Five year old, gender stuff, peers

[NiteNicole]

My daughter is five.  She's never really been able to maintain a friendship with one particular kid or group of kids.  Most kids in the town we moved from had known each other from birth, their parents were friends, and taking in a new kid was just...like this unknown situation.  Everyone already had friends, their parents already did things together, it was just hard to bust into the circle.  She is desperate for friends and very lonely.

We've moved to a new town (better school) and our neighbors both have kids her age but they're both in school (well, day care and kindergarten) till four most afternoons and their families are busy on the weekends.  We go to parks and story time, but it's always a new mix of kids.  She's starting school in the fall so I hope that helps.

We have never made a big thing about - these things are for boys, those are for girls.  Or girls do this and boys do that.  It's just never been on our radar.  I have started to notice that other kids her age are ALL ABOUT what is boy stuff and what is girl stuff and her interests are definitely not along the lines of Barbie and dolls, she likes dragons.  She went to a birthday party for her boy cousin a few weeks ago.  Even though they normally play well together, all the other kids there were boys and he wouldn't even speak to her.  He flat stiff-armed her when she tried to play with him.  He is five also and VERY concerned about boy stuff v. girl stuff.

This morning all she can talk about is how she had a dream that she found a castle in our neighborhood and she married the beautiful princess who  lived there.  Now, I'm not dream interpreter but I think that being lonely is just on her mind and she really wants a friend.  However, I am certain that the next kid she tells this too is going to rock her world by announcing that girls only marry boys.  Now, we don't care about that.  A. I think it's a dream about wanting a friend and B. she has plenty of gay adults in her life.  At the same time, I feel like I have to prepare her that not everyone thinks like we do - I really don't want her to FINALLY get to school only to find herself the outcast because we didn't prepare her for more conservative ideas.  And this is a pretty conservative area.  She's FIVE.  I feel like five is pretty young to expect her to stand up for our beliefs as a family - she just wants some friends.  I very clearly remember getting the "ew, yuck" in first grade for holding my bffs hand.  It just broke my heart and made me wonder what other stuff I was doing wrong.

This is long, if you've hung in for this long, thank you.  I feel like I worry about just EVERYTHING these days.  I don't know if I even have a question, just looking for thoughts.

[doubledutch]

so much going on!  first, with the friend thing, i think at this stage, you need to find friends for her.  i think you need to befriend a couple of parents at the park, story time, playgroups, ECFE . . . whatever you can find to go to with her.  you have to set up playdates for her at this age.  once school starts, a lot of her social needs will be met during school hours, and hopefully she will make a friend or two that she wants to invite over on the weekend.  heck, maybe she will make a friend who needs after school care for a couple of hours every day.  is that something you'd be open to?  that's a possibility right now, just post it on craigslist that you'll take one kindergartner after school for cheap.

i totally understand about the neighbors being busy and unavailable (because that's my situation), but if you went to the parents and offered to have their child(ren) over for an hour or two on a saturday or sunday so your dd could play with them, and give the parents a break during that time, i would be very surprised if they didn't take you up on it.  i would!  but i suppose you have to be specific, because i often get general offers for stuff like that, but if we're not invited for a specific day, then i'm not going to say, "hey, when can we come over?" because that feels like inviting myself.  so maybe something along the lines of, "i'm free saturday afternoon or sunday morning after 10 this weekend - would one of those work?  what time?"

with the gender stuff, i have been so disappointed to have my kids encounter this at preschool/daycare.  in some ways, they've conformed, and in other ways, they've confidently told kids that they don't care, and such-and-such isn't just for girls.  it's too bad that some kids are so rigid about this stuff.  i think it actually does get better as they get a little older (like . . . 9 or 10?). 

with the marrying a girl comment, we also had to deal with that.  i shared your same concern about others making hurtful comments, so first, i told ds that people may say boys can't marry boys - and this is true, kids don't get married.  only adults do.  then i said, "but some people think only a man and woman can be married - is that right?"  and he said, "no!" because he also knows a few gay couples.  i didn't go into greater detail than that, because it was clear to me that he already knows same-sex couples are a possibility, and would just think the other person was misinformed.  however, whenever i have the opportunity to point out an example (real life, book, movie) of a family that is "different" in some way, whether it's a same-sex couple or single parent family or multi-generational household or whatever, i do so, and just say something like, "there are so many different kinds of families!  isn't that cool?"

good luck with the friend issue - i do think it will probably resolve when she starts school, but that can feel like a long time to someone so young.  have you thought about enrolling her in some other class or activity in the mean time where she would see the same group of kids consistently?  swimming, gymnastics, some kind of art thing . . .

[samstress]

i agree with the pp that the friend situation will most likely improve once school starts.  i was also going to suggest enrolling her in some type of weekly class between now and then.  we had to pull our dd (almost four) out of school at the first of the year (due to financial reasons -- i was laid off in october).  she was really missing her friends (it was breaking my heart).  we go to a lot of parks (she makes friends very easily and will play with just about anyone wherever we go).  i also finally got around to enrolling her in a weekly ice skating class which she's very excited about.  it's something special for her and she gets to see the same group of kids every week.

as for the gender stuff, i would just keep doing what you're doing.  we've raised our daughter the same way.  when she started saying things like, "that's for boys" or "that's for girls" (stuff she was obviously picking up at school) we would gently remind her that boys and girls can do all the same things.  dd tends to like lots of things that are typically for boys (whatever that means), but also loves her dolls and fairies (something i thought would bother me, but i now see as just another wonderful part of her -- i've even come to embrace fairies myself).

as for having a preemptive conversation with you daughter about what kids might say to her at school, i think it's a mistake.  it may just confuse her and might not even be necessary.  i think it's best to address these things as they come up.  it's inevitable, your child will hear and will encounter things that will disturb and confuse her (and that go against what you're teaching her at home).  the best you can do is explain to her how you feel about those things when they come up.

[NiteNicole]

Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas!

I am very open to having the neighbor kids over on the weekend.  I have started letting her play in the front yard on weekends because their backyards are fenced.  I figure if we're in the front playing, they can at least see we're out there.  This usually results in one or the other coming over for a while.  I'd be happy to take a kid after school and will remember that when school starts.  Right now I have my niece a lot, but she's a few years younger.  They play together but it's not the same as a friend because niece is still a little young for imaginative group play and...she can be kind of bossy.

We are planning to put her in swim lessons and cooking classes but since we've moved, it's been one illness after another.  At first it was an ear infection that went on for like ten weeks, followed by a UTI.  I think she's finally clear so we can sign up for those.  In the mix, she also has a bit of a mobility issue - about a year and a half ago she started having trouble walking and eventually could not walk at all.  We have a tentative diagnosis for dystonia in her right leg.  With her meds, sometimes she walks just fine  but she can't run (she has a pretty fast skipping/gallop kind of thing) so running team sports are out which is unfortunate because soccer is huge here.

The gender stuff just makes me so sad.  She is passionate about all her various little interests and not at all moved by princesses or fairies (so much for all those lovely wooden fair houses and things I've carefully hoarded from Tuesday Morning and such because she is not interested) and pretty much every other girl we encounter is decked out in butterfly wings and a crown.  Even sadder is that she's so desperate to make connection, I can see her taking up fairies and princesses and abandoning what she likes to fit in.

[belletrist]

My daughter had a very gender-neutral upbringing, but now that she is in preschool, she's become princess, fairy, and ballerina obsessed. Also since attending school she has picked up on the "this is for girls, this is for boys" talk. My husband and I combat that thinking as best we can while trying to get her to critically think about such statements. As an example, she told us once over dinner that "Boys can't wear skirts." I asked her why she thought that, why do both boys and girls get to wear pants and t-shirts, and asked her if she thought it was fair. She eventually concluded that boys can wear skirts if they want to, just like girls. For some things we turn to Google to image search examples: the "Girls can't shave their heads" comment led to her introduction to Sinead O'Connor.  For the most part, I try not to directly tell her she's wrong, rather give her the opportunity to reason about these things and show her variety and difference. I'm really curious how others have handle this situation.

[LynnS6]

No matter how gender-neutral your upbringing, age 4-5-6 is a time of figuring out gender identity. Kids this age have very black and white thinking, and tend to be all about following the rules. One of the ways they work through the rules and their identity is by being very rigid about roles. I wouldn't worry too much about this, tbh. You can model different gender roles for her, you can talk about how men can like pink, etc. If a child firmly states "that's for boys/girls" you can gently point out cases where you know that's true.

I wouldn't worry too much about the wanting to marry the princess either. When my dd was 4-5, she was going to marry her brother, her best female friend, and at least 2 of the neighbors at various times. Kids are used to fairy tales with wild plots, so the princess and the castle are going to put them into fairytale land anyway.

And you never do know what'll happen with gender roles. My daughter is a fairly girly-girl. I think she spent all year at age 3 in a pink leotard/tutu combination. Yet she doesn't play Barbies (actually gave away her one and only), and prefers Playmobil and stuffed animals. She's been exposed to pop culture kiddie icons (Hanna Montana, Justin Bieber) and rejects them completely. She's got a firm identity as a strong girl. I'm pretty happy with that.

[One_Girl]

I don't think you should worry about the gender stuff so much.  I raised my dd without most of the gender socialization that is the norm in our society and I made sure she was in daycares where they had the same beliefs and my dd did just fine when she got to school and was around kids who had beliefs that were very different than ours.  We talked about why those beliefs are different and about the history of gender roles (in a kid friendly way) when she started being exposed to these things and it has worked out fine.  A lot of girls love dragons and other things that are sometimes linked more with boys at this age so I don't think you should worry about that part of things.

I think the bigger issue to worry about is the friendship one in general.  Have you considered putting her in a regular class where she can meet the same kids each time.  A mom's group may also be a good idea if there is one in the area because they meet regularly and the kids just play together.  If you can have her invite the neighborhood kids over to play that may also be a good way to build up some friendships for her.  If you can just get her together with some of her cousins regularly for free play that may do wonders for helping her not feel lonely.

[NiteNicole]

Thanks for all the thoughts!

As it happens, one of the neighbors came and got HER today and they played together all afternoon (bonus points:  I really like the mom!). 

We are planning to put her in some regular classes (swimming, cooking) just as soon as possible - she was just side lined by a never-ending (but now, thankfully, over) ear infection and UTI (also finally over).  I'm also looking into Girl Scouts.  We were part of a church group she enjoyed but we've moved and it's not so easy to find a church that's in line with our fairly liberal beliefs.

Mostly, I just love who she is and so does she.  I am worried that when she finally starts spending more time around other kids, they will give her a hard time about her little interests and she'll drop them to adopt more acceptable ones.  I can remember being like that and I wish I had had a stronger sense of myself as valid and good enough.  She also has the added issue of sometimes not being able to walk well and she can't run.  I don't want anyone to make her feel bad about things she can't help.

I have an older friend who has two teenage daughters I adore.  I wish we were closer because I so admire how she has managed to raise her girls to be exactly who they are.  They're so strong and smart and creative and funny and happy with themselves.

[no5no5]

One thing that I think others haven't mentioned is that worrying too much about your child being teased or picked on in school can really make your child worry about it too.  These things can be hurtful, I know, but they're also something every young child will experience and really a normal part of life.  I've chosen to try to explain things that DD might want to avoid because she might be teased about them, but I've also chosen to tell her that all kids get teased about something.  I've tried to stress that nobody can make everybody happy, so the important thing is that she does what feels right to her.  If some people don't get her, or don't like her, that's fine.  She's pretty relaxed about it, at least at this point, and I think that's a good thing.  Honestly, I'd rather she be the kid who gets picked on for being weird than the kid who everyone likes because she's turned herself into an amalgam of what she sees as normative.  But of course that's not my decision to make.

[One_Girl]

I wanted to add that reading can be a really wonderful way to help children see a certain way of being as normal and acceptable even if that isn't what friends think.  My dd loved the Dealing With Dragon series, Cowgirl Kate and Cocoa books, and the Rainbow Fairy books (among many others) at that age because they all had strong girl characters saving the day.  The Dealing With Dragon series and many of the books we stumbled across had girls who didn't fit societies expectations and they still sought, and found, adventure and happiness.  We are always reading something so my dd really identifies with book characters and uses them as her guide to how life should or shouldn't be.  If you are also readers that is something to use.  If not then there are also many newer tv episodes and movies with the same themes.

[NiteNicole]

Originally Posted by no5no5 

One thing that I think others haven't mentioned is that worrying too much about your child being teased or picked on in school can really make your child worry about it too.  These things can be hurtful, I know, but they're also something every young child will experience and really a normal part of life.  I've chosen to try to explain things that DD might want to avoid because she might be teased about them, but I've also chosen to tell her that all kids get teased about something.  I've tried to stress that nobody can make everybody happy, so the important thing is that she does what feels right to her.  If some people don't get her, or don't like her, that's fine.  She's pretty relaxed about it, at least at this point, and I think that's a good thing.  Honestly, I'd rather she be the kid who gets picked on for being weird than the kid who everyone likes because she's turned herself into an amalgam of what she sees as normative.  But of course that's not my decision to make.

I agree that at some point, pretty much every kid will get picked on about something.  She is just the most sensitive prone-to-tears kid and she so wants to be liked by everyone.  I can already see her as being the kind of kid who will want to conform - and I don't know where this comes from!  She's been raised on a steady diet of - everyone is different, you're just right the way you are, everyone doesn't have to do/like/be the same way. 

I just wanted to add...I'm not really trying to make her a certain way.  She is who she is.  I just worry that I'm not giving her the tools to deal with other kids as well as I could.  Some kids seem so socially aware at such a young age (I was not that kid).  I'm kind of amazed at some of the five year old, especially girls, who have already figured out how some pretty advanced social moves to position themselves as the leader.  Are they just born knowing this stuff?

The multi quote isn't working for me so I'm about to double post.

[NiteNicole]

Originally Posted by One_Girl 

I wanted to add that reading can be a really wonderful way to help children see a certain way of being as normal and acceptable even if that isn't what friends think.  My dd loved the Dealing With Dragon series, Cowgirl Kate and Cocoa books, and the Rainbow Fairy books (among many others) at that age because they all had strong girl characters saving the day.  The Dealing With Dragon series and many of the books we stumbled across had girls who didn't fit societies expectations and they still sought, and found, adventure and happiness.  We are always reading something so my dd really identifies with book characters and uses them as her guide to how life should or shouldn't be.  If you are also readers that is something to use.  If not then there are also many newer tv episodes and movies with the same themes.

Thank you so much!  We are readers (finally, she had this long phase from about 18 months to 4.5 where she did NOT want to be read to and now, finally when she's trying to read herself, she's ready to sit and be read to endlessly, yay!) and she has already said that all the girl books are "boring" but all the boy books "have adventures."  She'll be excited to see these.

[doubledutch]

Originally Posted by NiteNicole 

Mostly, I just love who she is and so does she.  I am worried that when she finally starts spending more time around other kids, they will give her a hard time about her little interests and she'll drop them to adopt more acceptable ones.

i completely relate to this!  my older son really feeds off of approval from others, and i worry that he will lose some of what makes him so special and interesting in order to conform with his peers' expectations and preferences.