diseases, HiB especially.  I also had several patients with congenital rubella syndrome.  Blind (from congenital cataracts), deaf and developmentally disabled.  Yup, sounds like a walk in the park!

Thanks, I'll keep vaccinating.

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by TonyaW 

I am curious to know how many of these children who were deaf or developmentally disabled were partially or fully vaccinated before contracting a vaccine associated disease. Was the mom vaccinated for Rubella in the children who had CRS? Were these children well nourished? Did the children get HIB for which there is a vaccinate or another type? All these questions are important in my mind before deciding that vaccines would or would not have protected these particular children.
 

None of them were vaccinated for those diseases that caused their illness.  None. I see adults only.  All of these patients were in their 20s or older.  This was more than 10 years ago.  The Hib vaccine was not available until the early 90's, so none of them received it.  The ones with CRS did not have mothers who were vaccinated- the rubella vaccine was not around yet.  As far as their nutritional status- I have no idea.  I have no reason to think it was sub-standard.  They were otherwise in excellent health.  This was New York City, so hardly the third world. I don't think you can blame poor nutrition or poor sanitation for their condition.

[newmamalizzy]

Originally Posted by Naomi 

I have read the research and feel very comfortable with this decision.  Also, as a college student, I studied abroad in a third world country where not everyone had access to vaccinations, so the consequences of a largely unvaccinated society are not abstract to me; I've seen them personally.

Yes, this.  Everything changes when you live in a world where there is a very real threat of your child contracting one of these diseases.  We in the U.S. (and Canada) don't live in a world like that.  I believe that's a good thing, and that compulsory vaccination is the reason.

[newmamalizzy]

Sorry to post over and over again, but I love a good debate, and I love how listening to what y'all are saying is helping me to clarify my own position for myself.   

"We as a society in this country have been told for a long time by the government what is "good" for us and maybe I sound like a conspiracy theorist but I can't listen to someone who tells me, these are great for you! They WILL protect you (we all know vaxes are NOT 100% but somehow that always get left out at the doctor's office)" 

See, I don't think they recommend the vaccines to protect "you."  I think they recommend them to protect "us."  I don't think the "science" is there to answer the question of whether or not you should vaccinate your particular child.  I think it's there to answer the overall question of whether or not "we" should vaccinate our children.  That's what I originally meant when I mentioned that I felt that pro-science was kind of an impersonal standpoint. 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

You may consider them benign.  I don't.  During my residency, we had an excellent ASL translator at our clinic.  Because of this, we had a huge amount of Deaf patients.  Very few were deaf from birth.  Most were deaf from your "benign" diseases, HiB especially.  I also had several patients with congenital rubella syndrome.  Blind (from congenital cataracts), deaf and developmentally disabled.  Yup, sounds like a walk in the park!

Thanks, I'll keep vaccinating.

This is anecdotal and is not science. It is also no different from reports from parents of children who have been harmed or killed by vaccines who then choose not to vaccinate further. If you view you point of view as a valid reason to vax then the opposite is a valid reason not to vaccinate.

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

This is anecdotal and is not science. It is also no different from reports from parents of children who have been harmed or killed by vaccines who then choose not to vaccinate further. If you view you point of view as a valid reason to vax then the opposite is a valid reason not to vaccinate.

Where did I say that this was my reason for vaccinating?  This was a direct response to someone who said that she considers these diseases to be benign.  I am giving an example of why they are not.

[BlueStateMama]

We vax.  I have had many long and interesting convos w/ my ped, who has seen my children since birth, has 3 of his own and is open and honest during great discussions re the research (including Wakefield and the flawed MMR studies he backed away from)  We've talked in terms of medical journal studies and all of the current research.  I take into account various resources, but ultimately trust the most current med research.

BUT - I have friends who do not and I'm equally supportive and understanding of their POVS.  We may differ, but I know all mothers want the best for their children and people come to different conclusions based on their own research.  I may opt for studies published in medical journals, but I understand that people may have heard horrific anecdoctal stories that have persuaded them.  Also, I do know moms whose children have vax reactions, v. scary and would make me think twice if that were our situation.

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by newmamalizzy 

Yes, this.  Everything changes when you live in a world where there is a very real threat of your child contracting one of these diseases.  We in the U.S. (and Canada) don't live in a world like that.  I believe that's a good thing, and that compulsory vaccination is the reason.

Could possibly be ONE reason (some will argue otherwise...) but there are likely many reasons, i.e. clean water, improved medical care, better sanitation........

I have spent time in third-world countries as well, but I'm currently living in the US so I make my choices based on that. The risk/benefit analysis is different depending where you live... there are a lot of things that would help people in third-world countries that aren't currently necessary where I live....

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

Where did I say that this was my reason for vaccinating?  This was a direct response to someone who said that she considers these diseases to be benign.  I am giving an example of why they are not.

Fair enough, but as a medical doctor your point of view is influenced by your experience of the world, you see worst case scenarios so I feel it is skewed. I also happen to believe that VADs are in the main benign. I have had measles, mumps, rubella and they were really nothing much. I all the children I grew up with had them too and not one experienced serious complications let alone died. Different experience, different opinion. Vaccinations are not begin either.

[BlueStateMama]

I'm really trying to stay on topic, but these convos make me a little buggy. When I see villages in countries being taken out by disease I wish they had the (well, first, clean water and sanitation) and secondly the vaccinations to immunize against TOTALLY PREVENTABLE DISEASES.  I'm guessing most of the babies are breast fed, they are exposed to plenty of healthy bacteria, etc. But...measles (530,000 deaths annually), pertussis (200,000-300,000 deaths, again, annually), tetanus (214,000...yup, annually.)   I feel like the whole vax convo is a first world privilege we have in the US/Canada/Europe.  If I choose to vax on a delayed/selected schedule, I could with a relatively minimal risk of my child dying. 

Reading WHO stats  (we quote them for breastfeeding facts, I know I do, so I think it's fair to be consistent): 

Measles deaths have declined by more than 50% since 1999. In 2005, 75 million children received measles vaccines, and 37 countries were vaccinating 60% or more of their children against the disease.

Pertussis: In 2008, about 82% of all infants worldwide received 3 doses of pertussis vaccine. WHO estimates that, in 2008, global vaccination against pertussis averted about 687 000 deaths.

[crunchy_mommy]

It would be cool if someone could send the vaxes I'm not using on DS to someone in another country who needs them... (I'm not trying to be flip, I sincerely mean that...)

[BlueStateMama]

Actually, that sounds like a potential solution.  I think because we have good medical care, clean water, antiobiotics, etc., maybe we should start a "vax exchange" with countries that need them.  :)  Seriously, that might help a lot of children in third-world nations and alleviate the concerns of mothers "here" that have made the decision not to vax.  There's an idea there....

[oaktreemama]

 I have had measles, mumps, rubella and they were really nothing much. I all the children I grew up with had them too and not one experienced serious complications let alone died.

And I don't know a single person who has had a serious reaction to a vaccine-let alone died.

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

Does that make sense?  I guess.  If you believe that vaccines are chock-full of toxins.  I don't.
 

believe what you want but a simple list of the ingredients will point out that vaccines have toxins in them. I don't have all my links at my disposal at the moment but I will get them when I am on my own computer...I wouldn't say "chock full" but yes toxins are in there.

[purplepaperclip]

We've done our research and it has confirmed our decision to vaccinate. 

[treeoflife3]

I would love it if I could send our unused vaccine doses to someone in a third world country who needs it way more!  I'm not against vaccines as a whole, not by a long shot.  I just don't feel like they are right for me or my child where we are currently in life.  Perhaps we will change our minds and start vaxing kiddo, but in the meantime, I'd prefer someone else benefit from them.

[macy]

Originally Posted by treeoflife3 

I would love it if I could send our unused vaccine doses to someone in a third world country who needs it way more!  I'm not against vaccines as a whole, not by a long shot.  I just don't feel like they are right for me or my child where we are currently in life.  Perhaps we will change our minds and start vaxing kiddo, but in the meantime, I'd prefer someone else benefit from them.

maybe you could donate money to unicef and they can buy vaccines with the money.

[macy]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 

believe what you want but a simple list of the ingredients will point out that vaccines have toxins in them. I don't have all my links at my disposal at the moment but I will get them when I am on my own computer...I wouldn't say "chock full" but yes toxins are in there.

i know the conspiracy theorists will dismiss this review but i found it to be helpful.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14654615