Did having your child tested help you make good educational decisions?

[Galatea]

We have 4 kids (7, 5, almost 3, and 6 months.)  We think they are gifted but I do not know a whole lot about gifted theory and am trying to catch up.  We pulled ds1 out of PS in January b/c the work was totally inappropriate and easy (just a short pull-out class and nothing else until 3rd grade) and have been HSing.  I am not sure HSing is appropriate for us, either, mainly b/c I am so busy and don't know how to do it, so we toured a local Montessori school which we both loved, but it is super-expensive.  Before we go rearranging our lives to afford it, I want to have a better sense of it it will be worth it.  So.... would it be worth our time to have ds1 and ds2 and maybe 2.8-yr-old dd tested?  Having grown up gifted in a family of gifted people, it never occurred to me to think that our kids were unusual, and they have not done crazy unusual things like take apart the toaster, etc., but I discovered in HSing that anything I tried to teach ds1, he learned the first go, no repetition, just hearing it out loud.  I think the Montessori school is really nice, and we especially loved their concrete approach to everything, but it occurred to me that if ds1 can learn dividing, remainders and fractions in 1 minute of talking, maybe even this lovely school would not be right. 

-Would IQ or achievement testing show us anything about the kids that would help us decide on an appropriate school or style of education? 

-Is there a psychologist out there who would be able to administer tests and be able to say, "Based on your child's tests and my interviews, I think Montessori/unschooling/full grade-level skip/whatever would be great for your son"?

-If so, how do I find a psychologist who is capable of this?  There is nothing I hate more than going to see a professional and knowing more than they do about what I need them for.

Thanks so much!

[VisionaryMom]

There are people who are educational consultants. The few I've come across are psychologists by training and have specialized in education. None of them are on our insurance, but I don't know how common that is. Our insurance is decent, but as this falls under mental health, it's pretty restricted. 

We did have a development psychologist who evaluated DS when he was 4. He did some really rudimentary IQ tests, which our insurance did pay for because they were under the guise of "behavioral concerns."

IM(limited)E, more than the school, it's the teacher who matters. DS is in a public school district that is *not* friendly to gifted children overall, but his teacher started advocating for him with the administration before we ever met with her. She and a couple of other teachers are working to convince the school to have additional resources available for (unofficially identified) gifted kids before the official program. If DS were in a different K class, then I'm not sure we'd have that. I think that the same probably is true in private school. We visited a couple, and the gist that we got from them was that the school's administrators would tell us how gung-ho they were about helping to meet DS' needs, but the teachers were 50/50 about it.

[ChristaN]

We did the whole IQ, achievement, etc. testing w/ dd12 when she returned to public school after a stint with homeschooling as well.  That seems like a good time to do it and your dc is of a good age to have results that can be deemed relatively reliable.  I, personally, would not test your 2.8 y/o b/c results at that age just aren't that stable.

In terms of finding a psych who can tell you that, based upon the #s, here's what you need to do, I wouldn't be too sure on that.  Most HG-PG probably will need some acceleration, but there are some MG who will also need acceleration and some HG who won't.  There is so much more that plays into educational needs than sheer #s.  For instance, I've known kids who are of average ability who've done well with subject acceleration or compacting b/c they are high achieving hard workers.  I've also known HG kids who haven't needed as much acceleration as their IQ might predict.

We have two HG kids with the younger one having a somewhat higher IQ (in the PG range if you use DYS' 99.9 criterion for defining PG).  The younger one started K somewhat early by starting in the district with the latest K cut-off we could find before changing to a district with a later cut-off.  She's in a GT reading class and subject accelerating in math, but due to ADD and anxiety, she's been an erratic student.  She won't likely be accelerating beyond what she is doing now.  I'd venture to guess that most kids with IQs in her range might need more acceleration.

Our oldest is right in the HG range.  She also started early-ish w/ a just on the cusp bd and skipped a grade.  She's in GT classes and probably needs more in some subjects.  She'll be starting HS before her 13th bd in the fall.  I don't know that all kids with IQs in her range would be achieving as highly as she is or need as much acceleration, but her personality and drive are conducive to her needing more than one might predict based solely IQ #s.

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by ChristaN 

We did the whole IQ, achievement, etc. testing w/ dd12 when she returned to public school after a stint with homeschooling as well.  That seems like a good time to do it and your dc is of a good age to have results that can be deemed relatively reliable.  I, personally, would not test your 2.8 y/o b/c results at that age just aren't that stable.

In terms of finding a psych who can tell you that, based upon the #s, here's what you need to do, I wouldn't be too sure on that.  Most HG-PG probably will need some acceleration, but there are some MG who will also need acceleration and some HG who won't.  There is so much more that plays into educational needs than sheer #s.  For instance, I've known kids who are of average ability who've done well with subject acceleration or compacting b/c they are high achieving hard workers.  I've also known HG kids who haven't needed as much acceleration as their IQ might predict.

We have two HG kids with the younger one having a somewhat higher IQ (in the PG range if you use DYS' 99.9 criterion for defining PG).  The younger one started K somewhat early by starting in the district with the latest K cut-off we could find before changing to a district with a later cut-off.  She's in a GT reading class and subject accelerating in math, but due to ADD and anxiety, she's been an erratic student.  She won't likely be accelerating beyond what she is doing now.  I'd venture to guess that most kids with IQs in her range might need more acceleration.

Our oldest is right in the HG range.  She also started early-ish w/ a just on the cusp bd and skipped a grade.  She's in GT classes and probably needs more in some subjects.  She'll be starting HS before her 13th bd in the fall.  I don't know that all kids with IQs in her range would be achieving as highly as she is or need as much acceleration, but her personality and drive are conducive to her needing more than one might predict based solely IQ #s.

Thank you!  What does "in the PG range if you use DYS' 99.9 criterion for defining PG" mean?

This makes me think about ds1 - he is so bright and learns so quickly, but was content in PS just to sit there and not be challenged or learn anything at all, and he misses PS.  He doesn't seem to have any big internal push to find things out, which to me, is my defining characteristic.  By what you said, this would seem to show that he would not need much acceleration.
 

[ChristaN]

Originally Posted by Galatea 

Thank you!  What does "in the PG range if you use DYS' 99.9 criterion for defining PG" mean?

This makes me think about ds1 - he is so bright and learns so quickly, but was content in PS just to sit there and not be challenged or learn anything at all, and he misses PS.  He doesn't seem to have any big internal push to find things out, which to me, is my defining characteristic.  By what you said, this would seem to show that he would not need much acceleration.
 

Davidson Young Scholars (DYS) has a fairly liberal definition of profoundly gifted (PG).  They use an IQ score in the 99.9th percentile or about 145.  Dd was a few points over that 145 mark.  Others define PG as a higher percentage or number.

I don't know if I'd say that your ds doesn't need more challenge just that his personality may be one where he is content to coast.  Coasting isn't all perfect either b/c a child may never learn good work ethic.  It's just a learning process to figure out how much to push for each kid. 

I would have thought that a child with an IQ that puts her at 1 in 1000 like dd10 would need grade acceleration, but my dd does not b/c of personality, age and small stature in relation to peers that tends to have her feel like the little kid in the bunch, and 2e issues.  I have pushed, though, for more than the std curriculum in the std classroom b/c she is capable of more and she wouldn't be learning how to work if she was getting As for just showing up.  She wouldn't care except that she's competitive and feels inferior compared to her older sister, though. 

I'd suspect that your ds needs more than the std fare too even if he is happy to get easy As.  I just wouldn't assume that the IQ scores alone are going to tell you what exactly he needs.  It could be subject acceleration, grade acceleration, a GT class grouping, or something else.  Nothing probably isn't going to do it, though, if he is gifted to some degree, which it sounds like he is.   

[meemee]

dd went to a dc/ps since 2. i spent a lot of time finding one which was a totally playbased one. she would have gone to a montessori one when she was 4 but it wasnt in a nice area. that was the best place for her. she learnt many things and really it spoilt school for her. 

with dd i have found being gifted is not just about academics. i do a lot of afterschool with her so school for her mainly is a social outlet (she IS in a gate school). 

dd is not PG. and the education does not really do much for her. however she tolerates school. she hates the academics (she is the kind of child who wants to figure out how to instead of know details) but really enjoys the social element and her teacher. 

however dd's friend PG had a REALLY hard time in school and was a mess by first grade. finally getting into a special PG school and finding like minded friends really brought out the best in him. it was an expensive private school. 

testing for him was imperative. testing for us did not give us any different choice. 

Edited by meemee - 3/19/11 at 4:25pm

[Drummer's Wife]

We did have our oldest DS tested (at the request of his teacher) but it didn't change anything with regards to his schooling.  He already is in a Montessori program, so when we had a meeting with the psych and other specialists at his school, all the things they recommended in his education plan to keep him challenged were things that were already in place due to the setting he was in.  I do happen to think Montessori is pretty awesome for kids on all sides of the spectrum (we have 3 kids in Montessori who range from below grade level in some areas to advanced/gifted), but I understand why you are looking into IQ testing before making the plunge since it's so expensive. If my DS had been in a regular classroom, he would have probably been pulled out for GATE classes and had someone to work with him to give him more challenging assignments.  As it is now, if he wants to spend hours researching, say, why the seasons are different on other continents right now, he can b/c he is not stuck sitting in a desk doing worksheets.  For him, that kind of situation just sets him up for behavioral issues because he gets bored quickly when work is far too easy for him or doesn't hold his interest.  

Best of luck figuring it all out. 

[whatsnextmom]

Testing has made very little difference for us. My eldest wasn't tested until the age of 12 and only because the high school she was attending would only accept test scores for the gifted program. Before that, the school gave her what she needed based on her achievement and their/our observations. She had a grade skip, subject accelerations, in-class differentiation, honors/advanced classes and the GATE program. She's in the HG program at her high school but it's not really making much of a difference. My DS was tested in 2nd grade as were all the kids in his class. He does have a really fun GATE pull-out class a couple times a week but honestly, his subject accelerations, differentiation, the language immersion setting is what has been the most beneficial and that has been given based on achievement testing and observation.

Whether you test really depends on the school of your choice. There are some that will not even consider a child as gifted without a test to prove it. If this is the case, you have to make sure you test on the measure THEY will accept. I'd hate for you to pay big bucks for testing only to find the school of choice won't accept it.

[moominmamma]

Testing made no difference for us. My dd was only tested at 14 at the request of her school .... after they accommodated her quite nicely, and only in order to bring a small additional amount of funding into their overall coffers. She was unschooled until age 14, entered school with all sorts of individualized learning and advanced placement, was tested, confirming everything we had already figured out about her, and continued on her merry way. 

Miranda

[Linda on the move]

When they were younger, not so much. As they got older, yes. But it also depends on how they are being educated (homeschooled vs public school vs private school)

With my *just* gifted DD, having solid scores opened doors for her to nice opportunities that were based on IQ. However, personality was more of a factor in what works best for her than just a number.

My other child is 2E, and testing with a 2E child is imperative. It's impossible to tell what is going on with her, as her challenges often mask gifts, and the other way around to. If there is any sign that a child might be 2E, I would highly recommend testing no matter how the child is being educated.

With the thorough testing my 2E dd has had, no recommendations were made by the evaluator about what type of schooling would be best for her or what accommodations were ideal in a school situation. Her report was meant to be interpreted by the special education teacher. I doubt that this kind of testing can tell you what sort of schooling is most ideal for your child. Part of that is personality.

I would highly recommend arranging an extended visit to any private school you are considering. Both my kids attend a private alternative school that requires students have a 3-day visit before being admitting. After the full 3 days, the staff talks to the child and the parents and discusses whether or not the school is a good fit. This is more important to the school than test scores or previous records. It makes so much sense and works out so well, I'm not sure why it isn't the norm. It's silly to think you can walk through a school for 20 minutes, ask a couple of questions, and know whether or not it's a good fit for your child!

[loraxc]

DD only had a very brief IQ test and our results sheets is pretty uninformative. What we DO know is that yes, she is gifted (I mean, we thought so, but...) and that the giftedness is not purely verbal--this is useful, since her verbal skills tend to be more obvious than her nonverbal ones. We also have at least one data point that says she is not profoundly gifted but is more "regular" gifted, which is semi-useful.

As to what it tells me in terms of education...well, on reflection, not all that much that I didn't already know. I think we are going to learn a lot more from seeing how she does at the gifted magnet school next year than we did from the test.

I would have been happier with a more in-depth test. I would also like to see achievement scores, which we don't have. Even then, though...especially since we don't suspect 2E, I think just giving her the work and seeing what she can do with it is more instructive, in a lot of ways.

[emmaegbert]

testing did help put some things into perspective for us. I was surprised at how high DS tested (though I knew he was smart) and I was also interested to see how strong he was in visual/spatial stuff (and he hit the ceiling on several of those subtests, so his 97.7 overall percentile might have actually been low). He was not an early reader or otherwise obviously an outlier, he's very social and gets along well with peers, etc. But, the information did help me lean towards putting him in a more accelerated school for "advanced learners" (they don't actually use the term gifted) rather than a child-centered progressive school. I sometimes wonder whether that decision was right... but my thought after seeing how high he actually tested was that while b/c of his personality and interests he would have surely enjoyed the progressive school at the earlier grades, as he got older and content learning became more important, that he might really not have many peers in that school.

We just went to a pediatric psychologist for the testing. we did not need her as an educational consultant, but she was perfectly able to conduct the WPPSI-III which took about 2 hours and cost $400. (ouch). DS got a scholarship to his private school which in the first year already was more than 70 times that testing fee, so I think it was worth it.

Personally at that age (5) I wouldn't have pursued testing except that it was required for school admission. But once I did it I decided to use the information and think about what it does (and does not) mean.

[SuperSmrtCarbon]

We had our daughter tested in 2nd grade.  The public school was already doing an excellent job with challenging her and other gifted students, but the testing enabled us to enroll her in a gifted weekend program at Northwestern University called the Center for Talent Development.  She has loved the outside enrichment.  Some gifted programs will test your child for you.

________________________________

SuperSmart Carbon:  A Blog Fueling Discussions About Science in Families

[joensally]

If you had him tested and he tested PG, would that change your decision making?  I would recommend going with the assumption that he's gifted with some temperament variables.  I would use that for my decision making more than level of giftedness.  I would look at teacher orientation, curriculum, approach to differentiation.  I would ask potential teachers how they would deal with certain scenarios that you predict would occur. 

I think hoagiesgifted.org does a good job of discussing testing.

Testing was most helpful to the school.   They recognized DS was gifted (as in, the previous testing was in the file and he's pretty out of the box), but seeing the most recent testing made them pay attention and adjust their strategies.  IME, teachers have a lot of ambivalence about gifted.

IMO, a verbally gifted kid is going to master the vast majority of the k-3 curriculum with little effort.  If your son wants to play and socialize, that's developmentally appropriate.  Might you consider putting him in a good public school and then put him in piano and soccer (or equivalent effort=progress)?  Grade 4 is when the rubber starts to hit the road in most schools, and he'll likely have matured/gained focus in the classroom, or would be easier to homeschool.

We have done a wide range of things with our kids - three different specialized public school programs, as well as homeschooling.  There isn't always one right answer, but rather what's best for this year.

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by joensally 

If you had him tested and he tested PG, would that change your decision making?  I would recommend going with the assumption that he's gifted with some temperament variables.  I would use that for my decision making more than level of giftedness.  I would look at teacher orientation, curriculum, approach to differentiation.  I would ask potential teachers how they would deal with certain scenarios that you predict would occur. 

I think hoagiesgifted.org does a good job of discussing testing.

Testing was most helpful to the school.   They recognized DS was gifted (as in, the previous testing was in the file and he's pretty out of the box), but seeing the most recent testing made them pay attention and adjust their strategies.  IME, teachers have a lot of ambivalence about gifted.

IMO, a verbally gifted kid is going to master the vast majority of the k-3 curriculum with little effort.  If your son wants to play and socialize, that's developmentally appropriate.  Might you consider putting him in a good public school and then put him in piano and soccer (or equivalent effort=progress)?  Grade 4 is when the rubber starts to hit the road in most schools, and he'll likely have matured/gained focus in the classroom, or would be easier to homeschool.

We have done a wide range of things with our kids - three different specialized public school programs, as well as homeschooling.  There isn't always one right answer, but rather what's best for this year.

That is a good question - if he were PG, what would I do with that info?  I dunno.  At this point, probably react in a very unhealthy manner.  Or be relieved.  Or be sad.  Probably expect a lot more out of him.  Maybe go to the PS and demand a grade skip?  Maybe I could achieve the same results with some gentle advocacy?

A lot of my angst has to do with my own experience being very gifted and not having anything done for me except math advancement, and a teacher in 4th grade who actively thwarted me.  I don't want my kids to be as bored and unhappy as I was.  And then his teacher at PS this year seriously pissed me off - she said he was answering too many questions, so she moved his desk to the back of the room.  It gave me chills as it was just like my childhood, where if I answered more than one question a day, the teacher and the other kids got annoyed with me.

And I do just want it settled.  I want them all in the same school in a supportive community.