If she can't nurse, then she simply won't sleep WWYD?

[kdescalzi]

I mamas,

I am at loss on how to proceed with nightweaning my 22mo dd. I am trying to follow the Jay Gordon method and the first 3 nights went really well. Once we were supposed to stop nursing all together for the 7 hours it all went bad. She gets sad and then really mad and then because she can't nurse she is simply awake ALL NIGHT LONG. She can't settle without nursing. She has no self soothing skills. If I try to cuddle and sing to her or talk lovingly to her she gets angry and tells me not to touch her. She flops all over the bed half crying, half making up songs and asking for a snack. She may sleep in 10min intervals but is essentially awake until early morning when the 7 hours are up. Should I just keep going?? Will she eventually get so tired over the days that she will go back to sleep?? Or should I decrease the hours of no-nursing? Please help I am so scared to go to bed tonight. I am just so tired and I can't keep going like this.

[D_McG]

I would stop nursing at night altogether (not just for 7 hours). I think the 7 hour thing is confusing and too tempting for them. Then I'd just kind of pretend to be asleep. Minimal interaction with her. Give it a week or so and then reevaluate.

[zoe77]

Can your partner help?  I found after the first two phases that my husband had to completely take over the night parenting.  I still can't go in or he will want to nurse.  But we don't co-sleep.  If you co-sleep that probably won't work.  Hope it gets better!!  One piece of advice I've read and took to heart was that once you make the decision to night wean you have to keep going.  If you go back and forth they will just get really confused and it will just get harder to do.

[kdescalzi]

thank you for the replies. I think that taking away her boops as well as her mama at night would be too traumatic for her. My dh is willing to take over at night but she freaks out if she can't be with me. She gets so upset without me, I don't see her ever settling down. I wonder if copying the first 3 nights of his plan for awhile might help. My main reason for wanting to nw was because she wants to be attatched to me all night long. Maybe I have to go in smaller steps?? Start with her getting used to not sleeping on my nipple all night and then go from there. My girl is very persistant and is a nurse-aholic. I don't think going cold turkey would work for her or me for that matter. Any advice or tips on this painful journey will be greatly appreciated.

[Bird Girl]

"My girl is very persistant and is a nurse-aholic."

I think this is why you have to go "cold turkey." She doesn't want to negotiate to get part of what she wants--she wants it all, and right now, darnit!  Remember that crying in bed with mommy or daddy is not the same as crying alone in room down the hall. You're not making her cry, you're allowing her to express her frustration. It's OK for a toddler to be frustrated--hell, if I were trapped in that clumsy little body with not much ability to say what I wanted I would be frustrated too.

She's old enough to learn some new methods of soothing herself to sleep--you need to sleep through the night, and so does she. You're the adult, it's OK for you to decide that now is the time. Make the rule clear (no nursing in bed, or no nursing after bedtime) and enforce it, calmly and respectfully. Then allow her to have her own emotions about that. She may decide that she really prefers to sleep alone, now that the all-night-milk-bar has closed. That's OK too.

The worst thing for both of you is if you go back and forth. Then you'll teach her that all she needs to do is scream hysterically for X number of hours/nights/weeks and then she'll get what she wants. Don't teach her that lesson! If you are there, available for other methods of soothing, then eventually, she will give in. You are the parent, she is the child. You are making a decision regarding the sleep that your whole family needs--she's not capable of deciding that at this age. Stick to your guns, and eventually, you'll have a well-rested, more pleasant child and you'll be ready to do more fun things with her, since you'll be well-rested, too.

[AislinCarys]

I don't agree with the previous poster. We tried nightweaning in June with our then 28 month old, and it back-fired. First it went fine for the first three nights, then she started waking more and more often, and staying awake longer, crying the whole time (like 6-8 times a night, and awake 30-50 min a time). And she started waking at dawn (rather than 8ish), eager for her first feed (when the sun's up). We decided after 10 days or so that this wasn't working for us, and went with the option that gave us all the most sleep: She got to feed to sleep, which mostly, especially with nightwakings, is very quick. But she didn't get to suck in her sleep, I ease out as soon as possible, patting, whispering "time to come off and go to sleep".

I don't agree with all this "you are the parent, she has to learn to self soothe", it is just the same old story as with CIO, where parents try to control their babies and little children. "You need this, because I say so, and I am the parent". I believe babies and children have needs, and over time they will come to not need it, But I don't think it is necessary to force them before they are ready.

DD is sleeping much better now, btw. She mostly sleeps through, or wakes once and quickly feeds back to sleep. And her dad can put her to bed at night, which wasn't possible a year ago. She's getting there.

That said, you can definitely put some limits on your breastfeeding relationship. Help her not to sleep on the nipple all night. Do you think that might work for a while?

[meemee]

at this point you have to figure out whose need is greater? yours or hers. 

and then proceed from there.

is your dd v. sensitive and has a greater understanding of the world than other 22 month old kids?

i tried nw for just one night. and i realised just how important it was for dd to nurse. she was so traumatized that it shocked me. 

i am sooo thankful she guided me as to what was best for her. looking back i realised how emotionally soothing nursing was for her. it was like therapy. even though my milk dried up seh didnt give up at 3.

like pp pointed out, if she is having such a hard time perhaps its better to try later. the time from about 18 months to 2 is a huge time for changes and more emotional situations. all those milestones take a toll on our children making them insecure. for many like my dd she felt secure thru nursing.

however if nursing is turning you into an impatient frustrated mom then you will need ur dh's help.   

[ssh]

Why did you decide to nightwean? Also I agree with the previous poster about figuring out whose need is more important. My DD mostly nightweaned herself, sleeping 9 hours between nursing, after all her teeth were in at age 2.5. She completely weaned herself right before turning 4., then started sleeping alone shortly after. From then on she sleeps 10 hours, is up about 14 and then sleeps again. We have no sleep issues at all, and no anxiety about going to bed. I feel nightnursing and co-sleeping was an investment in her mental and emotional health and in our now silent peaceful nights.

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by AislinCarys 

I don't agree with all this "you are the parent, she has to learn to self soothe", it is just the same old story as with CIO, where parents try to control their babies and little children. "You need this, because I say so, and I am the parent". I believe babies and children have needs, and over time they will come to not need it, But I don't think it is necessary to force them before they are ready.

I think you missed the point. She (and I) are not saying 'you have to self soothe' it's 'you have to not nurse'. There are a million ways to be soothed without nursing. CIO is putting a baby in a room and walking out. Lying with a toddler and saying 'no nursing' but being open to any other kind of soothing is completely different.

By the time I weaned my kids there was no possible way I could continue nursing at night. I mean I know people here will lie there and meditate to get through the feelings of repulsion. Or get a mother's helper so they can nap during the day and keep up nursing their toddlers at night. But to me that is completely ludicrous. If it works for you, great. But at the end of the day I AM the mother. And I DO know what we all need to sleep. If the mom has outgrown the ability to sleep through nursing then I don't see how it's even suggested that she keep nursing at night. Nighttime is for sleeping. We all go through the horrors of baby sleep. But this is a toddler. And at night, she has to sleep. If everyone can nurse and sleep at the same time? Awesome. But I know I personally lose that ability after the first year. And really I'm supposed to keep nursing at night even though it means I'm exhausted? That blows my mind, seriously.

[AislinCarys]

Originally Posted by D_McG 

Originally Posted by AislinCarys 

I don't agree with all this "you are the parent, she has to learn to self soothe", it is just the same old story as with CIO, where parents try to control their babies and little children. "You need this, because I say so, and I am the parent". I believe babies and children have needs, and over time they will come to not need it, But I don't think it is necessary to force them before they are ready.

I think you missed the point. She (and I) are not saying 'you have to self soothe' it's 'you have to not nurse'. There are a million ways to be soothed without nursing. CIO is putting a baby in a room and walking out. Lying with a toddler and saying 'no nursing' but being open to any other kind of soothing is completely different.

By the time I weaned my kids there was no possible way I could continue nursing at night. I mean I know people here will lie there and meditate to get through the feelings of repulsion. Or get a mother's helper so they can nap during the day and keep up nursing their toddlers at night. But to me that is completely ludicrous. If it works for you, great. But at the end of the day I AM the mother. And I DO know what we all need to sleep. If the mom has outgrown the ability to sleep through nursing then I don't see how it's even suggested that she keep nursing at night. Nighttime is for sleeping. We all go through the horrors of baby sleep. But this is a toddler. And at night, she has to sleep. If everyone can nurse and sleep at the same time? Awesome. But I know I personally lose that ability after the first year. And really I'm supposed to keep nursing at night even though it means I'm exhausted? That blows my mind, seriously.

Yes, I understand your reasons. But the OP didn't say she was repulsed by her child feeding at night, or that she had been desperate for sleep before she tried night-weaning. For all we know she might be ok with some night feeding. All the OP' s really stated is she doesn't want her baby attached all night long. And there may be ways to achieve this without a forced night weaning.

I can't sleep and feed at the same time either, I never could. So DD wakes up and have some short feeds in the night, and we go back to sleep. And I do know that the feeds get much more frequent and much longer on days when she's been to busy to breastfeed much.

And honestly, I've known to many kids who were weaned quite early, way before a year, and who still wake up many times a night when they're 2, 3, 4 years old, and need a parent's help to go back to sleep. Nightweaning does not automatically mean sleeping through!

[kdescalzi]

Thank you for your replies. I am just so confused. I vacillate between feeling like I need to teach her to sleep so we can all sleep at night and trying to figure a way to go with her flow. I feel I really traumatized her trying to nw. Now it is just a disaster. She wakes every hour crying out for me....I am right there, she is in my armpit!! She wakes crying to nurse even though she has been nursing. I am not withholding nursing at all right now and she is not sleeping at all. I am in such a bad place. So tired and she must be tired too. I don;t no where to turn or what I am supposed to do. All I know is that by 2 yrs old she should be sleeping more that 2 hours or less. That is not too much to ask for!!!!

[Bird Girl]

Kdescalzi, you said it yourself. She doesn't know how to go to sleep when she isn't nursing. Now, she's getting past the age where nursing-to-sleep works for her. She needs a new technique--whether you need the break or not, the important thing is that she needs the new technique. I wouldn't keep offering nursing if it's not soothing her. And you are helping her to develop a technique that will work for her--maybe she'll settle on her thumb, or a teddy bear, or she'll twirl her hair, or something else.

I do not understand the posters who claim that the only technique for sleeping through the night is continued nursing. Night nursing beyond 12 months, or 18 months at the very most, is a soothing technique, not a nutritional need for most non-special needs babies. If it continues to work as a soothing technique, then by all means, continue to provide it. But when the child isn't sleeping, or the mother isn't sleeping, then it's time to develop a new technique. You wouldn't expect a 7 year old to nurse to sleep, so why would you expect a 3 year old? Kids can and must develop another way to get themselves to sleep at some point, so why not develop that new way when something about the old way has broken down?

I find it so frustrating that night-time parenting is so often couched in terms of "good" self-sacrificing mothers who will endlessly do something they find intolerable (be woken up, have endless nipple stimulation) and "bad" mothers who help their children find their own ways to get to sleep. No one here is advocating buying a crib, stuffing the kid into it, and locking the door until morning. Offering soothing while allowing your child to develop their own way of getting to sleep does not strike me as emotionally abandoning or not self-sacrificing.

Kdescalzi, I wonder if your DD hasn't come to find co-sleeping to be too-stimulating. One of my children could not stand to be in bed with us--she can't sleep if anyone is touching her, and she was that way starting at 3 months of age. When she was an infant, we kept her in our room, but in her own baby hammock. Perhaps your DD would like to try sleeping on a mattress on the floor in your bedroom--that way, when you and your partner move around, she won't be jostled. I would make a little celebration out of that--perhaps she could pick out a sleeping bag that would be just for her, or a toddler-safe flashlight to keep in bed with her. If she cries at night, you could lie down next to her, without dragging her back into the big bed.

Hang in there. Of course, you're both exhausted, and probably half of her crying is due to being tired out of her mind. It will probably take a few nights, or even a few weeks to build her back up to her normal sleep amount once she gets the hang of the new way.

[meemee]

OP i know this is hard, really HARD - esp. with a very determined child. 

you gotta stick with one way. if you are going to nurse then so be it. just hang in there and let her get used to things are teh same as before.

i can see from your writing that ur dd's wishes are no. 1. 

whatever ur decision stick to it. dont keep vascillating. that's really hard on them. if u r going to keep on nursing then so be it.

i remember my dd crying 'i want my mommy, i want my mommy' while she was in my lap and me holding her. there's a lot going on in their life. lots of emotional upheaval. 

hang in there mama. dig deep in with whatever reserves you have.

things will work out. 

[ssh]

Originally Posted by kdescalzi 

Thank you for your replies. I am just so confused. I vacillate between feeling like I need to teach her to sleep so we can all sleep at night and trying to figure a way to go with her flow. I feel I really traumatized her trying to nw. Now it is just a disaster. She wakes every hour crying out for me....I am right there, she is in my armpit!! She wakes crying to nurse even though she has been nursing. I am not withholding nursing at all right now and she is not sleeping at all. I am in such a bad place. So tired and she must be tired too. I don;t no where to turn or what I am supposed to do. All I know is that by 2 yrs old she should be sleeping more that 2 hours or less. That is not too much to ask for!!!!

There's a possibility that something hurts, maybe teeth or ears. One dose of ibuprofen could rule that out.  She's probably afraid that you won't nurse her when she wakes and that's why she keeps waking. Anxiety can make anyone wake when they normally wouldn't. Your nursing her again at night now but she doesn't trust it yet. It was probably really confusing having something taken away that she always had. She probably didn't understand why it was happening so she fears it will happen again. If you keep nursing her on demand, maybe reassure her verbally that she can nurse anytime she wants, she will be able to relax and and sleep normally again. 

How many nights have you been nursing again? How did last night go?

[chaoticzenmom]

I think that when it comes to lack of sleep, mom's needs have to come first.  You can't function if you can't sleep.  It sounds like maybe your husband could try to help her with sleep and he may be able to have more success at it.  My first child was like yours and there was just no way I could do the nighttime thing by myself.  I was way too affected by him and he knew it and would he would fuss with me over everything.  He didn't do that with my husband.  My husband is gentle, so it wasn't that he was afraid, there was just a different dynamic between them and my husband wasn't as frustrated by the whole thing.  He was able to keep himself calm, while I was completely emotional about the whole thing.   Babies mirror, so if you're agitated, there's no sleep for anyone.  If your husband can't do it, then you'll have to do something to calm yourself down while she's trying to get comfortable.

Do you have a separate sleeping area for her?  I've had great luck with the sidecar crib, it helps keep babies from being awakened by our movements at night.  I  nurse my 21mo  before sleep, then I put him the bed connected to ours and tickle his hair. Sometimes, he's not ready to be out of my arms, so I hug his upper body while he's still in his bed.  Every time, he's let me go after a short time and laid down for me to tickle his hair.   He may wake up once during the night to nurse, but then rolls himself over into his own space to sleep.  If he ends up sleeping in bed right next to me all night, he'll nurse all.night.long.  

I'm not familiar with that Jay Gordon.  Have you read The No-Cry sleep solution?  I found some good stuff in there awhile back.

Until you get this figured out, maybe you can nap with her during the day to help make up for your night waking.

[Carma]

Originally Posted by D_McG 

I would stop nursing at night altogether (not just for 7 hours). I think the 7 hour thing is confusing and too tempting for them. Then I'd just kind of pretend to be asleep. Minimal interaction with her. Give it a week or so and then reevaluate.

I tried to make it more clear with my DS (then about 25 months) by saying that my boobs did not have milk until it was light outside again. He accepted that, and it gave me a period close to the 7 hours. I would nurse him to sleep at about 8 pm. Nurse another time when I went to bed at about 11 pm if needed.

Carma

[lactatinggirl]

I don't know if this is helpful at all, but here is a blog post I did about our night weaning using Dr. Jay Gordon's method: http://theadventuresoflactatinggirl.com/2011/02/28/adventures-in-night-weaning/

I think it really helped to talk to her about it in the day. We also didn't go by the 7 hour thing, but rather that after a certain time (for us, 6:30 because that's when we wake up the days I have school) that she can nurse. It ended up being 10 hours rather than 7. I always tell her she can't nurse until it's time to wake up. I also think it really helped to wear hoodies to bed so that she couldn't really get to my breasts. 

Another thing though is that I think the method worked because we were both ready. DD was a huge night nurser and kept waking more and more frequently for it, but I could tell that every morning she was still tired. I could tell that she wasn't really hungry when she woke, but rather just wanted comfort (like when she'd pass back out before she even got let-down). It also helped that daddy took a more active role in her bedtime routine, so while it was still me comforting her in the middle of the night, if Daddy went in on occasion it wasn't such a shock.