daughter & her friend (they were both 7) 'doing it' in school bathroom...

[vegantics]

i got a call earlier tonight from my daughter's school principal. she is pretty cool (my daughter goes to a very democratic school), all in all.

apparently my daughter & her friend were naked with one another last year in the bathroom stall more than once and only they knew about it, kept it their secret and now the cats out of the bag (they are 8 now) and a friend demanded they tell her the 'secret' she overhead them talking about today. finally my daughter told her their secret, she said with her curious friend there as well, and that friend told another friend and so forth, til it got to the principal.

my daughter and this friend have had their ins and outs. my daughter can be very assertive, impulsive, demanding, stubborn and downright vicious when p'd off. i'm sure some would define her as ADHD or ADD but i am trying to avoid labeling her. she is one very strong personality to say the least. many have said she is 'bossy' (the principal did say this) or 'forceful' or 'mean'.

for the past many months this year in school the girls have been told to not go near one another by the girls older brother and sister. now that this issue is out, the girls mom is apparently livid and wants to know all about my daughters mother (me), father, home, family... wtf!?

the girls were SEVEN. my daughter would NEVER force another, anyone, to do something like that against their will. i feel like this other mom feels my daughter bullied/forced/raped her daughter last year...LAST YEAR, from what the principal relayed to me about their conversation... according to my talk w/ my daughter, the 'secret' rendevous' were consentual.

i'm not in denial. i know my daughter can be intense. rude. strong willed. she is quite a power house. but i do not believe she'd take it the extreme of forcing her friend to play "sex". at first i thought it a red flag that they did this in the bathroom at school but then i thought, well, kids don't go to one another's houses like i did as a child...so much of childrens playtime is so monitored and scheduled w/ 'play dates' that that leaves them limited as to when they play together...

i feel it is very natural and normal (and commoon amongst most of us as children) to be sexually curious about sex. i know i sure was w/ my best friends!!!

sooo...principal wasn't sure she had to call CPS about this matter, said she is checking into that...yikes! these girls were both SEVEN!!!!!  but that we will probably all have a meeting/mediation after spring break...sigh. i know i'm going to be so ticked off while in it and probably bawl my eyes out. i'm so tired of my daughter being outcast and labeled by peers and teachers.

my daughter also told me that her friend gets whipped and slapped. she has mentioned this before but i thought my daughter was fibbing as she does a bit of at this age...but now i'm going to mention this to the principal as well.

i will also mention that i've emailed 3 teachers in the past month or so about my daughter and this girls' friendship issues this year...have not heard back. do not think they got email via the schools website. sigh....

sorry for the lengthy post...i'm just frustrated and sad and feel these girls were uncessarily shamed for their innocent exploration...

have any of you had similar experience with your daughters?

[babygirlie]

Have ou thought about getting your daughters hormone levels checked? Like thyroid? It could make someone short tempered.

I think it might be wise to be open to counseling so any budding molestation tendencies can be addressed.

[babygirlie]

I also feel innocent kids don't keep "secrets". That this is learned behavior you should be concerned about

[ecoteat]

Even if it is normal to be curious, kids are expected to understand boundaries, especially at school. So I can understand the school wanting to address this seriously, while I also understand how you are feeling picked on. Innocent exploration or not, that is never appropriate behavior at school. Never. Also, a lot of people don't see it as being innocent or normal, whether you agree with them or not.

Good luck. Try to not get defensive and to really hear what everyone else has to say when you meet. It's probably not going to be easy. If the school tries to pull any disciplinary action for something that happened last year that would be pretty absurd, but from what you say, if both girls were equally involved, I would hope that whatever the school does is fair for both of them.

[AllyRae]

How in the bleep are 2 7 year olds alone long enough to get into this type of trouble?  Every school I know of will send an adult in when 1st graders are in the bathroom longer than a couple minutes to make sure everything is ok.  And to have this happen more than once is confusing to me.

Regardless, I don't think this was just innocent children's fun.  There seems to be some boundary issues that need to be addressed...especially if this is happening during school hours (most 7 year olds are not messing around exploring other children's bodies during school.  School is usually quite busy and there are people everywhere, and most 7 year olds are just not thinking about 'playing doctor').  Also, if it were innocent and normal, I'd be concerned about the secret thing--many kids have secrets when they are afraid of getting in trouble, so whoever was the one that wanted this secret kept must have known on some level that the behavior was not appropriate.

I don't know why they are jumping to conclusions saying that this is your daughter's fault (sounds like it takes 2 in this case....), but I would definitely go to this meeting  with your eyes and ears open to what will be said.  I don't know what a democratic school is, but for every child's safety, it seems like there needs to be some more supervision going on.

[Drummer's Wife]

I wonder, too, how they could have that much time to get fully undressed!  Wouldn't the teacher realize they had been gone that long?  I don't have anything helpful to add, but to me, none of this sounds like normal exploration - but then, maybe I am clueless.  Sorry this is happening, I hope you are able to get your DD into counseling. 

[One_Girl]

Are they still getting naked together or has that stopped?  I think that last year this should have been addressed and that addressing it still may be something important if you aren't completely sure she isn't getting nude with others at school.  By seven kids mostly understand nudity restrictions in public places and they don't get naked in bathrooms and explore each other so I do think this is something they need to take seriously.  I don't know that it warrants a call to CPS, but I do think you need to consider having a very good counselor talk to her to try to figure out if she has been molested as well as suggesting that the other child's parents take her to a counselor to route out any problems on that front. 

Also, naked doesn't always mean totally naked to a child this age.  My dd thought that kids with their shirts off were naked and used to whisper that she could see guy's boobs in a shocked voice when we were at the park and shirtless men played basketball. 

[Kristin0105]

Well, from a CPS standpoint i don't think they would take the case if the school did call as the girls are not caretakers of each other. However, CPS might wonder about the supervision they are providing at the school. the other issue I would focus on is why did your dd think she needed to keep it a secret? I would want her to know that it's okay to be curious but naked at school is not okay and be open to ask any questions she may have. Open mind at the meeting may be critical here.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by somarvelis 

my daughter and this friend have had their ins and outs. my daughter can be very assertive, impulsive, demanding, stubborn and downright vicious when p'd off. i'm sure some would define her as ADHD or ADD but i am trying to avoid labeling her. she is one very strong personality to say the least. many have said she is 'bossy' (the principal did say this) or 'forceful' or 'mean'.

<snip>

i'm so tired of my daughter being outcast and labeled by peers and teachers.

Do you see the contradiction and the irony here? Your daughter is being labeled, and they're not very helpful labels right now are they? I would DEFINITELY call the teachers and ask that they call you back. If they don't, call the principal and tell them you're not getting through to the teachers. It's part of their job.

There are definite benefits to getting a diagnosis so that you can understand how to help your child better. An ADHD diagnosis does not mean you must do medicines, for example. The meds do help somewhat, but there's also a ton of behavioral work that needs to happen. I know people who have done meds short term while they work on behavioral issues, just so the child can learn some new skills. Once the new skills are in place, they taper off the meds. But without a diagnosis or some effective strategies for her to manage her behavior, what sort of lessons is she learning? What sort of damage is being done to her self-esteem.

I'm also wondering if this school is the best place for your daughter. The teachers aren't responding. Your daughter is being ostracized. Are there positives that outweigh the negatives? 
 

[pianojazzgirl]

I really wonder about this school.  How were 2 girls allowed that much time alone together in a bathroom for this to have happened (multiple times!)?  And the lack of communication/response by the teachers?  And (according to you, OP) teachers and students at the school have outcast and negatively labeled your dd.  I don't think that I'd be interested in keeping my dd at that school.

[ecoteat]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

There are definite benefits to getting a diagnosis so that you can understand how to help your child better. An ADHD diagnosis does not mean you must do medicines, for example. The meds do help somewhat, but there's also a ton of behavioral work that needs to happen. I know people who have done meds short term while they work on behavioral issues, just so the child can learn some new skills. Once the new skills are in place, they taper off the meds. But without a diagnosis or some effective strategies for her to manage her behavior, what sort of lessons is she learning? What sort of damage is being done to her self-esteem.

Very true. An accurate diagnosis of a physical, emotional, behavioral, or learning disability helps schools meet the needs of the children. Schools often are not allowed to make accommodations for children without a label. If there is a possibility that your dd has ADD or ADHD, identifying it doesn't make it more true or more of a problem (and a diagnosis in and of itself certainly doesn't say anything negative about your parenting!), it gives you more tools for advocating for her needs.

I just read the OP again, and I really hope the girls can both be honest about what happened. The only evidence of what occurred is their memories of it. This is definitely a very sticky situation. Do they play together outside of school at all?

[weliveintheforest]

What does your daughter say about this?  Is it possible things are being exaggerated?  

[APToddlerMama]

OP--What a tough situation for you to be in :(.  The school has some responsibility for sure in allowing the girls to be unsupervised like this.  At seven, your daughter is really getting past the stage where this is somewhat normal exploration.  If you had said four, I would have said okay, maybe.  At this age, I would be concerned at the *very* least that both girls need to understand appropriate boundaries.  Second, I would be very concerned that perhaps my child had been sexually abused by someone.  Acting out sexually can be a sign that sexual abuse has occurred.  It may not have, but I would want to look into that much deeper.  Perhaps the other child was abused and then played out/engaged your daughter in the behaviors.  Who knows. 

You also mention that your daughter is labeled frequently and it seems others find her mean, forceful, etc.  I am sorry for you because I am sure your heart breaks as a mother to hear that.  I think you have to accept that there must be some truth to that, look at what the underlying cause is, and help your daughter to change that.  If others perceive her this way, her entire life is going to be a real challenge.  Also, I would be concerned about the underlying cause for being "mean and forceful".  Again, what is bothering her?  Self esteem issues?  Untreated mental health concerns?  Unaddressed needs...ADD, ADHD, food allergies, sleep issues, a lack of boundaries and expectations at home, stress at home, whatever?  I am just throwing ideas out there.  I don't presume to know the cause but I think it might help for you to take her to a therapist to help you address the issues with her.  Best of luck to you both.   

[meemee]

OP how are things going?

how is your dd doing? how are YOU doing?

[chaimom]

OP, a few of your previous posts have caught my eye regarding your dd, and in my opinion, it's time for you to talk to a therapist or other professional about her behavior and figure out an intervention plan.  I just noticed that on another thread you've recently discovered that she pees on the carpet.  She also tried to get a friend in trouble by writing graffiti supposedly by her, and that the friend (the same one from this thread?) has been told not to play with her because of additional incidents. You never updated us on how you handled that and how it resolved. But it does seem that there's something going on with your dd and it might be a good idea to accept that the behaviors are happening and try to get at the root of why they are happening so she can get back on track.

It sounds like a difficult time, but you're clearly in her court, so I'm sure the situation can be improved.  I'm with other posters here, who also question whether this school is the right fit for your dd.  Sounds like she's having a real social struggle there.  I might consider moving her, but I would also get counseling-- a move by itself isn't going to help her figure out why she's acting like she is.

Best of luck.

[doubledutch]

up until fairly recently, i would have thought this was normal.  i would have said, "oh, me and my cousin did that at that age," not at school, but still.  my experience would have made me believe this was normal curiosity/exploration.  however, i recently found out my cousin was being molested.  that's why she desperately wanted to play that "game" with me, probably to try to understand what was happening to her.  i didn't want to, but i went along with it, because otherwise she would cry horribly - she was a very manipulative and bossy child.  she didn't "make" me, as in physically coerce me, but she had many emotional weapons and i didn't know how to say no.  knowing what i now know, if my pre-pubescent child were initiating sexual activity with anyone - friend, sibling, whatever - i would be very concerned.  i would take my child to a professional for evaluation.

for those who think the school did something wrong by leaving the girls unsupervised in the bathroom long enough to get undressed, they may have just pulled their pants down, not taken everything off.  i mean, they could have been in there for five minutes - long enough to pull your pants down, pee, poop, wipe, flush, pull your pants back up and wash your hands.  or, long enough to do what they were doing.  it doesn't take long for something like that to happen.

[Tigerchild]

Having worked with sexually abused children, this post in and of itself doesn't alarm me, but it combined with other things you have mentioned in other threads (acting out by defacing property and starting to pee into laundry piles instead of using the regular bathroom) really set off the alarm bells.

If your child's school allows the children to be unsupervised like this (I know the philosophy of democratic schools specifically gives the children a lot of autonomy), and the director is waffling about reporting sexual contact between children *that happened on the school premises during school hours*, I would be extremely worried about the safety of the school.  They may in fact be reluctant to report NOT out of concern for your daughter, but because they are worried about licensing or other authorities reaction to the lack of supervision.

Please take the idea that your DD may have been sexually abused seriously.  Do not disregard these warning signals because you believe she may be ADHD.  to be really honest, I think that this warrants counseling--not just because some of the behaviors you have reported *taken together* are strong warning signs, but because if she truly does not understand boundaries, she is fast approaching the age where she could indeed be labeled something even worse--a sexual predator, by people who aren't reluctant to report to the authorities.