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"Why Do We Let Them Dress That Way?" - Page 5

post #81 of 103

Thank you Storm Bride!! I love your perspective on so much...

 

I feel this, as I said before, I am very well endowed and it is so hard for me to find something to wear, especially during the summer, that doesn't produce quite a bit of cleavage just because I have big boobs and wear very supportive bras that make them look bigger or squished together or whatever.

 

Why do I have to "bear the responsibility" for having naturally large breasts. Should I just simply wear a sweater all the time because men shouldn't have to be expected to control themselves? I get that someone might look at my boobs when I am wearing a tank top or even just a regular shirt but this is the kind of attitude (not yours storm bride) that kept me in sweatshirts all through high school even when it was warm...

 

Men aren't responsible for their checking women's breasts out or staring at them...It's those pesky women who need to understand men aren't accountable for their behavior.shake.gif

post #82 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by journeymom View Post

Lol! Good point. I think she's conflicted. I'll have to go back and read it some time when I'm a bit more focused.


I think she is conflicted too. It's a good piece depicting what a lot of parents may be feeling on this issue.

post #83 of 103



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by waiting2bemommy View Post


 

I'm also finding shopping for a girl for the first time that literally from birth on, EVERYTHING is princess princess princess. I mean, I don't have a vendetta against disney, but I have not seen even ONE shirt displaying, say, a race car, or tools, or even sports (other than cheering pom poms)

 

According to my friend it goes straight from disney princess to hannah montana around 2nd grade and then to straight adult styles by middle school.


Your friend is exaggerating.  My DD, now 9, has never owned a disney princess or hannah montana artical of clothing, and trust me, she always had a ton of clothes (only granddaughter on my side of the family).  Most of the kids in her class do not wear character clothing--they wear jeans, tees, leggings, sweaters, skirts, dresses, ect, in many patterns and colors.  There are girl and unisex racing shirts.  I've seen lacrosse, softball, soccer, tennis, rockclimbing, aviation shirts marketed towards girls--half of that in ye old box store of Target.  At 9, my daughter is in size 14/16 clothing (just about to move into junior sizes--she is tall tall tall but skinny).  There's plenty of appropriate clothing out there.

 

Can you find adult styles?  Sure.  There's smartass shirts out there too, marketed to both genders.  But to say that's all that's out there is ridiculous.  I think this is worth discussing as a society, but at some people we have to get over the hyperbole, KWIM?
 

 

post #84 of 103



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post




But the problem isn't whether or not men get aroused. If that were the case then any person who might potentially cause any other person to become aroused should be covered from head to toe so as to not cause said arousal. The problem is that western society has taught our men and is teaching our boys that if a woman makes them feel that way they have to right to objectify her and disrespect her because "boys will be boys" and "if she doesn't want to be treated like that she shouldn't dress like that". It's a mind set that places the responsibility for one persons actions and words squarely on the shoulder of another person. 

 

There are plenty of men in this world that can be aroused by a woman who is scantily clad or naked without treating her as a sex object. They are capable of saying to themselves "hey, yeah she is hot... But you know this is neither the time nor the place to ignore the fact that she is a person and I should treat her as such." Men who can work with a woman who is wearing a low cut top without staring at her breasts, who can pass a woman on the street that is dressed "skanky" and not say "nice ass, toots!". Men who know that just because a woman is walking through the park completely naked, or just topless, or wearing a string bikini, and still remember that she is someones daughter, and some ones best friend, possibly someones significant other, mother, sister, aunt, that she has a job, and life, and personality. That she is more than just a body that causes a biological reaction, and more than just a potential piece of tail.

 

To put any responsibility on the woman for how she is perceived is not fair to her, and unfortunately gets used often to blame the victim. So long as we put the burden of men's actions on womens shoulders, we won't be able to get rid of the "she had it coming" mind set.

 


Excellent post
 

 

post #85 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post

The fashion industry is really being let off the hook in this article. Have any of you done any shopping for formal dresses these days? OMG, it's SOOOOOOO hard to find a dress that is at least mid-thigh and has some sort of straps... even spaghetti. 

 

Not a problem if your daughter is plus sized.  A lot of that clothing is frumpy.  But I guess that is another topic...
 

 

post #86 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

I wasn't asking "why" with respect to whether or not cleavage is appropriate at work. I've actually worked in many offices where at least some cleavage was quite common - I'm not sure how one would define an "impressive amount", though. However, I was asking "why?" with respect to this precise sentiment:

 

"a women who displays an impressive amount of cleavage at the office certainly bears some responsibility when a man has trouble looking away".

 

I call bs. She has no responsibility for his reaction. None. If he can't look away, then he needs to grow the heck up. She's doesn't have a rope around the back of his head, forcing him to stare at her boobs. There's also no question fo being able to dress exactly how you want at work, if there's a dress code. I cerrtainly had guidelines everywhere that I ever worked, and I actually turned down one job, because the dress code required skirts or dresses for women, and I don't like them. However, I don't think it's disrespectful to anybody to wear a low cut top. (And, fwiw, men have frequently "had trouble looking away" from my boobs in my younger years. It didn't matter if I was wearing a low-cut shirt or not. I wore a DD at 14, and men noticed it. I guess when I was wearing a high-front shirt, it was their fault they "had trouble", but if I happened to be wearing a low-cut one, it was mine? How would that work?)

 


Yes to all that.

 

 

And it's not "girl power" to hold men to the same standards as women, it's equality. Outside of very specific situations, women are taught that it is inappropriate for them to behave in certain ways towards the opposite sex. I'm not sure how to word this effectively, but I'll try. Different expectations for the different genders often fall in favour of the man. Women are expected to sit down and shut up, men are expected to speak their minds. Women are expect to save themselves for marriage regardless of their personal views, men are expected to follow their personal views on the matter. Et cetera, and all that. In this case, where women are expected to be mature individuals and not behave inappropriately to members of the opposite sex, were as men are expected to ogle, catcall, and make inappropriate comments to a provocatively dressed woman, it is different. Women are the ones who benefit from this one because they are the ones being told they are slaves to their baser instinct. Men are the ones taught that they are nothing more then animals in that respect and shouldn't worry about acting like animals if they have the urge too. Because of that, the boys who will eventually become men, learn that they are not responsible for their actions, the woman is, and they have nothing to apologize for when they act like jerks. We have two choices to get rid of this inequality. We can either allow women to behave the same way as men, or require men to behave the same way as women. I personally vote for the latter, because that one is just more fitting to a productive society. (Note: The men v. woman thing is generally speaking, we all know people of both genders who fit better with the other in how they behave.)

 

post #87 of 103

 

And not one woman I've ever asked about the subject has said that she wishes she'd "experimented" more.

Wow, really?  I wish I had experimented more!  

Good posts, MD!

 
post #88 of 103

well, i was a late bloomer (seriously didn't get my d-cups, from then barely there breasts, until AFTER i turned 20) and i had very conservative parents, but attended a very open minded and highly academic highschool. i never had a butt (or maybe i still don't!) and had a very chubby, baby-like face despite a smaller body frame.

 

so what did i do? i dressed as crazy and weird as much as i could. wore the weirdest combinations, sometimes the brightest colors, along with the craziest hair. people i run into from those times always say they liked how i went to school with a lamp shade over my head for a week -- they thought it was hilarious.

 

do i do that stuff now? NOT AS MUCH AS I'D LIKE TO but if i hadn't had that freedom (as secret as it was to my folks most of the time) i think i would have gone crazy.

 

as long as my kid (and my future kids) learn how to treat others with respect and take criticism with grace, i'll let them dress however they darn well please (assuming they are not gonna be breaking the bank with it, hehe)

post #89 of 103

I'm guessing it was someone in this thread that gave me the DDDDC, and for that I thank you. It's been a rough 24 hours and that made me smile.

post #90 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post

I'm guessing it was someone in this thread that gave me the DDDDC, and for that I thank you. It's been a rough 24 hours and that made me smile.



Whoever gave it to you was right on the mark!

post #91 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post

I'm guessing it was someone in this thread that gave me the DDDDC, and for that I thank you. It's been a rough 24 hours and that made me smile.



DDDDC? I looked up old forums which purported to explain this, but I still don't get it. 

post #92 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annie Mac View Post
DDDDC? I looked up old forums which purported to explain this, but I still don't get it. 

Here is a full explanation:
 

http://www.mothering.com/community/wiki/ddddcs-dirty-deeds-done-dirt-cheap

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/74138/who-what-is-ddddc

post #93 of 103


Yes, you so deserve it...and your kids are lucky to have you.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by karne View Post





Whoever gave it to you was right on the mark!



 

post #94 of 103
post #95 of 103

To say that I am infuritated right now would be an understatement.  In what sick and twisted world can a decent human being blame a little girl for something as horrible as this? She wore make up and dressed like a 20-year old...so that means she deserved what happened to her?  WARNING: LINK MAY BE TRIGGERING http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/16/republican-lawmaker-blames-11-year-old-victim-of-alleged-gang-rape/#


Edited by Dr.Worm - 4/8/11 at 8:18am
post #96 of 103

This is all too common. There was a story of a teenager near where I live who was drugged and gang-raped at a party. Someone filmed it on their phone & posted it to Facebook. Despite police & medical evidence that the girl was truly the victim here, she had to leave school because she was getting such a hard time from her fellow students, who blamed her for the attack -- saying that it wasn't really an attack, but consensual. Then there were the obligatory statements by adults who said things along the lines of "what does she expect? She was a party. Drinking alcohol." The idea that the female must be hyper-aware and responsible for what happens TO her is ludicrous, especially when compared to the lack of responsibility accorded to the men who, obviously, were driven crazy by the very presence of a female in their midst. The fact that rape happens even in countries where women are literally covered head to toe, never drink alcohol & rarely even mix with unrelated males is clearly just a weird anomaly. 

post #97 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

That's true if you buy online. I don't buy clothing online (at least, not for anyone except dh). In local shops, clothing selection can be pretty limited, unless I go to more upscale stores that are well outside my budget. It can be done more cheaply, mostly by hitting thrift stores, but that definitely falls into "looking hard enough". I'm lucky, as my kids are dressed almost completey in a combination of very nice Gymboree clothes from my MIL and hand-me-downs of various kinds.


I don't usually buy online either, but I haven't had a problem finding clothes I like (basic, solid pieces without slogans) for my DD (who is admittedly very young) or my nieces who are 7 and 11. Target and Old Navy are my go-to places for inexpensive, basic kids' clothes, and sure there are the slogan tees and other clothes I wouldn't choose, but there's also plenty of regular old clothes in the styles that kids have been wearing for decades. 

 

If someone likes slogan tees or "skimpy" clothing and buys that for her kids, fine, but if a person dresses her kids that way and then proclaims that she doesn't like it but can't find anything else, that'd be disingenuous. (ETA: Of course, as kids get older they have more and more control over what they wear -- I know I hid outfits in my backpack sometimes as a teen! But I'm talking about what parents buy for their kids, and the parents who claim that there's literally nothing except what they deem to be objectionable clothing sold in stores.) 

post #98 of 103

Yeah it INFURIATES me to no end!! Blame the victim.  It makes me want to throw up.  I have an eleven-year-old dd and glad we have a good relationship and I hate that I have to tell her something as common-sense as "even if a girl is wearing underwear at midnight and walking down the alley she doesn't deserve to be raped."

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annie Mac View Post

This is all too common. There was a story of a teenager near where I live who was drugged and gang-raped at a party. Someone filmed it on their phone & posted it to Facebook. Despite police & medical evidence that the girl was truly the victim here, she had to leave school because she was getting such a hard time from her fellow students, who blamed her for the attack -- saying that it wasn't really an attack, but consensual. Then there were the obligatory statements by adults who said things along the lines of "what does she expect? She was a party. Drinking alcohol." The idea that the female must be hyper-aware and responsible for what happens TO her is ludicrous, especially when compared to the lack of responsibility accorded to the men who, obviously, were driven crazy by the very presence of a female in their midst. The fact that rape happens even in countries where women are literally covered head to toe, never drink alcohol & rarely even mix with unrelated males is clearly just a weird anomaly. 



 

post #99 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by limabean View Post




I don't usually buy online either, but I haven't had a problem finding clothes I like (basic, solid pieces without slogans) for my DD (who is admittedly very young) or my nieces who are 7 and 11. Target and Old Navy are my go-to places for inexpensive, basic kids' clothes, and sure there are the slogan tees and other clothes I wouldn't choose, but there's also plenty of regular old clothes in the styles that kids have been wearing for decades. 

 

We don't have Target here...maybe Old Navy, though. I'm not sure.


I can find the non-slogan stuff, but it's not at all easy, tends to be more expensive and is a big hassle. (I don't mind some of it, but some of it is just obnoxious...and a boy only needs so many shirts with balls, trucks or dinosaurs on them!) I could do it now, if I needed to, but I'm not sure I'd have been able to when ds1 was younger. I didn't drive, didn't have much money, and didn't have much time. That combination makes finding the stores - not close by - that might carry the stuff you're looking for (but might not, and you won't know until you get there) into a really, really major hassle. When there are stores all over the place, it really shouldn't be that big a deal to find a basic shirt, yk?

 

If someone likes slogan tees or "skimpy" clothing and buys that for her kids, fine, but if a person dresses her kids that way and then proclaims that she doesn't like it but can't find anything else, that'd be disingenuous.

 

I think that really depends on a person's circumstances, to some extent. It just shouldn't be such a hassle, imo.


 

 

post #100 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Worm View Post

Yeah it INFURIATES me to no end!! Blame the victim.  It makes me want to throw up.  I have an eleven-year-old dd and glad we have a good relationship and I hate that I have to tell her something as common-sense as "even if a girl is wearing underwear at midnight and walking down the alley she doesn't deserve to be raped."

 



 


There was a blog I read a while ago (sorry, couldn't find it again) by a mom who described her conversation with her 11 year old son. Her son told her he felt left out because he didn't have a girlfriend and had never kissed a girl. She was a little surprised, given his age, but decided to run with it by asking him open-ended questions. It came out during the conversation that there was a girl in his class who had kissed three (ack!) boys, and he thought that was a bit much, and even her sister was embarrassed by it. She asked him a series of questions: did the boys not want to kiss her? No, they were into it. Did the boys kiss too much too, seeing as they were consensually involved? No, the boys' behaviour was fine, it was just the girl. She talked him around to see the error of his logic and his double standard...but by the age of 11, he had absorbed the attitude that the girls are held to a different standard than the boys. Thankfully, this kid has a good mom to explain it to him, but what about the ones that don't? 

 

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