Touring a Montessori school tomorrow - what should I look for?

[Galatea]

I have been obsessing about ds1's education for months now.  Summary: we removed him from PS after winter break b/c he was not being challenged, and have been attempting to HS, but it is not going well.  Not fights or anything, but I worry about all the things he is missing (art class, lots of other kids, being around less linear and concrete thinkers like me...)  It is to the point where I obsess about it constantly.  I have decided to seek out more information on other school options.  To this end, I have scheduled an appointment tomorrow morning to tour one of the two local Montessori schools (ages 2.7-13.)  Any tips on what I should look for in terms of being suitable for a gifted, social, artistic child?

[RiverTam]

1.  Is the school certified by AMI or AMS? The AMI certification is stricter. They should at a minimum have an AMS certification.

2. Are the lead teachers all AMI or AMS certified? Do the lead teachers have education degrees or state teacher certifications? Private schools don't have to teachers with either AMI/AMS certification or state certification to operate. I'd want one or the other, at a minimum. 

I never again want to work with a teacher who isn't state certified or AMI certified. My son is 2E (gifted and language disorder). If a teacher or staff person isn't certified, I can almost guarantee DS will have a problem with that person. It's like clockwork.  It doesn't matter how often I explain the cause of DS's trouble in understanding verbal instructions to a non-certified teacher/staff person, they insist on seeing him as willful, and won't redirect him appropriately. The whole idea that he is gifted and can't listen just doesn't click for them.

3. What are the procedures if a child hits the ceiling on materials in a particular classroom? Are they allowed to borrow materials? Do they visit upper grades? Do they grade skip?

4.  What are the procedures for kids who hit the ceiling on the materials in the upper grades? What do they do to keep those kids engaged?

5.  How much Montessori curriculum and materials do they use in the elementary grades? 

6. What is the discipline procedure? What types of problems do they see their kids have?

7. What do they do with kids who aren't taking advantage of a child-led curriculum?

8. Do they do any type of standardized testing to measure outcomes for children from year to year? (Our school does Iowa Basics, starting in first grade.)

We've been at an AMI school for four years. We're leaving Montessori to go to a traditional public school next year. (DS1 = K-3; DS2 PreK-K) DS1 is 2E. DS2 is gifted. If we don't get better outcomes in traditional, we will go back to Montessori, but we think both kids need more structure. I think my kids need a teacher-led classroom, even if they're not getting as much enrichment as they might at Montessori. They're both screwing around a lot.  I'm not comfortable with the amount of work they're doing. I don't think that they are challenged in most subjects, with the exception of math. They have both pushed the Montessori math curriculum as far as it will go at their grade level, and aren't getting much continued benefit out of it. DS1 is ready for algebra and they're not prepared to teach it. DS2 is in K and is ready for 4th grade math, and he's not getting it. Three grade skips in a subject is beyond what our school will do. (The Montessori math curriculum is outstanding, BTW. Heavy on hands-on lessons and theory. I love it.)  My other problem is that I'm concerned that DS2 doesn't like to read and isn't being pushed to practice reading. I know the lower el teacher at our school won't push him.

For our family, Montessori was useful as a short-term measure, but not "the answer" to all of our problems. It was helpful, but not perfect.

[physmom]

We asked some pretty pointed questions when we visited DD's montessori school because DD is a native English speaker and her school has required English classes starting at age 3.  I can only imagine how painful that would be for her because the other kids will be learning "cat" and "dog" and she's been speaking in full sentences for a long while now. Plus we saw a videos of the English teacher in action and she has a huge accent.  We knew that whatever school we sent her to this would be an issue but what we liked about DD's school is that they said they would be happy to move her to the higher age group or even 2 higher (her school goes up to 9th grade and everyone is age groups spanning 3 years).  They also were open to us bringing our own materials for her to read during that period. 

We've asked them questions too about math since DD appears to be ahead in that too and they said that they'd be happy to bring material from higher age groups to her or if she needed it they'd move her to the higher age group. 

One thing that really helped with our decision is the vibe we got from the director.  She was really excited about what DH and I do for a living (we're scientist) and said that she had a daughter who went into biochem and another who is a doctor.  She also didn't seemed scared off by intelligence and was excited about it. 

As for art, our school had a lot of art work displayed everywhere so that was probably a good sign. The kids were allowed to talk amongst themselves whenever they want so that's another good sign. 

Now, I can't say if this will be a prefect fit up until 9th grade but we're very excited about it for now. Most likely DD will actually start tomorrow and from there we'll see how it goes.

[Galatea]

The school and teachers are AMS as well as state-certified.

I did ask about what happens if the child "finishes" what the classroom has, and in the lower el, they said they would borrow materials from the upper el.  In the upper el, the teacher didn't seem to think that this would happen.  Though I liked this upper el teacher, it did make me nervous.  They had a sign with reading group sign-ups in the upper el, and the hardest books on the list were Harry Potter.  If this had been me, I would have read HP long before upper el.  When pressed, he said that even if you had read a book before, it would still be good to read it again in school reading group, b/c you would get something different out of it in discussing it and doing the captain, etc. role-thing they do.  I don't know how I feel about that.  The school currently ends at 6th year, though they are contemplating going through 8th by parent request.

They had TONS of Montessori materials in all grades.  This is a very wealthy community and you can tell from the materials.  They appear to not be hard-line Montessori in that they started the day in lower el with a 20 minute "lesson" in one of the cultural studies area, and then broke up for their works.  But then the works were all Mont.  I asked what would they do if the child seemed to understand the abstraction before doing the concrete operation, and the upper el teacher said he would say, "Ok, you can do it that way, but then let's look at the manipulative, too, to see *why* it works."  This satisfied me.

I don't even think being gifted would matter for a long time in this school, b/c the work that all the kids are doing is sufficiently rigorous for my taste.  Our blue ribbon PS in the same community doesn't even compare.  That made us sad - that truly, the rich just get a better education, period.  In fact, the whole school made dh and me sad that we didn't have this as children (and I even went to excellent private schools.)

They do standardized tests to see if the school as a whole is not doing as good a job in any area.  They have PT meetings 3 times a year, and they do some standardized testing practice with the children toward the end of the year so that the kids at least know how to do multiple choice tests.

I did not ask about discipline - prolly b/c I was so dazzled by how polite and well-behaved the children were!  In the children's house, they did have a quiet area, not for time outs, but for a child who needed some peace and quiet.  I know ds2 would love that. 

They said that they work with the child to develop a plan for their works for the week, and then progressively allow more freedom.  If the child is not staying on task, or using the materials appropriately (children's house), or completing on time (upper el), it is the child's way of telling them that he is not ready yet, and needs more guidance.

The school was absolutely lovely - it is in a converted indoor arena, so the outside edges have the classrooms, and then they have this whole indoor arena for the physical activities and to put on art shows, etc.  The children were so polite and quiet, and the teachers were all very sweet.  What interested me was that the former head of the lower school for the best private school in our city and a parent from that same school both worked there as teacher and director.  I think that is a fabulous testimonial!  Our only reservation is the cost, and for me, the fact that many of the students came from very wealthy families.  I grew up in this community and know how some of the lifestyles of the rich and famous socialization can be, and we are not rich, and so it worries me a bit (don't want our kids to become snotty, or be constantly asking for activities that we simply cannot afford.)

[physmom]

Originally Posted by Galatea 

I did ask about what happens if the child "finishes" what the classroom has, and in the lower el, they said they would borrow materials from the upper el.  In the upper el, the teacher didn't seem to think that this would happen.  Though I liked this upper el teacher, it did make me nervous.  They had a sign with reading group sign-ups in the upper el, and the hardest books on the list were Harry Potter.  If this had been me, I would have read HP long before upper el.  When pressed, he said that even if you had read a book before, it would still be good to read it again in school reading group, b/c you would get something different out of it in discussing it and doing the captain, etc. role-thing they do.  I don't know how I feel about that.  The school currently ends at 6th year, though they are contemplating going through 8th by parent request.

I guess, worry about that when the times comes.  Even if the school is only a good fit for a couple of years that's a couple of years where you found a good fit for your kids. After that you can reevaluate and switch schools if needed.   Also if they are adding more upper grades that might make that a lot easier too.  Plus once they get to know your kids more they might very well be able to work with them and get more appropriate materials (especially if it's a wealthy school). 

Originally Posted by Galatea 

I don't even think being gifted would matter for a long time in this school, b/c the work that all the kids are doing is sufficiently rigorous for my taste.  Our blue ribbon PS in the same community doesn't even compare.  That made us sad - that truly, the rich just get a better education, period.  In fact, the whole school made dh and me sad that we didn't have this as children (and I even went to excellent private schools.)

...

The school was absolutely lovely - it is in a converted indoor arena, so the outside edges have the classrooms, and then they have this whole indoor arena for the physical activities and to put on art shows, etc.  The children were so polite and quiet, and the teachers were all very sweet.  What interested me was that the former head of the lower school for the best private school in our city and a parent from that same school both worked there as teacher and director.  I think that is a fabulous testimonial!  Our only reservation is the cost, and for me, the fact that many of the students came from very wealthy families.  I grew up in this community and know how some of the lifestyles of the rich and famous socialization can be, and we are not rich, and so it worries me a bit (don't want our kids to become snotty, or be constantly asking for activities that we simply cannot afford.)

I can definitely relate to this.  DH and I both grew up poor and have been at the lower end of the income spectrum for pretty much ever.  Now with our new jobs we can afford DD's school and it just feels weird.  I also worry about DD growing up with richer classmates and how that will affect her. 

Where we live schools are very much you get what you pay for.  Even low income families send their kids to private schools here so they have a ton of private schools but that means many are just not that good too so you really have to look to find a good one (and normally it carries a hefty price tag!).  It's sad the difference in the quality of education you can get with or without money (and here there are no scholarships to go to private school).  That being said DH grew up locally and didn't got to a rich school and still did well for himself.  On the other hand, he had many friends who have not "lived up to their potential" and are consequently depressed because they are unhappy with their work (it's really scary how many smart guys he was friends with who are now on depression meds for work related reasons).
 

[RiverTam]

Awesome!

It sounds like a good fit for your child.

Re. the reading groups.  It probably is helpful to reread books in reading groups. The upper el at our Montessori reading group does extensive work with understanding theme, symbolism, plot and characterization in ways that I really didn't touch until high school. It's pretty advanced stuff for 4-6 graders.

[musikat]

The cool thing about Montessori materials is that they can often be used in more than one way, so even if the child goes through all the "lessons" there may be things the teacher can do to go forward still using the materials. For example, my son is in first grade in a 1-3 grade class. He finished all the grammar boxes (identifying parts of speech in sentences) in the first two months of school, but when I went to P/T conferences last month his teacher showed me how she had been giving him whole poems to diagram with the materials instead. It is more challenging, but still uses the same skills and reinforces the material. She said she is continually looking for new ways to keep him challenged, which I so appreciated. So far I love this class and this teacher! On the other hand, in primary, although I loved his teacher, she was much more strict about lessons, and how frequently to give new ones and how much "practice" before moving on. By Kindergarten he was frustrated and bored and started acting out. This year, when I told his teacher in week two that he had been talking about wanting to learn long division she immediately said she would introduce it and see how he did (and she did, the very next day). The key in what to look for is to make sure the teacher is open to that as a concept and doesn't have the rigid idea that each material must be presented in a specific order regardless of the child's ability.

[Tigerle]

Originally Posted by musikat 

 The key in what to look for is to make sure the teacher is open to that as a concept and doesn't have the rigid idea that each material must be presented in a specific order regardless of the child's ability.

Ditto this.

DS is in a play-based preschool (the local Montessori preschool wasn't a good fit for us) and in a once-weekly K program at the local Montessori grade school which we are considering sending him to for lower el. While I appreciate the enthusiasm Montessori teachers and parents have for the method, I have encountered a kind of religious "what we are doing the way we are doing it is exactly the perfect way for exactly every kid" stance. However, with a very unusual kid sometimes you need unusual ways! Teachers DS clicks with best are teachers who are ready to be flexible, make an effort to understand his ways and second-guess their own established ways of doing things (I don't mean just M teachers, that goes for his playbased school too).. Basically, be truly child-led!

Are you comfortable going in and saying "I think/we know our child is gifted?" (I can't remember what kind of test-scores you have, if any).

I have found that most people on this board recommend just sending the child and letting the teachers find out for themselves what the kid can do but I think in vetting a school for whether it is a good place for our kids the question whether they are comfortable with giftedness as a concept is important(after all, some people don't believe it even exists, as in "all our kids are gifted!"). DS appears wildly asynchronous so what I'll want to know most about a school is whether they can work with this particular combination of socio-emotional and gross-motor challenges and verbal and cognitive gifts, so in our case I feel mentioning those gifts must be part of the conversation. I feel I'd rather find out upfront what people think about it - if they get that "one of THOSE moms" face, I know it's probably not a good place for us. (I hope that at this particular school I actually don't have to come up with it myself, because DS will have shown what he can do in the K program, but that's not true for other schools we will be looking at).

Apart from those two considerations, I really like RiverTam's list - I think I will make a printout l to take to our conference next year if we decide to apply! From what I remember in your posts, those two might be crucial for your comfort:

7. What do they do with kids who aren't taking advantage of a child-led curriculum?

8. Do they do any type of standardized testing to measure outcomes for children from year to year? (Our school does Iowa Basics, starting in first grade.) 

Good luck!

Edited by Tigerle - 3/18/11 at 3:41am

[Galatea]

You know, I haven't had any of my kids tested.  I have so many swirling emotions surrounding that... I'm still so deep in my own processing/grieving and am still so confused that I don't know what to do.

[joensally]

Originally Posted by Galatea 

You know, I haven't had any of my kids tested.  I have so many swirling emotions surrounding that... I'm still so deep in my own processing/grieving and am still so confused that I don't know what to do.

I really get this.  I didn't want to test as I worried about my reactions to the numbers.  I found out my IQ as an adult and it messed with my head for a little while.  I had a better schooling experience than my kids have to date, and don't actually have a whole lot of baggage (about that anyway!).  But I haven't been able to find a good fit for my kids, and testing has helped open doors and to add legitimacy to the discussion.  I have to say that knowing the numbers hasn't really changed anything for me - they're just my kids, and their actual needs weren't changed by knowing the numbers.