Question about expectations

[delphine]

This is my first post in this forum, but I thought the wealth of knowledge here would be very beneficial to me.

I don't know if my son is gifted or not, but we're having some issues with school that are similar to many that I have read here. "L" is 8 years old and in third grade at a small, private school. He has always breezed through the academic aspect of school, while struggling somewhat socially. I would say that he is fairly immature socially, but we have seen a lot of improvements this year. L is definitely advanced in most academic areas. He is reading at a 900-1,000 lexile level (according to testing they do in school), though he regularly reads books that are on a high school level, mostly science reference books.

His math skills are advanced according to his teacher, and he does well in all of the other areas. He seems to just "get" concepts very quickly. For example, when his teacher introduces a new math concept, he just seems to understand it right away and makes what I would consider higher thinking connections (i.e. they were learning "long" multiplication and he automatically connected that to the processes of long division).

So, all is great, right? Well...no! He is consistently sloppy in his work. For example, he takes a weekly math quiz. The quiz is in the same format each week. They are required to copy the problem over from the quiz to their answer sheet. He almost always has 2-3 questions where he just forgets to copy the question over, getting points taken off even though the answer is correct. He says this is because he does the math in his head, which he probably does, but clearly he knows the expectation is to copy the problem.

Along the same track, he also often copies the problem over incorrectly. So, while he gets the answer correctly for the problem that he wrote, the answer is counted wrong because he copied it over incorrectly. He also often just leaves questions blank. When I ask him about it later, he knows the answer, he just didn't answer it. Or, on an essay question, he will answer the first part and forget to answer the second part (i.e. the question asks him to give an example and he explains the concept but forgets to give an example)

I'm not exaggerating when i tell you that 95% of the mistakes he has had this school year have been of the sloppy nature. So, I guess my question is, how hard to I push him to do "perfect" work? As it stands, he has straight A's, even with the sloppy mistakes. But, it drives me crazy to know that he could be doing better work and he just doesn't bother to do it. I feel like there will come a time when he IS challenged and he won't know how to handle it because he's always used the least amount of effort possible. And, I would feel like a hypocrite piling praise on him for getting a's when he's not even trying.

I like his current school, but they do not offer a gifted program. And, I'm not even sure that's the right step for him. I guess I am looking for some guidance on what my steps should be. I guess I have always assumed that he is smart, but not necessarily gifted. I mean, he's not in the basement building micro-computers from spare vacuum parts or anything like that. But, he's obviously capable of doing much more than he's currently doing. Thanks in advance for any advice.

[moominmamma]

My own philosophy is that it's helpful for a child to find an area of learning where he can strive for his best consistently over time and learn to polish, double-check, revise, review and so on. That could be tae kwon do, or piano, or gymnastics, or something else; it doesn't necessarily need to be a school subject. Generally I wouldn't sweat the sort of stuff you describe. Properly copying a question is not going to help him learn more about math, or better solidify what learning he has completed. The point of going to school is to learn. Sometimes grades are a useful way to encourage motivation to learn, but school isn't about "providing perfect evidence of learning," it's about learning. But if your ds is learning very well (as clearly is the case) without being obsessed with getting perfect scores, I say more power to him.

Miranda

[aishamama]

I'd probably cut him some slack and not pressure him. We all have different traits in us. Some desire to strive towards perfection very, very hard and some know what's going on and doing well though a little bit careless. He's getting A's so he's not 'that' careless. We all could improve somehow. I'd get him involved in a sport, hobby, or something to boost his sense of socialization/maturity and sense of being in a wholesome kind of way.  My dh and I encourage a sense of community accountability by service projects / volunteering. Even though my kids are little they are very much capable of doing something to help out, even if no one sees it. This might sound like bizarre advice, but all I'm trying to say is to help him 'exist' and think on a higher level in terms of community to make him feel more accountable and needed, and not stress too much about these things. I think he's ok =) 

[delphine]

Thanks for the responses.  I think you are right...I just need to relax about it.   In the long run, it's probably not a hill to die on.  I like the suggestions to expand his learning in other ways.  He is in the band at school and he already does taekwondo, but I really like the suggestion to get more involved in the community.  Volunteering is not something I have really suggested or encouraged him to do, but I think it's something that would be really beneficial to him. 

Thanks again...sometimes I just need someone to say, "Relax!!!" 

[quaz]

deleted

Edited by quaz - 5/25/11 at 10:36am

[delphine]

Originally Posted by quaz 

First...

I guess I have always assumed that he is smart, but not necessarily gifted. I mean, he's not in the basement building micro-computers from spare vacuum parts or anything like that. But, he's obviously capable of doing much more than he's currently doing.

If this was the definition of gifted, then nobody would be on this board. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there aren't people creating micro-computers from vacuum parts.

My point is that gifted is not the same as genius. I think we make a big mistake when we mix up the concepts of gifted, and just crazy genius/brilliance.

What do you suspect gifted is? I mean, he is reading high school science books in 3rd grade. That seems pretty out there. Obviously I can't tell by just a post, but based on what you said, he sounds probably gifted. 

Thanks for the response. 

Yeah, the comment about the micro-computers was my attempt at a (probably lame) joke.   But, yeah, I guess I do kind of have this picture of gifted in my head that would be more closely defined as genius.  I had never really thought about it before, but you're right.  I'm not sure I have a really clear picture of the definition of gifted. 

You wrote:  (sorry, I can't figure out how to multi-quote)

Now, while I would not be too concerned about occasional mistakes, I would be very concerned if he was bored and racing through work. I would try to ferret that part out. What does he get to do when he finishes his work?

I also think this is an age thing. I have read multiple issues with 'attention' issues with gifted kids at this age. I could be just a coincidence, but I don't think so. My child (also 8), is also having issue with racing through things and making silly mistakes. She does this to finish her work quickly, so she can read.  Her case is not about boredom, but I have concerns for other reasons 

My response:

This is interesting to me.  He definitely races through his work. But his issue is generally that he is spending a lot of time "just thinking" (his words).  His teacher says that she often thinks he is not paying attention because he seems to be daydreaming.  BUT, she says if she asks him a question about something she has said, he can always answer, so he's obviously paying attention.  He says he just has so much to think about, he can't focus solely on schoolwork.  So, he races through his work because it's more important to him to be able to focus on other things. 

When he finishes his work quickly, the teacher will generally give him some math worksheets, which is something he enjoys doing.

Can you expand a little on the attention factor?  As I mentioned above, it is somewhat of an issue for us.  I will admit I haven't ever researched a connection between attention and giftedness, but I would be greatly interested in that.

[Freeman]

If the child doesn't have to pay attention to know the material, sometimes the child won't. This is something that came up at ds's parent-teacher conference, with the teacher saying, "Eventually the material will get harder, and he will have to pay attention."

[Galatea]

My 7 year old shows great understanding when discussing new topics, but if given a worksheet, will race through it and make silly mistakes he wouldn't make verbally.  And I have to say, *I* don't pay attention to things that are not new information for me!  I'd get in trouble were I in school!

[Just1More]

My mom kept us all out of gifted programs on purpose.  She wouldn't even let us be tested.  Do I resent that? Not at all. 

I was happy that school was really easy for me.  I made lots of stupid mistakes, and I dreaded mundane tasks.  But, it was good for me in the long run.

My mom believed that children, no matter their intelligence, should learn to work with people of all abilities.  But, she also believed in unschooling.  Keeping us home wasn't an option, but none of us ever thought that school was a place for learning.  I know that sounds strange.  Mom says all she felt we needed to know, she taught us at home.  Looking back, I can see that.  We all were A students, and none of us studied or did homework. 

But, since we weren't strapped with studying for harder, yet more appropriate, material, we were free for our own pursuits when we were away from school.

Keeping us out of gifted programs, and only intervening when we were causing trouble (which we didn't) at school, or weren't getting A's (which is enough to say "the kid is fine, he's got the material"), allowed all of us to learn what we wanted, and do so much more.

Sometime I think that challenging younger kids with material that they CAN handle, prevents them from doing the incredible things that they MIGHT do if allowed the freedom to choose.  Going to school and getting the A is just a formal checkbox for our society.  It doesn't have to be more than that.

[pranava]

Originally Posted by Just1More 

My mom kept us all out of gifted programs on purpose.  She wouldn't even let us be tested.  Do I resent that? Not at all. 

I was happy that school was really easy for me.  I made lots of stupid mistakes, and I dreaded mundane tasks.  But, it was good for me in the long run.

My mom believed that children, no matter their intelligence, should learn to work with people of all abilities.  But, she also believed in unschooling.  Keeping us home wasn't an option, but none of us ever thought that school was a place for learning.  I know that sounds strange.  Mom says all she felt we needed to know, she taught us at home.  Looking back, I can see that.  We all were A students, and none of us studied or did homework. 

But, since we weren't strapped with studying for harder, yet more appropriate, material, we were free for our own pursuits when we were away from school.

Keeping us out of gifted programs, and only intervening when we were causing trouble (which we didn't) at school, or weren't getting A's (which is enough to say "the kid is fine, he's got the material"), allowed all of us to learn what we wanted, and do so much more.

Sometime I think that challenging younger kids with material that they CAN handle, prevents them from doing the incredible things that they MIGHT do if allowed the freedom to choose.  Going to school and getting the A is just a formal checkbox for our society.  It doesn't have to be more than that.

 Thanks so much for that perspective on things!  I needed that, and will keep it in mind as I think about educational options

[Roar]

Just1more - I appreciate your positive attitude and I in no way want to take away from your appreciation of your experience. I do want to share though that your experience with unchallenging school is really different from what a lot of gifted kids experience. For many, me included, spending the whole day without appropriate work was a kind of torture. It much like what a typically developing 5th grader might find it like to be given all first grade work. The little bit of gifted classes and other challenges were appreciated and I wish they had happened more often.

When kids get to the point where they think "hooray it is all easy" for eight hours every day I see something broken in that situation because I believe the inborn state of human beings is to desire to learn and be productive. Despite school boredom, I continued to love to learn and yes, I spent my hours out of school more engaged in learning than the hours in school. That was the best I could do with the options available but it was far from a full fix. Living as a homeschooler is a radically different situation. Whether they go to school or not, I hope for kids that they get more than learning to make the best of a broken situation.
Edited by Roar - 3/24/11 at 6:12pm

[joensally]

Originally Posted by Just1More 

My mom kept us all out of gifted programs on purpose.  She wouldn't even let us be tested.  Do I resent that? Not at all. 

I was happy that school was really easy for me.  I made lots of stupid mistakes, and I dreaded mundane tasks.  But, it was good for me in the long run.

My mom believed that children, no matter their intelligence, should learn to work with people of all abilities.  But, she also believed in unschooling.  Keeping us home wasn't an option, but none of us ever thought that school was a place for learning.  I know that sounds strange.  Mom says all she felt we needed to know, she taught us at home.  Looking back, I can see that.  We all were A students, and none of us studied or did homework. 

But, since we weren't strapped with studying for harder, yet more appropriate, material, we were free for our own pursuits when we were away from school.

Keeping us out of gifted programs, and only intervening when we were causing trouble (which we didn't) at school, or weren't getting A's (which is enough to say "the kid is fine, he's got the material"), allowed all of us to learn what we wanted, and do so much more.

Sometime I think that challenging younger kids with material that they CAN handle, prevents them from doing the incredible things that they MIGHT do if allowed the freedom to choose.  Going to school and getting the A is just a formal checkbox for our society.  It doesn't have to be more than that.

I'll gently suggest that a couple of things may have been at play here to make this a tenable set of circumstances.  The first is that you and your sibs may have temperaments that were amenable to this set up.  The second is that you attended good schools and maybe the level of instruction was sufficiently near your zone of proximal development.

My DD has dropped out of school twice now because she couldn't stand being so out of sync with the curriculum and teaching methodology - and she's 11.  These were both good schools, but she just doesn't have the temperament for it.  We're now HSing; public school refugees.

[joensally]

Originally Posted by delphine 

I'm not exaggerating when i tell you that 95% of the mistakes he has had this school year have been of the sloppy nature. So, I guess my question is, how hard to I push him to do "perfect" work? As it stands, he has straight A's, even with the sloppy mistakes. But, it drives me crazy to know that he could be doing better work and he just doesn't bother to do it. I feel like there will come a time when he IS challenged and he won't know how to handle it because he's always used the least amount of effort possible. And, I would feel like a hypocrite piling praise on him for getting a's when he's not even trying.

I like his current school, but they do not offer a gifted program. And, I'm not even sure that's the right step for him. I guess I am looking for some guidance on what my steps should be. I guess I have always assumed that he is smart, but not necessarily gifted. I mean, he's not in the basement building micro-computers from spare vacuum parts or anything like that. But, he's obviously capable of doing much more than he's currently doing. Thanks in advance for any advice.

I'm not particularly conscientious when engaged in mundane, uninspiring tasks.  I really like the concept of "zone of proximal development," where the work is in your "just right" zone - between where you can do it entirely independently and where you need peer or teacher support.  It's unrealistic to expect that every kid will spend every moment in their unique-to-them zone, but they should spend some of their day there.  This is where we learn, and where we learn to "work" or see the effort=result equation.

I would pay attention to this, and I would talk to his school.

Taking on a sport or musical instrument is a great way to address these concerns.

[loraxc]

When kids get to the point where they think "hooray it is all easy" for eight hours every day I see something broken in that situation because I believe the inborn state of human beings is to desire to learn and be productive.

I agree. I do recognize that some children are naturally more happy to coast/daydream/put up with it than others.

[Just1More]

I think I may have been misunderstood.  Yep.  I was bored in school.  Yep, I was several grade levels ahead, always.  (With the exception of high school math and latin...which I learned in about 5 minutes of class each day, but someone does have to show you a bit at some point...).  A few times I did do my own material within the classroom, but even that I remember being pretty easy.  Mostly, annoying, lol.  I remember a few kids of the crazy smart level sitting in the back of my latin class speaking latin...backwards.  I'm sure I could have figured that out, but didn't want to put the effort in.

BUT, I was engaged with all sorts of other stuff.  So, I played the school game, and it wasn't a problem for me.  I had plenty of outlets to work hard, and they were of my own choosing.  Sure, it was hard sometimes not to be able to talk to other people on an equal level, but I got stimulation with other adults in my time away from school.  By the time I was in high school, I spent most of my day in band classes, and upper math, only taking as much of the other stuff that I had to.  I would push myself in those classes, regularly turning in papers twice as long as required and such.  I was free to create my own community service projects, hide in my room and take stuff apart, ride my bike and draw maps, etc. 

My point is not that we should keep our children in a state of boredom, just that sometimes it's okay to play the game for a period of time to get what we want the rest of the time. 

I will also add that I am aware that school is not what it was, and I know teachers turned a blind eye to some of my exploits.  I didn't get in trouble, but I was always creating, imaging, planning, organizing, etc.  And, I only had to go to school from 8 to 3, and was on my own the rest of the time.  In fact, after about fourth grade, I got myself to and from school, too, and was free to do all sorts of fun stuff there and back.  At school, it was fun to be a big fish in a little pond, and to meet lots of people and just "hang out".  School was fun.  But not educational. :)