Healing Leaky Gut - Page 3

[Ravenlunatic]

I was wondering if anyone IS doing the GAPS diet?  I am.  I have a leaky gut and was GF & CF for many years, but it just wasn't enough.  Then I found 'Breaking the Viscious Cycle & 'Gut & Psycology Syndrome (sorry for my poor spelling).  Anyway, once I went on the SCD (Specific Carbohydrate Diet) also known as the GAPS diet my whole world changed.  The diet has proved to be so, so, so important.  I can't imagine ever eating any differently again.  This diet is the bomb. 

What I have learned and gone through:  IN my first year on SCD/GAPS I went through many trials of 'cheating' and wondering if I really needed to be on the full diet or if I could tolerate say peanuts or a slight bit of sugar once in awhile.  Well over the coarse of time the authors advise rings true.  FANATICAL ADHERENCE to the diet is necessary.  This IS true.  I am now in my second year and I fanatically adhere to the diet guidelines and have NO digestive issues at all.  This means that I am not further damaging my gut from ingesting anything 'illegal'.  This is 50% of the battle.

The other part 'healing the gut' comes into play with all of the other choices I make.  Mostly probiotics (mail order theraputic dose capsules), fermented veggies, homemade 24 hour goat yogurt (this stuff is gold), bone broth, CLO, and only 'legal' supplements (not too much)  What I have read is that it doesn't matter what supplements you take, if your gut is leaky you are not able to absorb most things anyway.

I recommend the GAPS diet to my friends who don't have health issues because it is really a great way to eat. Anyone else?

[KKKK74]

Sorry - we are not actually doing it yet but I do know that we need it for DS.

My major stopping points at the moment are 1) He is salicylate intolerant, alongside eggs (allergic), lactose and caesin (amongst others but these are the important ones for GAPS) - I am not sure how possible the diet is if you are sals intolerant ???

2) We live in a country where it is not possible to get organic bones for broth - the best we can do is antibiotic/hormone free chicken (the main body and bones only - no neck/feet etc). We have even been intouch with suppliers in Australlia about flying organic beef bones (we can only get grain fed not grass fed) directly to us - They are heavy and it is very expensive and they are not even grass fed! My son does not detox so giving him the pesticide ridden chicken bone broth may not be effective - we are doing it at the moment but I worry if we are doing as much harm as good ???

3) It is not possible to get organic goats milk at all where I live and the only organic cows milk available is ultra pasteurized. He would definately need to have the homemade yogurt as his intro to dairy but doing it with the ultra pasteurized cows milk may not be effective for him. I would of liked to do it with raw organic goats milk. ???

4) He is not detoxing and is heavy metal toxic - we are starting AC DMSA chelation with him. I would not want to take him off his many supplements while doing the chelation but I think the overload of supplements may be too much making the GAPS diet ineffective ???

If anyone can offer any advice on any of the above I would be grateful. I know he needs GAPS but I just don't know if we can do it in a 'pure' enough manner to make it worthwhile. Ravenlunatic please offer any opinions you have - I know you won't have answers but all opinions form people on the diet help.

Thanks

[Ravenlunatic]

Well, it's true, I can give you my advice, but of coarse I don't really know what the salicylate intolerance is let alone all the variables involved.  Nor do I know what foods it is in and so can't advise on the food list for this either, but

One question I have since I know the diet works is how do you know it is a salicylate intolerance and not something else entirely if your child still has some symptoms?  This is somewhat rhetorical in that I am playing the devils advocate. 

I know some folks do go 100% organic and that is how they have to do it, but I use regular store bought chicken for my bone broth (at least I have thus far but would like to go organic and can't because of cost).  I do use grass fed local beef bones for my beef broth, but I eat regular store bought beef all the time.  I think the healing properties of the broth for the gut are there.

Also I don't know what ultra pasterized means, but I think that the good stuff in the yogurt comes from the starter you use and of coarse the basic make up of the milk has to be there (protien et al).  But in the yogurt process you pasterize the milk before making it so I don't know that the milk needs to be raw to begin with.  I do understand your concerns as I go out of my way to get the raw goat milk before I make my yogurt, but not having the raw option would not prevent me from making the yogurt.  From what I know you pasterize the milk to get rid of all the live bacteria (good and bad) and then you add back in the good guys in the form of starter.  The starter bacteria then feed on the lactose (a big GAPS no no) and thus you get a really good gut healing lactose free yogurt that is easily digestible. 

What I would do is find out how much of GAPS food has the sals that you speak of and see if you can do it.  From my experience the healing comes from removing ALL the sources of 'food' for the bad bacteria that has permeated the entire intestinal tract and resides in the small intestine where the bad bacteria is never supposed to be.  I know in the lower bowel it is normal to have bad bacteria but in GAPS people the balance is way, way off.  Then with the diet and recommended suppliment protocol you can slowly but surely build back the integrity of the leaky gut, the inflammed malfunctioning small intestine and large intestine.  The 'food' for the bad bacteria is all the illegal food on the diet.  Whether it is something a GAPS person can't digest (and so enters the lower intestines undigested) or it may be the actual food (sugars and such) in the diet, it results in the bad bacteria continuing their rule of the digestive tract and the cycle continues forever.  You must try and remove the bad guys from the small intestine and it is slow, methodical work. 

The imbalance that results from this type of bacteria upset can also cause food intolerance and such.  This is why I question any other intolerance or toxic situation.  Anyway, I don't question you at all really.  I haven't any idea if the diet is right for you or not so take all of what I say with a grain of salt.

[audeesmom]

Ravenlunatic- do you know how to tell if increased bad behavior is because of die off or a new food intolerance?

Starting to ease into the gaps and will soon start stage 1 of the diet for myself and 7 YO.

[Ravenlunatic]

This is a tough question.  It actually didn't become completely clear to me until about 7 months in.  Partly because I wasn't completely educated and partly because it was impossible to tell. 

Basically for me, die off happened pretty continuously for 6 to 8 weeks.  I actually had reduced overall symptoms, but I got new die off symptoms (that I really didn't understand).  I got terrible migraine headaches, I felt much better much of the time but not always (and when you alter your diet so drastically you want results!).  My poop (sorry) was terribly wierd too.

Once I was able to watch what my body did over time (while on the diet... and then a cheat), it became more clear what was die off and what was aggravated system from food.  For instance there is a very specific fatigue that I can now recognize as an aggravation due to something I have eaten (as opposed to die off).

I did read about the sals intolerance in the GAPS book.  This is very important for you.  The author states that in many GAPS people it appears that they have a sals allergy because of the way the body processes phenols (sals are part phenols).  She goes on for quite a while describing very scientifically why GAPS kids are often mistaken for sals allergy.  ANd that once you go on GAPS and detox for some weeks the sals allergy (which isn't really an allergy at all) goes away.

Anyway, if you are having doubts about the sals intolerance your child has I would get the GAPS book and read it.  It is mind blowing how accurate it is for me.

I hope I answered your original question.

[KKKK74]

Sorry  - I've been off on a another tangent the last few days !

Ravenlunatic - thanks it's given me alot to think about.

I have read the GAPS book and what she says about sals - I think my worry is/was that he has responded so well to the sals free diet that we are just scared to add the sals in. That said having watched him pick the rice pasta only out of his pasta and meat sauce for lunch and dinner for the last 5 days, after rice pops for breakfast (with rice milk) and rice crackers for snack (!!!) I know we have to change something ! We are doing alot of work with his sulphation pathway stuff as well so hopefully that will help him to tolerate the sals more anyway.

The most helpful for me is what you said about doing the diet it without going organic and using regular milk. I still would obviously have a preference for organic - particularly for my son who does not detoxify properly. But I think we need to start in whatever way we can. Hopefully now we are doing chelation, liver repair, and methylation supplementation he should be able to detoxify more anyway.

My issue with the raw goats milk is that raw milk has more enzymes to help you digest it and the goats milk will probably be better tolerated by him. As my son is lacking in digestive enzymes this would obviously be preferable for him - I think though we will give it a go with the pasteurized milk and just add in high doses of enzyme supplement and see. Not sure - will need to do more reading on that one.  

Now my only issue is baby number 2 is due in 2 weeks and I have no idea how I'll find the energy for all this !

Audeesmum - we are constantly struggling with the same issues - for us it is - what is a new intolerance, what is die off and also what is SPD/autism type behavior caused by the high metals etc. - and also what is just being 2 1/2 and having a slight flu type bug !! I don't have the answer but can just tell you what I do - if we've introduced/increased a new supplement I initially withdraw/reduce it to see if symptoms reduce - if they do I then reintroduce the supplement about 10 days later but on a much lower dose and increase it much more gradually and evaluate from there. If after removing the supplement nothing changes I tend to assume it is a food intolerance - go into denial for a week or so, get depressed and then start a new elimination diet ! Sorry I can't help more. It is so frustrating that all symptoms are basically the same !

[kati_kati]

Hi Kate - did the baby arrive?? I just realized it must be about now! Wishing you all the best for a wonderful labor and delivery!

My DS is in diapers too - why does that stop you getting a stool sample? It's even easier! Just get it before he sits in it and just take some from the middle somewhere, or the side that's touching his skin. We did a comprehensive stool analysis and it showed presence of clostridium. There were no other bad organisms (no yeast either, thankfully) but lactobacillus was low, and the dr wanted us to do herbal treatment (oregano, curcumin and thyme) to kill the clostridium. We still haven't done it but will start soon. I totally hear you on all the different supplements and timings - I hate it. The herbal stuff is supposed to be 30 mins before breakfast and dinner and it tastes bad. Now how are we supposed to manage that one...

I'm sorry you're still struggling so much with your DS but you are learning so much and it's great you're doing this now instead of later! Thanks for posting those book titles. I really need to do some reading because I can't answer anyone's questions here because I don't understand enough yet.
 

Originally Posted by KKKK74 

Kati - how do you know clostridium is a problem ? We have never actually tested him for yeast or bacteria or parasites - mainly because we can't get a 'clean' stool sample as he's still in nappies, and I haven't got the energy to try and get one. We are just diagnosing him through symtoms. It's pretty obvious that yeast at least is a problem.

The trouble is if we go as slowly as recommended it is going to be a months before we have him on all the supplements he needs. That said I am starting to worry that we have him on too much at the moment, but he needs everyone of them for different things - it's a nightmare just remembering to give them all at there specified times and away from food other supplements etc.

[KKKK74]

No baby yet - 41 weeks now, but just found out my doctor let another friend go to 44 weeks !!! so maybe a while yet. DS was induced at 42 weeks but I'm going to try and hold out a bit longer with this one if possible - not sure I'll wait till 44 weeks though ! I'll message more gut stuff later when I've got more time ! x

Edited by KKKK74 - 8/18/11 at 5:43am

[kati_kati]

sending you good labor vibes!! relax and get ready... try acupuncture maybe if you haven't yet?  (mine was 42 weeks and induced too btw.)

[jeffreylee]

Originally Posted by KKKK74 

Hi

Is anyone else trying to heal a leaky gut at the moment and interested in sharing some ongoing discussions about it?

These links are great so I'm going to add them at the beginning of this thread.

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1096747/where-to-start-help-101 

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/434071/healing-the-gut-tribe-cheat-sheet#post_4893042 

I'll write up more details of my son's history later. I hope there are some others keen to join the discussion - it would be great if we could get a group like the old 'healing the gut tribe' going.

Thanks for the link ..Its very help full to others 

[anjsmama]

I want to rejuvenate this thread... anyone still out there?! Or anyone healed? 

I am working on healing my gut and my DS, who turns 3 on Wednesday. I'm 22, but I think I've been under about 8 years of really severe damage, if I'm thinking of things right. DS & I both have celiac disease, and I'm quite sure I also have yeast overgrowth right now. In fact if I had to guess I think I have just about every systemic issue out there... ... Don't think the walls of my intestine even exist anymore! I began my adult life somewhere around 145 lbs and am now down to 112 lbs without ever trying to lose weight (in fact, I think I take in approx 3500 calories per day..) so I clearly have malabsorption issues. I am also nursing my 6-month DD and she's starting to have awful smelling frothy stools so I know my bad flora is affecting my poor baby . 

I was completely clueless about everything (EVERYTHING. food & otherwise) until 1.5 years ago and I am still learning so much everyday that just makes me . It is such a shame that American medicine/healthcare is so incompetent and I feel like everything I've ever been told in my life is a lie, and all of those lies were followed by something like, "But we don't really know." So I'm working on knowing, and healing. I do about an hour of research per night, which is cake since my restlessness/anxiety keeps me up constantly.............

SO I'm doing good (I think) with food changes, I'm on candida diet, and we're GF anyway. I am learning how to make kefir, and drinking some already-made stuff in the mean time. I'm curious about how you all get tested for all these different things (parasites, bacteria levels, etc) ... Do you just show up at the doc's and say, Check my intestines please? I want to get started with bone broth and some vitamin/mineral supplementation since I know that I'm malnourished, and I'm getting really worried about DS, though he's keeping up with his growth, he is covered in random bruising and has really bad dark circles under his eyes as well as abnormal stools. How can I be sure which changes are safe for nursing mothers? Any resources would be greatly appreciated! (I am also going through all the links on mothering's previous Gut Healing discussions....) 

[KKKK74]

Still here - and very glad to rejuvenate the thread.

I've had the baby - she's nearly 5 weeks old already - a girl. She's also gluten intolerant so we'll probably be around for a while longer !

Post more later.

K

[KKKK74]

I thought I would re-cap what we are doing at the moment to heal DS's leaky gut (he is 3 years old).

We have removed all of the foods he is allergic / intolerant to

We have removed all foods that encourage yeast (candida diet)

We have removed all saliclylate food apart from those which are negligable

Having tested him for heavy metal toxicity we have started AC chelation to remove mercury and other metals he is high in

After a full blood test we are mega supplementing him in the many vitamins/minerals he is deficiant in 

We are mega dosing probiotics

We have started him on cyto flora and liver life

We are doing Epsom baths daily to help with the phenol issues

He is taking L-Glutamine

He takes digestive enzymes with everything he eats

We do clay baths weekly to draw out the metals

Nystatin when he is on chelation round to minimise yeast

Things I am hoping implementing soon/may look at in the future

no phenol enzymes (with medium phenol foods to try and re-introduce them and also seperate from food for yeast control)

full stool analysis - to assess digestion/parasites/yeast/bacteria etc

reintroduce coconut oil (at a lower dose and with no-phenol enzymes hopefully he can tolerate it)

re-try fermented food 

re-try keffir

re-try edible clay

cell salts

SCD/GAPS diet

I know there is more to add to both lists but it's a starting point anyway. Would love to chat to anyone doing any of the above or any new ideas. Also very happy to chat more to anyone who would like to more about anything in the list above - I am definately not an expert but I have learnt a lot in the last few months since starting this thread !

Edited by KKKK74 - 8/18/11 at 5:45am

[anjsmama]

My DS is 3 also. We are currently on GAPS diet. He is taking probiotics, enzymes and doing epsom salt baths.  Yeast isn't nearly as much of an issue with him as it is for me and my (6 month, breastfed) DD. I'm in a die-off since starting GAPS and probiotics and it STINKS. It's  hard to think long term when my head is pounding like this! DS however seems to be coming through it. His first few days on the diet were awful, and then gradually he seems better and better. His nutrient levels are actually pretty decent, and I assume this is because I caught this degeneration pretty early in him (about 6 months in) and pretty late in me (about 6 years in). I sort of wish I were a child.....

I'm looking to start coconut oil, cod liver oil, and making kefir (need to get grains...?). We're using plain organic kefir from Trader Joe's right now. Actually I'm looking at about a million things, but this is where my focus is right now.... 

Congratulations! How is your babe doing?

[flightgoddess]

Ditto the L-glutamine supplement, also probiotics, omega/fish oils, any vitamins/minerals you are currently deficient in.

When I went gluten free to heal my gut, I also stopped dairy. Many people with gut damage from gluten also have issues with dairy, but dairy can often be consumed again after the gut has healed. I currently have no problem with probiotic dairy and unhemogenized dairy. (I still feel funny after 'regular' milk though.)

[KKKK74]

Flightgoddess - is there a particular time of day  / with/ without food etc that you are supposed to take the L-glutamine ? I know it makes some children hyper so we were doing it in the morning but as he has so much to take first thing I'd like to trial giving it after lunch - as far as you know does it make any difference whether it is given with or without food etc ?

Anjsmama - baby is good thanks. Although you forget how busy newborns keep you !

Thanks

K

[KKKK74]

Anjsmama - How are you finding GAPS diet - did you start on stage 1 ? How long did you do stage 1 for ? Did your son do stage 1 ?

We got a stool sample kit from our doctor and when I get a sample I return it and he will do the parasite/yeast/bacteria etc test. We live in Singapore though and our doctors are more like private doctors so I am not sure if it would be the same where you are.

Not sure about the nursing mother's thing but it's something I need to find out more about as well. Do you know if Mercury is an issue for you ?

I need to continue going through the old threads as well - how far have you got ? I admit I only got through the first one and maybe not all of that. I am going to start them again and take notes, I may even post the most significant stuff here to help everyone else.  

I tried the water keffir with my son but stopped as I couldn't get an accurate idea of the alcohol content. Also my keffir grew out of control and I struggled keeping it going and then I killed it when I went away and stayed longer than I expected. I hope to start again soon. Are you doing the milk or water one ?

[mylilmonkeys]

Well, this thread is a bit old, but maybe folks will be interested in reviving it?  I have IBS, and am doing an GF/CF trial to see if it helps.  I know I have issues with dairy, and have had them since I was 9/10? yo.  I have been on milk and off milk.  I seem to handle it okay for awhile and then all goes bad, but when I'm not on it I get constipated, or I'm always constipated and dairy will give me diarrhea.  My bowels seem to move better when I'm pregnant, and I have really minimized carbs while pregnant for the last several babies, so I'm thinking there may be a wheat thing going on.  It's worth finding out.  I also have low blood sugar issues, which I think a high protein, nutrient dense diet benefits, anyway.  I had some serious issues with ductal yeast a year and a half ago, and I had a GBS+ UTI while pregnant with the twins a year ago, so I'm pretty sure my gut flora is just really off.  I was on dairy kefir for awhile, not knowing about water kefir.  I will be ordering a batch of water kefir grains tomorrow and am excited to try that out.  DH is going to try it with me.  He's been really supportive, which is big because he does most of the grocery shopping and a lot of the cooking.  Oh, and I've been doing some ACV in water in the am and pm to try to begin killing off whatever is in my gut and hopefully replace with the probiotics from the kefir.  I am on day 3 of GF/CF and am feeling rather less bloated, but my bowels still aren't moving.  I eat a lot of veg and I can feel where it's blocked up.  Sometimes massaging my gut will help.  

Also, I haven't decided yet whether to put the kids on the diet with me.  They are all pretty healthy, no dark circles or anything, but they can be emotional and whiny.  I'm wondering if it might help.  But, on the other hand, my boys are all in school and on the free lunch program.  It would be a huge ordeal to try to get them GF/CF at school, and I wouldn't be able to afford to send that much food to school with them.  I guess I'll just wait to see how well it goes for me first.

[mylilmonkeys]

Day 4 - Yesterday I noticed that my sense of smell seems much more acute.  Last night and this morning, I also noticed that my ears are more open and draining properly.  I have had a constant stuffiness in my ears that I have noticed since I started chiropractic care and they opened after an adjustment, and my sinuses seem more open.  Interesting.  I have noticed a few patches of skin that have raised bumps, not exactly itchy or red, but I wonder if it will develop into anything.  I'm also wondering if I might have a corn sensitivity as well, as after I ate a bowl of gluten free corn chex this am my ears stuffed up  more again.  Don't know, and I really hope not because that is going to be very limiting and confuse poor dh even more when he tries to shop for me.  Poor thing already didn't realize that flour tortillas wouldn't be gluten free.    Thank goodness we did have corn tortillas in the house.  So far, I am not feeling too terribly deprived, but last night at dinner was a little rough as the pkg of mexican rice we normally eat had wheat in it, and the refried beans had a warning that it could be contaminated with wheat.  We're working our way through learning which brands are ok and which are not, and I have to teach dh what to look for on labels.  We'll plan our next week shopping trip together on Sunday and that will help.  For now I'm just doing the best with what we have.  

[TaraM74]

Spelt has gluten in it. Have you checked out your sons blood type from eat right for your  blood type diet? If he's off gluten just make sure you're not accidentally dosing him with it. For instance oats are normally processed with wheat and will get contaminated but will not say anything about how it's processed on the labels. Bob's Mill brand has gluten free oats. Anyway, hope you get this.