Any Christian Mystics out there? - Page 8

[Koalamom]

Nicole, that is a great story! I actually did the quite opposite and stayed away from my very judgmental family on Easter and spent the day with my loving mystic Jesus believing dh and kids. We went for a walk and watched the sun go down by the lake next door and 2 beavers came out and ate their diner very close to us. It was a very special day just being in nature. Not sure if it put me in tune with the creator, but last night I had a dream of the future and a question I had been asking answered kind of.

Originally Posted by Sol_y_Paz 

I am so sorry for your loss and thank you for sharing this.   I have been dealing with losses lately of members in my close family and it is beyond anything I have ever known.  

Hugs! I hope you find peace right now.

[Koalamom]

double post

[nicolelynn]

Yes, I am so sorry for your losses Bluebirdmama and Sol_y_Paz. I haven't lost any close friends or family members (besides great-grandmothers who died at an old age after living a full, blessed life and who both knew Jesus) but I lost a co-worker a few months ago and just found out this week a friend I knew online. Both to cancer, co-worker was only 39 and friend was only 35. Of course, I only knew the friend online, but this is probably the closest it got to me. We had in depth conversations about our health, faith, politics, etc. It would be like losing one of you, though I've never met you in person we have fellowship. So passing on is something I am suddenly forced to meditate on. Peace and comfort to you, sisters.

[faithsstuff]

Someone mentioned the Book of Enoch which is interesting b/c I just read Angelology (fun read) and it lead to hearing of the book of Enoch for the first time!  I think it's time to find a copy :) 

[nicolelynn]

Yeah, the Book of Enoch is next on my list. I believe you can find it to read online for free, unless you want a written copy.

I just read the Gospel of Thomas today. My soul just drank it up thirstily, really...I am just blown away. I even started crying in the middle of it, feeling some kind of spiritual re-birth. It is very mystical and probably why it was left out of the canon. Some argue it is "gnostic" but it isn't full gnostic (not that really matters to me anymore). Many scholars believe it pre-dates the canon gospels. It is all about the Kingdom of God being within us and all around us.

Some of my favorite verses:

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

The last saying of Jesus in the gospel of Thomas is quite bizarre and awful regarding women, but most scholars believe it was added later. It seems pretty evident to me as it seems so haphazardly pasted at the end. My Mom said probably to discredit it since the rest was tough to fit in their neat theological boxes....

[holyhelianthus]

Lots of awesome free PDF (and other format) free ebooks here! http://www.consciouslivingfoundation.org/ebooks-inspirational.htm

[Sol_y_Paz]

Originally Posted by bluebirdmama1 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol_y_Paz 

I have been dealing with losses lately of members in my close family and it is beyond anything I have ever known.  

Hugs! I hope you find peace right now.

Thank you.  And thanks to you guys who have kept me in your thoughts during this hard time. 
After muddling around aimlessly and broken I found significant deep comfort in a somewhat unusual place this week.  I am still deciding if it is an experience to be shared or to be kept privately as a wonderful moment that spoke to one or two souls in a personal way and left a lasting impression giving what was needed.  I have a feeling many people here wouldn't find it all that unusual, which is why I love this thread.  

Edited by Sol_y_Paz - 5/4/11 at 11:23am

[Sol_y_Paz]

Yummus, you have God.  The most powerful weapon you can possibly have.  God comes with a lot of other great stuff too.  I know you already know this, but it is worth bringing up again.  I suggest putting some Christian stuff in the home if you don't already have those things, crosses, etc.  Even better if they are blessed.  Have someone come to your house and bless your house, even if you don't go to their church many priests and leaders of the church will do this for families and I would also do a smudge with a Christian spin to help.  Have some key words, key powerful prayers, to say when you are scared.  

Go search a Christian book store, some have a decent selection on how to protect yourself from negative stuff.  

Start paying attention closely to the things you surround yourself with, flowers, sunshine, foods, music, media, prayers, light exercise, getting into nature, opening the windows for fresh air, all these play a role in our energy from day to day.  Become more aware of how synchronicity might play a role.  

There is a book by Cloud and Townsend called Boundaries.  It is a good read to check out.    

[Koalamom]

Oooh I am so wanting to read the gnostics. Does that have the book of enoch?

Thanks for the link, Maggie. We will see if my dial up internet lets me view the page...

Sol, you are welcome to share anything as we are the mystics mamas. Nothing is too far out for us!

I am finding great comfort in the book of John right now, Christs words are so powerful as if I am reading them for the first time.

[nicolelynn]

Bluebirdmama, the Book of Enoch is in the Coptic Orthodox Old Testament, but not in the Eastern Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant bibles. It is considered gnostic by those that rejected it, though the Copts assert they helped protect Christianity from gnosticism. At any rate, it is quoted ALL over the New Testament, even by Jesus, so I have no idea why we got rid of it! I am reading it online here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/index.htm. It makes sense, given there is little discussion of spirits, heaven, hell, cosmology etc in the OT, so what reference point did everyone have when Jesus started talking about them? The Book of Enoch, I now suppose.

In addition to just drinking up apocryphal and gnostic texts I, too am re-reading John and just reeling at how mystic it is and how the Church has hidden that aspect so well for so long. So many things that Jesus said that do not fit into our neat theologies:

"There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens EVERY man" John 1:9 and

"“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” John 3:21. Kinda flies in the face of Total Depravity and rather says that those who are practicing truth ARE on a path to God, and in fact their deeds are of God.

This is why John has always been set apart as not one of the three synoptic gospels, as it is SO different. So why did we accept that and reject the Gospel of Thomas? I don't know....

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by nicolelynn 

In addition to just drinking up apocryphal and gnostic texts I, too am re-reading John and just reeling at how mystic it is and how the Church has hidden that aspect so well for so long. So many things that Jesus said that do not fit into our neat theologies:

"There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens EVERY man" John 1:9 and

"“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” John 3:21. Kinda flies in the face of Total Depravity and rather says that those who are practicing truth ARE on a path to God, and in fact their deeds are of God.

This is why John has always been set apart as not one of the three synoptic gospels, as it is SO different. So why did we accept that and reject the Gospel of Thomas? I don't know....

Which Church are you speaking of?    Total depravity is definitely not something believed by a majority of Christians, thank God.  The Gospel of John was accepted because there is nothing in it which is untrue, and it was written by the Beloved Apostle (although parts were added later by others - these additions were deemed true and beneficial by the Church) who knew Jesus and witnessed His death and more importantly His resurrection.  The Gospel of Thomas, on the other hand, was not written by an apostle - it was written too late to be by anyone who was an eye-witness to the resurrection or who had known anyone who witnessed it.  There are some very good podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio that discuss why apocryphal books like this one were not accepted by the Church.  I can give you links if you want to hear the Church's reasoning. 

[nicolelynn]

I did do a bit of research, yes many scholars assert that the Gospel of Thomas was written later. But other scholars say it pre-dated the other gospels and was drawn from by the other gospels. Some even say John was written in redactionary criticism to the Gospel of Thomas. It is not so cut and dry, it all depends on who you want to believe. I no longer hold to the process of canonization or sola scriptura (which again, is huge and mind blowing for me since I was an evangelical missionary and went to a Bible school), so it matters little to me if the Gospel of Thomas was written later. I believe the same God continues to reveal to creation. From the bit I researched the Coptic Orthodox church doesn't even believe the canon is so rigid and closed as other churches do. Also, fact isn't quite so elevated in my mind anymore, mythology has power. That's just me, I respect where you are coming from.

As for John, I've never heard those two passages dealt with in Protesant/evangelical circles, I'm sure the Orthodox deal with it much better as they have a more mystical understanding. But it seems a jump for them even that John asserts that the True Light enlightens EVERY man, and not just those belonging to the Church. I could be wrong. I don't want to debate, I am just curious how the Orthodox handle these passages....

[holyhelianthus]

PurpleSage- I'm sure "the church" has their reasons for doing a number of things, that doesn't mean that these reasons are based on greater truth (or even historical truth) or that anyone has to agree with them. In my experience and the experience of many others "the church" (referring to Christianity in general and for me Mormonism is thrown is as that is my background) is invested in it's own form of truth, picking and choosing what is allowed to fall under that banner. Interestingly enough the only things that fall under "truth" are the things that support "the church's" claim to superiority "We know truth because we are truth." thus robbing the people of their connection to God. Though, of course, we are allowed just that little bit to keep us subdued. We can pray. And we can pray. Oh yes, and we can pray. But if we come to any other conclusion than what they have we are wrong and at worse it is satan doing a work in us. 

I seriously doubt that the Gospel of John is as infallible as you or the church claims. I also find it interesting that, as you said, the Gospel of Thomas has been rejected because it was written too late for any of it's authors to have viewed the actual crucifixion and resurrection or know anyone who did. Going off of this requirement for literal presence at any event or knowing someone who meets that standard I am wondering if "the church" has also rejected Genesis, Isaiah, Revelations, and the like. Because last I checked no one has been present at the apocalypse and besides Adam, Eve, the serpent, and of course God no one was present at the creation. And before you offer "oral tradition" or "written record" or even "divine inspiration" you might want to consider what that could mean for the Gospel of Thomas. 

What it comes down is that putting absolute faith in a fallible man and/or institution doesn't ring true for me. But take what I say with a grain of salt. I am someone who believes the Bible to be far more figurative than literal and that God is not omnipotent nor is He a micromanager.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by nicolelynn 

Also, fact isn't quite so elevated in my mind anymore, mythology has power. 

This is where I am right now. I completely agree. 

[holyhelianthus]

Kind of going along with this conversation I have been thinking a lot about the mysticism found in any given religion that is then rejected by the institution. Of course I have the most experience with Mormonism so I will go from there- Mormonism as a theology is extremely mystical. We even have a mystical history. And the LDS church has kept some mystical bits of our practices but for the most part these things have been rejected by the "official" church. I'm wondering why that is. Of course my knee jerk reaction is "the man wants to keep us down!" because that's just me but I also have been considering that it may be impossible for any institution to package mysticism. Meaning they don't preach it because at it's core it's impossible to preach. Of course this seems to have led to it's outright rejection in a culture where unless it is preached from the pulpit it's not gospel, not truth. But doesn't all of this have to be experienced for the most part? Anyhow, what I have been thinking on is maybe "the church" exists solely to provide us a foundation not to give us spiritual experience. That they think they are more than that is obvious but what do we want from humans? It just is what it is. Point being I am wondering if maybe I am being too quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater. My question for everyone is- in your mind does organized religion, religious institutions, have a place in greater spirituality? 

If nothing else is giving me lessons in humility and unconditional love. 

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by nicolelynn 

I did do a bit of research, yes many scholars assert that the Gospel of Thomas was written later. But other scholars say it pre-dated the other gospels and was drawn from by the other gospels. Some even say John was written in redactionary criticism to the Gospel of Thomas. It is not so cut and dry, it all depends on who you want to believe. I no longer hold to the process of canonization or sola scriptura (which again, is huge and mind blowing for me since I was an evangelical missionary and went to a Bible school), so it matters little to me if the Gospel of Thomas was written later. I believe the same God continues to reveal to creation. From the bit I researched the Coptic Orthodox church doesn't even believe the canon is so rigid and closed as other churches do. Also, fact isn't quite so elevated in my mind anymore, mythology has power. That's just me, I respect where you are coming from.

As for John, I've never heard those two passages dealt with in Protesant/evangelical circles, I'm sure the Orthodox deal with it much better as they have a more mystical understanding. But it seems a jump for them even that John asserts that the True Light enlightens EVERY man, and not just those belonging to the Church. I could be wrong. I don't want to debate, I am just curious how the Orthodox handle these passages....

I'm sorry, I don't want to debate, either.  I was just mentioning that because you wondered aloud (asked?) why the Church accepted the Gospel of John and not Thomas.  They have very specific reasons.  The series "Search the Scriptures" on Ancient Faith Radio is a very good resource for answering the Orthodox position on why certain books were canonized, among other things you seem to be curious about.  It's all free to listen to, if you're interested. 

[Sol_y_Paz]

Originally Posted by holyhelianthus 
in your mind does organized religion, religious institutions, have a place in greater spirituality? 

I think so, very much so.  Can you imagine if everyone in this thread got together every single week to talk about the aspects of Christianity that speak to us?  A short time weekly devoted only to growing and learning.  Some spiritual growth is facilitated by sharing with others and growing with others.  Some is personal and within ourselves, but some is also meant to be shared and built upon with others.  We all have different gifts and different understandings, each of us are blessed with different perspectives and certain knowledge.   

I have always been a part of clubs.  The main reason is getting together with like minded people is like a breath of fresh air to me.  Even though they may not agree on everything, they usually center around and mostly agree on one thing that means a lot to me and it is nice to be a part of a group like that.  

Today's churches are very formal to me and don't always teach me in the way I thirst for (this is where outside studies come in).  However, I do "get something" when in attendance.  I feel it is important, but not the most important thing.  Not by any means.  It is also sometimes hard to find a church to click with, I have never agreed with every aspect of any church I have been a part of, I don't think I ever will agree with everything.  But it isn't all or nothing with me. 

[Sol_y_Paz]

Originally Posted by Purple Sage 
  I was just mentioning that because you wondered aloud (asked?) why the Church accepted the Gospel of John and not Thomas.  They have very specific reasons.  The series "Search the Scriptures" on Ancient Faith Radio is a very good resource for answering the Orthodox position on why certain books were canonized, among other things you seem to be curious about.  It's all free to listen to, if you're interested. 

There is also a History Channel program called Banned From the Bible, which is an interesting show.  Not really deep in knowledge, but it is entertaining and a good light intro into some of the religious texts that didn't make it in. 

[Koalamom]

Originally Posted by holyhelianthus 

My question for everyone is- in your mind does organized religion, religious institutions, have a place in greater spirituality? 

If nothing else is giving me lessons in humility and unconditional love. 

I am just not sure now having been in the same religion my whole life. I am out now and when I think about joining another christian religion, I have been judged that my mysticism is anti christian and anti biblical. So now I am wondering if organized religion is judgmental no matter what because of the rules. I really want more christ based worship, but I may end up going to the UU church just because the word used to describe it is "LOVE". I have yet to go, but hope I am accepted and not judged. With all the judging, can we have "greater spirituality"?

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by holyhelianthus 

 My question for everyone is- in your mind does organized religion, religious institutions, have a place in greater spirituality? 

Yes!  (Keep in mind that what I'm writing are my thoughts - I'm surely not telling anyone else what to think.)

I've been a seeker for many, many years (not Christian for the vast majority of them) and I've found no greater mystical, spiritual experience of God than in what many would call an "organized religious institution."  Reading the lives of the saints and the wisdom and experience of monastics in various times and places, I find it impossible to say that this so-called organized religious "institution" precludes true mystical spiritual freedom.  I only hope to have a small taste of what these people have experienced.  I feel like I made my own confines by rejecting "organized religion" for so long.  The Truth will set you free - the hard part for me was realizing that the freedom I need is from my own ego and passions.  In my experience, the Church (I'm referring to Orthodoxy here, not any other church) is not a place where I'm required to turn my brain off at the door and accept blindly the dogma they preach.  What's the point of that?  That's not freedom, either.  The point of the Church is to provide the God-given tools to mystically, spiritually experience God - the entire purpose of our lives.  There are no words I can say that can do justice to what I've found there.  Suffice it to say, there is no element of "keeping the man down" or external control.  We create our own bondage by insisting that our will be done instead of God's.  

So that's my thoughts on the subject.  I'm sorry if it offends anyone.  I like this thread because I feel like Christianity is indeed mystical - there's no way around that!  I just hope that a more "traditional" voice can be added to the conversation without ruffling any feathers.  It's been my experience that insisting on a lack of dogma becomes a dogma of its own, and I hope that other views are welcome here, as well.