Just a question.... - Page 2

[jenP]

Originally Posted by PediNP 

Babies can and do sleep through circs on an hourly basis. I have never seen one "pass out" from pain. If they use a penile block, then there is zero pain during the procedure.

I would truly love to see video of the babies sleeping peacefully from start to finish of the procedure (i.e. they just peacefully drift off to sleep, without screaming for a while first.) I would also love to see EEG/EKG evidence that the "sleep" they experience is identical to normal infant sleep - that their brainwaves, heart rate, etc. are not any different from a healthy, unstressed baby sleeping in its mother's arms.

[SubliminalDarkness]

I can only speak to the one experience I witnessed... My second son's. The OB applied a numbing cream and then the procedure was done about 20 minutes later. He was strapped down, and fussed a bit about that, but that was the end of it. He didn't cry, nor did he go to sleep. He didn't seem to experience any discomfort afterwards, during diaper changes, or when he peed or anything. He nursed, he slept, he was a normal newborn. 

[CatholicBFMama]

Originally Posted by treeoflife3 

I loved giving birth completely naturally!  It was absolutely amazing and I can't wait to do it again.  However the shots I got to get stitched up made me scream and cry and were easily literally the worst part of the entire last 9 months prior to those shots including the three month long 'morning' sickness and the constant bad hip pain the last month and the 'ring of fire' at crowning AND the charlie horse I got just before crowning.  In fact next time I sincerely might just skip the shot altogether and get stitched up with nothing more than my remembering how awful the numbing shots are if I need to be stitched up again.  I couldn't imagine making ANYONE take something like that for something so unnecessary, most especially a tiny little baby.
 

I didn't mean to imply I had a bad birth experience--I didn't. I've had all 3 of my babies naturally, but I'm not going to lie and say it didn't hurt.  I just meant to stress how much the lidocaine injections hurt by comparing them to the intensity of the birth process. FYI, my tearing was also internal, since my daughter came out with her arm up by her face.  It's a testament to my midwives that I never tore externally, and only had minimal tearing along that scar tissue during my 2 subsequent births, which isn't something anyone could have prevented.  

[CatholicBFMama]

I remember being told when I was working in the nursery years ago that the babies cry more out of frustration of being strapped down than any actual pain they're feeling during the procedure. I bought that at the time, but now after having 3 children I believe that's a bunch of crap. The sound of a "pain" cry is totally different from that of a "frustration" cry, even in a newborn, and what I heard during the circ I witnessed was pain. 

[jenP]

This reminds me of the movie "Cut." In it, there is an OB who performs circumcisions both as on OB and as a Mohelet. When she is being interviewed, she explains that the babies cry because of being exposed to cold when their clothes are removed and because of being held down. Later in the show, they show her performing a circumcision. The baby does not cry or fuss AT ALL as he is laid down on his back on a table. He does not cry or fuss AT ALL when his bottom clothes and diaper are removed. He does not cry or fuss AT ALL when his groin is swabbed with gauze soaked in betadine (and we all know how cold and icky it feels to be swabbed with betadine.) He does not cry or fuss AT ALL when the woman begins touching and moving his penis. His high-pitched, loud, scared and pained screaming begins the very second she closes the hemostat clamp on his foreskin, and it doesn't stop until the procedure is all over and the screaming turns to a hiccuping crying as his mother holds him.

I am amazed at the cognitive dissonance that this woman displayed. How she can go on believing that babies cry during circumcision because of cold or annoyance at their position, when right there in front of her was a baby who was not at all bothered by nakedness, being held down on his back, or being cold. What he really seemed to mind was the CLAMP and the SCALPEL on his genitals.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by jenP 

This reminds me of the movie "Cut." In it, there is an OB who performs circumcisions both as on OB and as a Mohelet. When she is being interviewed, she explains that the babies cry because of being exposed to cold when their clothes are removed and because of being held down. Later in the show, they show her performing a circumcision. The baby does not cry or fuss AT ALL as he is laid down on his back on a table. He does not cry or fuss AT ALL when his bottom clothes and diaper are removed. He does not cry or fuss AT ALL when his groin is swabbed with gauze soaked in betadine (and we all know how cold and icky it feels to be swabbed with betadine.) He does not cry or fuss AT ALL when the woman begins touching and moving his penis. His high-pitched, loud, scared and pained screaming begins the very second she closes the hemostat clamp on his foreskin, and it doesn't stop until the procedure is all over and the screaming turns to a hiccuping crying as his mother holds him.

I am amazed at the cognitive dissonance that this woman displayed. How she can go on believing that babies cry during circumcision because of cold or annoyance at their position, when right there in front of her was a baby who was not at all bothered by nakedness, being held down on his back, or being cold. What he really seemed to mind was the CLAMP and the SCALPEL on his genitals.

I am going to have to watch it again to see that, I don't remember; the problem is I can't stand those parts of the film.
 

[campbellsoup]

I appreciate all this feedback.  Especially hearing from nurses and parents who were present is helpful.  More than one poster has mentioned that if "appropriate" pain relief is given, they don't always wait for it to take affect.  How do we know this?  If a doctor realizes this is a painful procedure and opts for a "real" pain medication and not sugar water..... why would he not wait for it to take full affect?  Surely he is aware of the amount of time it takes.    

It seems people agree that the penile block is the best option for blocking pain..... any shot in that sensitive area would be painful ..... but are posters comparing it with lidocaine or is it lidocaine?

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

It is lidocane or the equivalent of it like novicane or one of those types of numbing meds.

I wish I knew why some Dr's didnt wait. All I can come up with is that they feel that since the baby wont remember the pain then it is OK to inflict it. Or they are just so wrapped up in the precedure itself that they dont think about the baby itself.

[LiLStar]

or the pain medication is for the parents. "oh, of COURSE there will be pain relief. I'll give him a nice numbing shot, it'll be fine!"

[Galatea]

Also, even a Dorsal Penile Nerve Block, which is the best they can do, does not touch the Pudendal Nerve, which innervates the underside of the penis.  All this discussion of "It does not hurt" is a disgusting relic of the time when they used to do open heart surgery on babies with nothing but muscle relaxants.  EVEN IF CIRCUMCISION WERE ENTIRELY PAINLESS DURING AND AFTER, IT DOES NOT MAKE IT OK.  Removing part of another person's body without their permission is never okay.

[tammylsmith]

Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X 

they are just so wrapped up in the precedure itself that they don't think about the baby itself.

Replace "baby" with "patient" and I think this can be said for a lot of cases in Western medicine. Doctors can forget they are doing the procedure to an actual person, and it's easier for them to just focus on the procedure itself (especially if they repeat it often) than to feel empathy. I think it can often become how to make it quicker and easier for themselves. I know that was the case with cesareans where I delivered my son. One of the nurses was visiting with me (I delivered in the middle of the night on a weekend... not a convenient time for doctors so thus not a busy time on the L&D floor) and told me there were several times a specific doc would just look at his watch after a little while and say "let's just go ahead and section this one so we can get to lunch/dinner etc."  (I'll bet he's the kind of OB who doesn't take the time for pain meds to take effect for the poor baby either) Forgetting that "this one" was a laboring mother who might not wish to have surgery just for the doctor's convenience. I think it is sad to say, but nobody is really thinking of the pain the baby is feeling because the baby can't stand up for himself and the parents don't know any better. I think this, of all the aspects of RIC, is what makes me the most  upset . If people would just take a second and THINK. It is all so senseless, and I envy my European friends who never had to deal with this particular brand of ignorance.

[campbellsoup]

I began this forum by saying I was against circumcision.  If it was completely pain free.... I still would not have done it to my boys.   But some parents do, which is why I was wondering about protocol.  

[WaitingForKiddos]

A few things...

A friend had her son circumcised in the hospital soon after birth. It was a weekend and the doctor (a pediatrician) stated he was in a hurry as he came into the room to collect the baby for the circumcision. As the nurse and baby were returning the mom heard his cries from the hallway. The nurse handed her the baby saying "I don't think the doctor waited for the anesthesia to take affect." and then offered a few doses of baby Tylenol. So, maybe the doctor was in a hurry and didn't wait...maybe he didn't use anything at all. We'll never know. However having spoke to her the day after the circumcision and then now...months later...she doesn't seem nearly as upset as she was originally. I might use her tone to talk about when my baby bonked his head after loosing his balance while learning to stand. She lost that mama bear quality to her anger that her child was harmed. 

Another friend went to a clinic situation for her son's circumcision. She states 'it was traumatic' and that the baby was brought back to her 'red, crying, and hoarse from screaming'. She too has lost the passion in her voice when she talks about it. 

I visited a cousin and her new 10 day old baby. As we were admiring the new baby the cousin mentioned that he was circumcised 3 days previous. A while later I was holding the baby who was sound asleep laying prone in my lap. Suddenly his arms flailed outwards and he screamed. Cousin responded "oh, he must have peed. He does that when he pees...I guess he's still healing." She took the baby upstairs where he continued to scream. 

I have friends who have gotten degrees and furthered their education and who also circumcised their sons. Every single one either claims that the baby was 'more upset by being strapped down' (versus the actual cutting/scraping/slicing/probing) or chose not to be present because they felt it would be too traumatic for themselves to watch. These are thinking, strong women. Many fought for their desired births, nursed etc. There's a giant disconnect with them. 

Perhaps my son was just easy going as a newborn, but he never cried upon being undressed gently, having a diaper changed or even having his legs opened up as I did my mama-inspecting. I think that 'time heals all wounds' when it comes to moms remembering their sons the days following circumcision. Along with the worry over the umbilical cord falling off, cradle cap, and cutting fingernails...it just drifts away as time goes by and parenting becomes less chaotic as it is those first days. 

[Galatea]

I think it is cognitive dissonance.  I visceral, primal reaction SHOULD happen when one's baby is injured, but our big, novel brains get in the way.  We cannot stand the pain of "My baby is bloody and crying and it is my fault" and so we transmute that pain into "It was a good thing and no big deal."  How else could we live with it?

[CatholicBFMama]

Originally Posted by WaitingForKiddos 

I have friends who have gotten degrees and furthered their education and who also circumcised their sons. Every single one either claims that the baby was 'more upset by being strapped down' (versus the actual cutting/scraping/slicing/probing) or chose not to be present because they felt it would be too traumatic for themselves to watch. These are thinking, strong women. Many fought for their desired births, nursed etc. There's a giant disconnect with them. 

Perhaps my son was just easy going as a newborn, but he never cried upon being undressed gently, having a diaper changed or even having his legs opened up as I did my mama-inspecting. I think that 'time heals all wounds' when it comes to moms remembering their sons the days following circumcision. Along with the worry over the umbilical cord falling off, cradle cap, and cutting fingernails...it just drifts away as time goes by and parenting becomes less chaotic as it is those first days. 

They think this because this is what the doctor will tell them. Having observed a circ, I know this is a load of horse manure.

My son is also very laid back and doesn't get upset over anything. He only cries when he's tired, hungry, uncomfortable, or just wants his mama. He has slept well since day 1 and is a great eater. I wonder how different things would be if I had subjected him to circumcision.