Let's talk table manners and siblings

[ProtoLawyer]

I'm not sure exactly what to call this...anyhow.

I have an 8-month-old son and an 8-year-old stepdaughter.

The stepdaughter is and has been for years EXTREMELY picky. White carbs with an occasional apple thrown in. Tomato sauce (and at her mom's, canned green beans, but not the same brand of canned green beans at our house) is the only vegetable she'll eat. She's neurotypical, it's just control.

Anyhow--we're working on "it doesn't matter if you think it looks or smells gross, unless there's actually a bug in it, keep that to yourself," because, frankly, we're all sick of hearing gagging noises and "no offense, but are kids really supposed to eat this?" at dinner. (We don't cook anything weird when she's around--sometimes it's something simple, like the wrong kind of chicken noodle soup, that sets her off. Her mom apparently makes her take three bites of whatever she's served, I have no idea how, but that doesn't work here--she'd literally be at the table all night and into the next day before she'd let something she's not hungry for pass her lips. She's lived on air some weekends because she's not only refused what we made, but refused to get herself cereal or fruit, which she's free to do.)

But a new wrinkle has developed--she absolutely cannot stand to see her brother eat (she's OK with him nursing or bottle feeding, but not solids). She'll actually do things like put a napkin over her eyes, wiggle under the table, make the aforementioned gagging noises, etc. and protest loudly "if I DON'T EXPRESS MYSELF I'LL EXPLODE!" when informed that she's acting rudely. We try ignoring it, but she won't stop, and will in fact get louder.

It doesn't matter what he eats, either--at first, she didn't like light-colored stuff because it looked like spit-up when it came back out, but now it's everything--even when he holds a strip of meat or a slice of ripe peach and gums it. It's messy and "it makes me want to barf."

We want to eat as a family (in restaurants, too, while he's still well behaved enough in public to take him to family ones), but she's making this impossible. My son is not content to sit in a high chair and play while others eat, either, so feeding him before or after we eat would make meals loud and miserable on his end.

Yeah, again, I'm sure it's less about food and more about the reality of having a sibling after almost 8 years as an only child, but still. It's wearing thin and I'm not sure I see this losing steam. Any advice?

[doubledutch]

as for the gagging and comments, my boys (4 on friday, and 5.5) would be given the choice to stop or leave the table.  they don't do what she's doing, but they do other rude things and after a warning, i remove their plate.  their dinner is over.  [we went through a phase like that for a couple of weeks, during which i removed someone's plate or told him to do it himself, probably a total of five times.  phase is over.]  we cosleep and have a similar rule there - if you can't share the bed nicely, then you may go sleep in your own bed.  if she can't share a meal nicely, then she may leave, and feed herself later if she chooses or "live on air" if she chooses - but the rest of you don't have to tolerate her behavior while you're eating.

as for whether and what she'll eat, i think you are doing it right by offering the whole family a meal, which she can eat or not, and having other things available that she can get for herself anytime if she wants to.  i'd just leave it at that.  the only other thing i'd suggest is, honestly, to cook whatever you want for dinner (not avoiding "weird" stuff if it's what you & dh would want).  it's considerate to make something everyone can eat, when someone has a strong preference to avoid a few particular foods, but when it's, like, every food under the sun - i would not cater to that.

[NiteNicole]

Originally Posted by doubledutch 

as for the gagging and comments, my boys (4 on friday, and 5.5) would be given the choice to stop or leave the table.  they don't do what she's doing, but they do other rude things and after a warning, i remove their plate.  their dinner is over.  [we went through a phase like that for a couple of weeks, during which i removed someone's plate or told him to do it himself, probably a total of five times.  phase is over.]  we cosleep and have a similar rule there - if you can't share the bed nicely, then you may go sleep in your own bed.  if she can't share a meal nicely, then she may leave, and feed herself later if she chooses or "live on air" if she chooses - but the rest of you don't have to tolerate her behavior while you're eating.

as for whether and what she'll eat, i think you are doing it right by offering the whole family a meal, which she can eat or not, and having other things available that she can get for herself anytime if she wants to.  i'd just leave it at that.  the only other thing i'd suggest is, honestly, to cook whatever you want for dinner (not avoiding "weird" stuff if it's what you & dh would want).  it's considerate to make something everyone can eat, when someone has a strong preference to avoid a few particular foods, but when it's, like, every food under the sun - i would not cater to that.

I agree.  I have a five year old who knows if she doesn't like something on her plate, her job is to just pretend it isn't there.  If someone (my husband, apparently I can't teach him ANYTHING) ASKS her if she likes it (why?  WHY ASK?) then she can just say, "No, thank you" and that's the end of it. 

I would not get into a battle with her but I wouldn't have every meal hijacked by someone being rude.  And I certainly wouldn't want her doing all the "oh gross, gag" stuff when my younger child was old enough to understand and pick it up.

[doubledutch]

i forgot about the restaurant thing.  does she enjoy going to restaurants other than her gross-out factor with the baby eating?  if she does, this would be my plan, cleared ahead of time with dh.  offer her a meal at a restaurant, with the understanding that she will not make rude noises or rude comments - she will just have to ignore the things that bother her and try to enjoy her food and the time with the family.  if she can't agree to that ahead of time, or if she agrees but then still does that stuff at the restaurant, she doesn't get to eat at a restaurant.  that's why you need dh to be on board, so you know ahead of time that one of you will leave with dd while the other stays with ds to finish the meal and pay.  when my boys were a little younger, either their dad or i would often need to leave the table with whichever one couldn't handle it anymore.  we still all drove home together, but often he would take the squirrely one outside to walk, or into a nearby store, or out to the car.  whatever works.

if she doesn't like going to restaurants, then don't go when you have her.

edited to add: i would also tell her, "we will go to restaurants again after you've had some practice at home," and really truly not bring her out to eat until she's proven at home that she can keep her comments to herself and not gag or do other rude stuff during meals with her brother.

[ProtoLawyer]

Thanks.

Yes, she does enjoy going to restaurants, especially brunch, and, as we have her most weekends, that's when we'd be going. Making things more complex is that my husband is in the last weeks (thank goodness!) of a political campaign, so we're rushing around and not cooking as much as we normally do. Things should get back to "normal" soon on that front.

I do like the advice to "pretend it isn't there" if it's something she doesn't like. We've never used those terms and I think that might help.

As for not serving weird things when she's around--we don't usually make weird things at all (at least, I don't think they're weird--others might, since we do a lot of Asian cooking--Thai, Indian, Japanese), but I've been asked "what are you serving her, deer brains?" before. We do try the usual things to keep meals pleasant--we make at least one thing we know she likes, even if that one thing is rice or buttered noodles, and, because we're encouraging her to try stuff, I don't make anything super-spicy (and just leave a bottle of Sriracha available for those who do want heat). Last night, I made pork with mushrooms and bok choi, and we had rice. She ate a spoonful of the rice, made faces at the pork, and used her napkin to hide her brother from her view. But even things like macaroni or pizza will get the "eew" treatment if they're the wrong kind (if there are PEAS anywhere near the macaroni, or if the pizza is from the local pizza place and not Domino's, that sort of thing). So yeah, we don't do a ton of accommodating. I'm willing to accommodate some preferences (my husband doesn't like cheese, except on pizza, so I rarely cook with it, though I'll occasionally purchase a piece for myself), and of course legitimate health or ethical objections would factor in, but when it's down to nothing, well, no.

The point about quelling things before my son gets old enough to pick up on it is a big one, too--we've also gotten the "my MOM SAID it's healthy to express my emotions" thing when we've told her that she wasn't allowed to insult her brother even though he's too young to take offense. We do let her know that she's entitled to her emotions, even negative ones, but she's not entitled to say hurtful things.

[NiteNicole]

Maybe someone needs to point out that emotions and opinions are not the same. 

[ProtoLawyer]

Originally Posted by NiteNicole 

Maybe someone needs to point out that emotions and opinions are not the same. 

That's a good point, too.

[AnnieA]

That type of behavior would earn her an immediate dismissal from the table at our house, regardless of if we were eating at a restaurant or at home. If she was able to get herself under control and come back to join us, great. If not, she can wait until the next meal/snack is served and try again. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

WRT to the "expressing emotions" thing, perhaps she needs to be introduced to the idea that there is more than one way to express your emotions? Emotions can also be expressed through journaling, dancing to music, going off alone and screaming, etc. I would buy her a special notebook and whenever she has a negative emotion regarding her sibling, she can go to her room and write ALL about it in the journal. She is certainly entitled to her emotions and opinions but she's not allowed to hurt other family members.

[LaughingHyena]

I have some sympathies with not wanting to watch babies eat, I hate it too. There are still meals I don't cook that often because I find it hard to watch my own kids eat them. Safe to say I did not enjoy the starting solids phase.

I have to wonder if she has some texture issues with foods, you say she'll eat one brand of something bit not another. Have you ever tried to analyse with her what's different about the different types. Maybe have a game of blind folding each other and seeing if you can tell them apart that way?

I agree that even when her issues are genuine it's not OK for her to make comments  that will upset her brother. Maybe it would help to keep a washcloth handy so you can give him a quick wipe if he gets too messy, then talk with her to find a way to ask for him to be wiped. I would not want to interrupt his eating too often for that so there would probably be a fair amount of "I'll get to it when he finished that piece of peach" type answers.

Finally where are you all sitting, I find it better to sit next to my messiest child than directly opposite.

On the other hand it may not turn out to be a huge problem, by the time your DS is old enough to understand the comments he may well be a neater eater.

[LynnS6]

As Laughing Hyena said, I wonder if there's a couple of issues:

1. Issue one: Control and rudeness. That you've gotten good advice on. I'd add to your repertoire: You're free to express your emotions, but you're not free to make the whole family suffer for it. If you need to be that vocal about it, you can go to your room.

2. Sensory/texture issues. I've got a kid with sensory issues (and husband with even worse sensory issues), and yes, they feel/taste minute things that the rest of the world doesn't. I would recommend more sauces on the side, and perhaps even a divided plate or little bowls to keep things from touching. You might also try raw veggies. My kids will eat raw carrots, for example, and won't touch cooked carrots. But, ds' carrots sit off his plate so they don't touch anything else. For the things that she won't eat, it might help YOU to reframe the issue as she has trouble with texture/flavor or whatever, rather than as a battle of wills. (The one major mistake my dh's parents made was to make his food texture issues a battle of wills. Guess who won? Guess who eats no veggies?)

Where does she sit at the table? Our family table is set up so the 2 kids are facing each other. But if I had a child who was complaining, I'd have them sit to the side of their sibling so they can't see them without looking directly. And then repeat "If it bothers you, don't look."

[rightkindofme]

You are dealing with a complicated situation.  You have new sibling issues, bended family issues, and it sounds like she's a spirited kid anyway.  Oh man.  On the texture thing--I'm neurotypical and it sounds like she has the same food issues I have.  I have to seriously fight off my gag reflex if someone chews in front of me in a gross way.  I have vomited from children trying to be gross/funny.  It's not my favorite.  It has been a very slow and gradual process for me to learn to like other foods and as much as my mom did wrong... I am glad she never pushed food stuff.  She let me eat Ramen three meals a day.  Now I eat all kinds of weird vegetables. :)  I had to get here on my own though.  I absolutely believe you when you say that it's mostly control stuff (I've been reading your stuff for a long time) but try to keep a small piece of your mind in the camp of believing her that food might actually be that awful for her.  I'm not sure how I remained healthy throughout childhood.  I really just couldn't handle food.

That said, you are 100% right that she can learn manners regardless of her food issues.  I would totally excuse her from the table if she cannot be civil.  Heck no.  She can come back after everyone else has finished and eat then.

[MAMom]

Have you tried involving her in the shopping/meal planning/cooking process?  I don't have picky eaters, but even still, being involved helps them eat (or at least try) a wider variety of things.  DS (7.5) loves to look through cook books and choose things to make.   

Things like make-your-own pizzas (where they helped make the dough) or fruit smoothies of their choice also always go over well.

When we are shopping, each child gets to pick 2 vegetables at the farm or grocery store that they will be willing to eat that week.  Fruits are never an issue, but I do also ask if they have a preferance.  They each get to request a meal at least once per week, which I usually make (or some variation of).

Both DS & DD (5) are more inclined to eat a meal that might not be their favorite if they participated in preparing it/cooking it.  They both can do things like peel & chop vegetables, spin dry lettuce for salad, sautee at the stove, gather ingredients, measure, stir, set the table, etc.  I also ask DS to do other things, like read a recipe for me.

As far as the behavior at the dinner table, I might give her the option of eating before or after the rest of the family (or sitting at a different table - I'm thinking a kid-size table that you could mive into the kitchen, if you have one of those?)  if she's really that bothered by it. 

I would say, that while DH & I love Asian cooking, my kids just don't, so I either serve the components to them plain (chicken & veggies or beans & veggie) without any sauces or spices, or I serve them a meal, and DH & I order takeout.