Is it possible to be a WAP vegetarian??

[aba]

I don't eat meat.  And I like it that way.  I don't crave meat, in fact, it rather grosses me out.

However, I really like a lot of what's on the Weston A. Price site.  I like the focus on traditional foods and fermentation, etc.  I have also heard a lot about the GAPS diet (although it literally nauseates me to read what's involved....).

And I'm kind of surprised at the often sarcastic way some WAP leader websites refer to vegetarians.  ("You look pale....please eat some meat!") It's rather off-putting and diminishes their credibility.  Also, I've seen some extremely healthy and glowing vegans!

Anyway, they claim a lot of efficacy in eating this way -- healing the gut, etc.  Just want to get some opinions on this.  I do want to incorporate a lot of the WAP recommendations.  I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of eating so high a concentration of animal products when I fundamentally don't believe they're good for the body.   

[koru]

I think you can most definitely eat WAP & be vegetarian! Do you eat dairy? Right now I'm not  but I will probably re-incorporate it in a few months. For my family, we've been drinking raw milk for a couple years & I make raw yogurt & sour cream from it. I also make kombucha, sauerkraut, soak our grains & legumes, use coconut oil & ghee, and only buy farm fresh eggs, etc.  WAP is about eating whole foods so it was very easy for me to eliminate meat & dairy because we already eat quality grains & nuts & beans & fermented foods. Even without dairy, I feel like I'm following a somewhat WAP way of eating. 

[CookAMH]

I think you could be more so than one who is vegan, if you are consuming animal products besides meat. However, the crux of WAP is based in animal products including meat. The people groups Dr. Price studied had animal products at the center of their diets. 

[aba]

We don't drink dairy right now, however, I make yogurt with farm-fresh milk and I've been trying that.  But it seems dairy gives me night sweats and disturbs my sleep, even the local fresh kind.  That's why I have issues with some of the recommendations.  I tried to make milk kefir but I hated it.  Hated the texture and taste.  I just fundamentally believe cow's milk is meant for baby cows, not us.

I do make really nice coconut yogurt for DD who has basically been dairy free from birth.  She likes that.  And we do water kefir with ginger, which I can't make enough of!

[ambereva]

I'd love to show up at a WAPF meeting in a tank top one day and bench press a couple TFers.

Pretty much everything I eat could be found in any TFers pantry or refrigerator. I just don't eat the animal parts and fluids.

[nicolelynn]

I was into WAPF/TF for 4 years. I was healthy when I started then ended up with parasitic/yeast colitis for 1 1/2 years. That was despite all the yogurt and ferments I ate, which were *supposed* to protect my gut. I then tried the GAPS diet and that did nothing for me. I tried various animal based diets and natural cures, and nothing worked. Finally I resorted to drugs, and thank God that worked.

Not saying these things won't work for someone else, though I'm mostly veg*n now, I acknowledge different things work for different people. But I do believe now excessive amounts of animal products are bad for most people, as proved by a host of scientific studies. For me specifically I think the excessive amounts of dairy (even raw/fermented), eggs ( http://www.bodyofwealth.com/entry/choline-in-eggs-and-diary-products-may-lead-to-colon-cancer-in-women/ and fermented food ( http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=101 ) had a cumulative harmful effect on my colon. While small amounts of those foods are probably fine and even good, large amounts may not be for some people.

So I am moving away from all labels because I've found every group has an agenda, and I just try to go with the most sound science and how MY body feels.

But to answer your question yes, as PP have said you can be vegetarian and WAPF, though you will certainly continue to hear them extol meat, lard, etc and try to get you to reconsider. Some traditional diets like the Swiss were all rye bread and dairy, or the Irish were potatoes, oats and dairy, etc. But they say veganism is decidedly NOT traditional, though many monks and religious people have been vegan through the ages, so I think that is debatable.

Do what feels right for you and good luck!

[ghostlykisses]

 You can certainly be a vegetarian and follow this way of eating. You could use the principals of food preparation for a vegan diet as well. You will run into a lot of hard core animal product lovers but who cares?

[PlayaMama]

i tried to make the switch to tf and i just couldn't do it. i took the veggie ferments, coconut oil, and pastured eggs and that's about it. oh! i added cod liver oil because it made me feel amazing.

i am more lenient with myself if i occasionally want a bite of salmon, but i can't do the organ meat/ raw dairy (any dairy really except ghee and some cheeses) stuff.

my philosophy has morphed into what makes me feel the healthiest rather than a strict adherence to anything. this can range from raw vegan in the summers to salmon, rice and veggies in the winters.

[holyhelianthus]

We had a really awesome thread about this very thing a while back... http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/855217/whole-foods-tf-like-veg-ns

I would love to revisit this if anyone else is interested in having a sort of tribe. :)

[violetflapjack]

First I want to say I'm really happy to have found this thread!  It's definately bridging some worlds for me.  I recently became aware of the whole WAP perspective and I've been trying to balance it with everything I thought I "knew" about being vegetarian/vegan.  Both sides of the dietary debate seems to have their extremes for sure, but if you know that you are constitutionally better off as a vegetarian there is still a lot to learn from the WAP stuff...especially the bit about phytic acid and anti-nutrients found in some plant foods and how to disable them.  This was really astonishing information for me to learn about and I couldn't believe that more of my veg friends (who are so nutrition savvy) weren't hip to it.

[ambereva]

Originally Posted by violetflapjack 

First I want to say I'm really happy to have found this thread!  It's definately bridging some worlds for me.  I recently became aware of the whole WAP perspective and I've been trying to balance it with everything I thought I "knew" about being vegetarian/vegan.  Both sides of the dietary debate seems to have their extremes for sure, but if you know that you are constitutionally better off as a vegetarian there is still a lot to learn from the WAP stuff...especially the bit about phytic acid and anti-nutrients found in some plant foods and how to disable them.  This was really astonishing information for me to learn about and I couldn't believe that more of my veg friends (who are so nutrition savvy) weren't hip to it.

I'm hip to it, I've tried and tried to find some reputable science to back up the claim that phytic acid is as detrimental as the WAPF people make it out to be. The only anti-phytic acid sources I find are mercola, WAPF, and their ilk, and the actual science I find shows that the amounts present in the average plant-based diet aren't a concern, some studies even suggest they may be beneficial.

[SandraMort]

Yes, it's a big turnoff.  It's very hard to take them seriously with how they badmouth vegetarians.
 

And I'm kind of surprised at the often sarcastic way some WAP leader websites refer to vegetarians.  ("You look pale....please eat some meat!") It's rather off-putting and diminishes their credibility.  Also, I've seen some extremely healthy and glowing vegans!

[SandraMort]

I'm glad to hear it.  I've been looking and haven't found anything that I really trust.
 

I'm hip to it, I've tried and tried to find some reputable science to back up the claim that phytic acid is as detrimental as the WAPF people make it out to be. The only anti-phytic acid sources I find are mercola, WAPF, and their ilk, and the actual science I find shows that the amounts present in the average plant-based diet aren't a concern, some studies even suggest they may be beneficial.

[holyhelianthus]

While I don't think soaking is a must I have to admit that since we started soaking our grains about a month ago it's been amazing! Not health wise- I don't notice much of a difference- but taste and texture-wise. It's been so good a loaf disappears within an hour. I did make great bread before but this just takes the cake. For one when I made whole grain bread before it was super dense. Now that I soak it is light and fluffy- so much so that my typical recipe now overflows in my bread machine. I can't really describe the flavor but it just adds that extra something to it. So health-wise I could go either way but soaking definitely does something. 

And to be fair the whole phytic acid thing isn't really about phytic acid being harmful per se as much as that it's presence takes away from other nutrients. And that's not something made up by WAP, it's simply a fact. From the online medical dictionary:

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/phytic+acid

 

phytic acid (fī´tik),

n a component of some high-fiber foods, including many cereal grains that may, in excessive amounts, cause constipation or interfere with the body's ability to absorb minerals.

I also found this paper from Cambridge (a PDF):

http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FBJN%2FBJN2_04%2FS0007114549000700a.pdf&code=5b0b5f7b4c9cee4e83c2e95bce65491e

 When  Bruce  & Callow (1934) were 

studying rickets in rats due to insufficiency of phosphorus, they found that cereals were 

less effective as a source of  phosphorus than inorganic phosphorus, and they suggested 

that the phosphorus present in cereals as phytic acid might be poorly absorbed. They 

recognized, moreover, that phytic acid might precipitate calcium very effectively in the 

intestine, and so prevent its absorption. Mellanby at once saw the importance of this, 

since a deficiency in the body  of  calcium but  not of  phosphorus is the usual cause of 

rickets in puppies or children, and Harrison & Mellanby (1939) demonstrated that the 

diet of  puppies could be made rachitogenic by the  addition of  phytic acid.  Here was 

positive proof of the dangers of a substance widely distributed in nature and frequently 

eaten in large amounts by man

I would say that soaking is about optimal health not that not soaking is unhealthy, if that makes sense. 

And I know this is wikipedia so far from reliable but I found it interesting nonetheless when it comes to the benefit side of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytic_acid

 

Phytic acid may be considered a phytonutrient, providing an antioxidant effect.^[1][18] Phytic acid's mineral binding properties may also prevent colon cancer by reducingoxidative stress in the lumen of the intestinal tract.^[19] Researchers now believe phytic acid, found in the fiber of legumes and grains, is the major ingredient responsible for preventing colon cancer and other cancers.^[1][20]

In vitro studies using a cell culture model have suggested phytic acid may have a neuroprotective effect by chelating iron.^[21] Similar types of cell-culture studies have found phytic acid significantly decreased apoptotic cell death induced by 1-methyl-4-phenylpyridinium. Phytic acid, at least in rodents, is known to cross the blood-brain barrier,^[22]and so, there is a strong possibility that neuroprotection occurs in vivo as well.

Phytic acid's chelating effect may serve to prevent, inhibit, or even cure some cancers by depriving those cells of the minerals (especially iron) they need to reproduce.^[1]The deprivation of essential minerals like iron would, much like other systemic treatments for cancers, also have negative effects on noncancerous cells.

A randomized, controlled trial in breast cancer patients showed no effect on chemotherapy-induced anemia or tumor markers, but the patients reported subjectively feeling better.^[23]

Phytic acid is one of few chelating therapies used for uranium removal.^[24]

Ironically, it is shown to be a required cofactor for YopJ, a toxin from Yersinia pestis.^[25] It is also a required cofactor for the related toxin AvrA from Salmonella typhimurium^[25] as well as Clostridium difficile Toxin A and Toxin B.

As a food additive, phytic acid is used as a preservative, as E391.^[26

What I find interesting is that phytic acids benefits here are because of it's chelating effect or rather that it deprives us of certain nutrients. It's sort of 6 of one half a dozen of the other. Aren't most things in nutrition? *sigh*

Anywho I will reiterate that phytic acid debate aside soaking does make for a tastier bread with a better texture in our opinion. So at very least try it for that experience! 

[holyhelianthus]

Oh and I should add that soaking our beans and legumes has greatly reduced our gas issues. I use to either not soak them at all or just use the quick soak method. Now I soak them overnight (or a bit longer) with a touch of vinegar and it does wonders. Funny enough I learned this from a grandmother originally not from any WAP book or site. 

Nicole said:

 

While small amounts of those foods are probably fine and even good, large amounts may not be for some people.

I think this is just it- TF/NT/WAP gets a bit too excessive with some of these foods. I totally think soaking is great, fermenting, eating animal products like eggs and milk as natural as possible if at all but I'm not going to drink a gallon of milk a day and have a 12 egg omelet every morning for breakfast every morning. I think the problem can be that these diets turn into animal-based. IMO that's just not healthy. 

[holyhelianthus]

Sorry for the serial posting but I just remembered something- when I was first thinking about this I ventured to the TF forum to talk about it (a few years ago) and that's when it was made clear to me that there is a difference between the WAP crowd and the NT/Sally Fallon crowd. The WAP crowd is actually pretty plant based. They also told me that WAP did study a vegetarian culture (I think that may have been talked about a bit in the thread I linked to above). A lot of people in that forum eat a more plant-based diet with a bit of animal products on the side. So I wanted to be fair to them and mention that. 

[ambereva]

Originally Posted by holyhelianthus 

Sorry for the serial posting but I just remembered something- when I was first thinking about this I ventured to the TF forum to talk about it (a few years ago) and that's when it was made clear to me that there is a difference between the WAP crowd and the NT/Sally Fallon crowd. The WAP crowd is actually pretty plant based. They also told me that WAP did study a vegetarian culture (I think that may have been talked about a bit in the thread I linked to above). A lot of people in that forum eat a more plant-based diet with a bit of animal products on the side. So I wanted to be fair to them and mention that. 

Yeah, WAP himself was cool. WAPF, though, has sort of taken his work and created a weird extremist cult out of it.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by ambereva 

Yeah, WAP himself was cool. WAPF, though, has sort of taken his work and created a weird extremist cult out of it.

Ayup. But take into account who is at the reins- Sally Fallon. :/

[happyhippie]

hahahahaha 

veg here, I love my fermented veggies, but that's where I draw the WAP line.  

[holyhelianthus]

BUMP