others comparing GD-ed kids to non-GD-ed kids

[July09Mama]

Sorry for the crappy title, I wasn't sure exactly what I was trying to say.

Tonight my dh and I took our almost 2 year old dd to a concert by my old college choir. We live far away and they were doing a tour that only happens every few years, so we really wanted to go and I wanted to bring dd to meet everyone. She behaved decently, about what you would expect from a 1 1/2 year old. DH took her out a lot, so she wasn't bothering anyone very often. We did get a lot of comments about how cute she was and all.

At the end of the concert, the director (who was my director and I know he's a super nice guy) took a moment to shake hands with 2 little boys (like 5 and 7-ish) who were sitting in the front and had been super well-behaved the whole time. The thing is, I know that family and I know those boys would never move or make noise, because they would definitely be punished. When we were pregnant, the mom "helped us out" by recommending all of the Pearl family books . We broke ties and aren't friends with them anymore because it just kills me to see their little boys, who are obviously very obedient but I know the cost. It's so not worth it. 

It just bothers me, though, to know that someday others may think poorly of my dd because she doesn't behave like those kinds of kids. And honestly, it makes me feel bad that others may think I'm not doing a good job as a parent if my dd doesn't just listen and do as she is told. I don't want that to be my measuring stick for how I judge my parenting and my family, but it's so hard when that's what gets kids noticed and what makes others praise them. Obviously, I know that at this point, my dd is much younger than those boys and I'm sure no one was directly comparing them tonight, but I also know that as she gets older, without the threat of violence, I won't be able to "make" her behave like those children do. I don't even know what I'm looking for, just wondering if anyone else has had these thoughts? Do you feel judged because you don't punish your children like others think you should?

[eli.]

I just want to say that using gentle disciple does NOT mean your children will wild.  While certainly fear of punishment is one reason children could be quiet at a concert, others could be enjoying listening to the music, respecting the people around them, and understanding the expectations for such an event. 

People comment all the time on how kind, polite, and well behaved our son is.  We don't take him to events that we do not think he can handle.  He sat for several hours happily at age 2.5 at Cirque du Solei because he was mesmerized, but even now I wouldn't expect more than 5 or 10 minutes of quiet sitting at a concert simply because he prefers to enjoy music by dancing to it. 

I wouldn't probably consider it now, at age 3, however at age 6, if there was an event of, for example, classical music that I wanted him to attend with me I would start introducing the music quite a while in advance - first modeling sitting or lying quietly to soak it in, then inviting him to try the same with me, suggesting he close his eyes, breath with the music, let his mind make pictures to it, etc.  I would also talk to him about how other people enjoy having quiet when they listen to this type of music so that can hear it with no distractions.   Then IF I thought he could appreciate this type of event, I would be happy to bring him.  If not, I would make other arrangements.

Harsh discipline teaches kids to behave when they think they will get caught, it doesn't teach them to do what's right because it's the right thing to do.  Gentle discipline includes limits, age appropriate expectations, structure, and appropriate consequences.  Your 1.5 year old sounds like a normal 1.5 year old but, even without rewards and punishments, as she gets older she can learn to function in the world you live in. 

I wouldn't worry!

[nd_deadhead]

I completely agree with eli - punitive discipline id by far not the only way to have well-behaved kids! When my twin boys were 4, we took a 36-hour train ride. We had a sleeping car, so we were by ourselves much of the time, but we ate all our meals in the dining car, and hung out in the observation car. Several people commented to us about how quiet and well-behaved the boys were - in fact, the people in the compartment next to ours said they hardly knew we were there. The boys loved the train,a nd we had a whole suitcase full of toys, puzzles, games, and snacks to keep them content. Meeting their needs does a LOT more for their behavior than threat of punishment. They also understood about respecting others - because they were treated with respect. As Eli said, when kids know what is expected of them, they can strive to meet those expectation.

[HollyBearsMom]

Using punitive parenting methods no more guarantees well behaved children in the same way that GD does not guarantee your children will misbehave or be unable to handle themselves in such an environment. 

We are pretty much AP and are absolutely GD and have a very well behaved child who would have sat quietly during a concert. He has attended Broadway plays from an early age and we dine regularly at higher end restaurants. At 9 he can handle himself well in any social situation and you know what?  We have never beaten him with a stick! 

[Juvysen]

At dh's company Christmas party, they had a magic kind of show (the "bubbleman") for the kids. Most of the kids were jumping up and yelling... these were school-aged kids who I'd assume would know how to sit for an assembly and not be crazy. The "bubbleman" had to keep asking them to sit down. My 4 and 3 yr olds sat so nicely (i was chasing the baby off to the side, but could see them). I was sort of shocked and impressed. I don't think they're mutually exclusive

[Shaki]

DD has never been threatened with violence, has never had a time out. She is a polite well behaved kid (most of the time ;) ). So I agree with PP's that GD does not equal kids behaving in inappropriate ways just because they aren't scared of getting hit or punished. Our relationship is based on mutual respect which is why she generally listens to me etc. She also expects me to listen to her and lets me know when I am not!

I do think temperament plays into it as well...this is just the kind of kid she is--she's quiet. It's got nothing to do with my parenting. My Niece has a more fiery temper and has also been raised "GD" style. She is the one more likely to act out in public, not because her parents are doing anything "wrong" but just because that's her temperament.

So I think comparing kids and "blaming" parents for parenting wrong is a slippery slope--no matter which way you look at it. I mean someone could look at my quiet DD and assume I'd crushed her spirit with harsh discipline or whatever.

[mamanicki]

This gets much easier when your kids are older. Because then the proof is in the pudding. As others have said, GD kids aren't necessarily wild. They are actually self-disciplined so their non-GD'd peers are MORE likely (in my experience) to be wild and crazy in situations where they think they can get away with it (which seems to grow as they get older and test and test and test).

I have been in several situations lately where very violent parents of preschoolers have casually mentioned beating their own kids, the necessity of beating kids in general and how XYZ Well Behaved Child is obviously beaten regularly. You don't really hear much of this from parents of older kids. I feel like it's because parents of preschoolers who beat their kids feel the need to justify what they do by convincing themselves (and everyone else) that violent parenting = better behaved children. I wonder if they feel guilty or unsure? I don't really feel the need to make similar claims about GD to total strangers when I see well behaved children. In fact I don't even wonder such things, generally. It is so strange to me. If I'm feeling up to it, I'll say something back about how my kids have never been punished and they are well-behaved too but generally I know it's falling on deaf ears and is exactly opposite of what they want to hear so I don't bother.

I have to say, to answer your question, I've had the opposite experience now that my oldest kids are teens. People comment all the time on what great kids they are. One is calmer than the other by nature but they are both very self-disciplined.

[rissierae]

You know, I don't think that the general public really thinks about all of the different "methods" of discipline when they look at a kid's behavior.  I don't think a lot of people even know about GD, or what it's really about.  At least I wasn't aware of all of the different kinds of discipline that there are before I had kids.  People just tend to think either that kid is well behaved or not.  Then again, I could be completely naive.

[heathera1978]

We get complimented all the time on how well my 8 year old behaves in public.  It wasn't always that way though.  There were a couple of times in his younger years that he was acting up and we had to leave whatever activity we were doing.  He learned that acting up in public will get him taken home and not back to that activity for whatever amount of time.  When we would leave we would have a discussion on the behavior that was inappropriate and tell him what should've been done in the situation, as he got older, we would ask him what should've been done.  We haven't had any problems in public with him for a very long time now.

Hang in there, it can be done!

[dalia]

I was not gentle disciplined and once I gained some independence I immediately began having sex and doing drugs. I'm not kidding! Who cares what others think. What you are doing is ensuring a lifetime of self-confident behavior.

[Fillyjonk]

yes, i think its important to remember that a lot of gd kids WILL behave at concerts. I took my 5 yo and 7 yo to a local coffee morning concert recently and they just sat rapt through some, it thought, quite challenging Bartok. They like music. 

The other side to this is that I wouldn't take them if I didn't think they were ready or willing to sit through it. It wouldh't be fair on anyone. My 3 yo LOVES music but in a concert she will want to get up and dance, and that isn't the done thing (sadly-historically it should be, as I understand it). And so I leave her at home.

[happysmileylady]

I think you have a lot of assumptions going on here.  First you have the assuption that the ONLY reason those kids were so well behaved was because they are afraid of being punished.  As if they couldn't possibly have been so well behaved because they were actually enjoying the show.  Then there's the assumption that goes along with that, that kids who are punished are NEVER taught right from wrong and would therefore never do the right thing just because it's the right thing to do.   Just because a kid gets a time out or has to write sentences or whatever as a punishment when incorrect behavior is exhibited that doesn't mean that the kids are never talked to, right and wrong are never explained and so on. 

Then, moving into your chosen style of discipline, you seem to assume it's not going to work.  If you assume that your child will be running around out of control at 6 or 7, why are you following a discipline style that is not going to teach your child any self control?  And you are making assumptions that people are going to judge you for it.

I have to say that I think your post seems to be as judgemental and uninformed about parenting styles different from yours as you seem to assume others feel about you. 

[dalia]

I don't think she was talking about time outs.

Sigh... it never takes long for a thread to go bad.

[hakeber]

Don't worry.  Kids are disciplined in lots of different ways.  One the biggest differences IMO is that a GD parent is slightly better (just my opinion) as reading their child's cues, because they are more interested in talking and finding solutions than the parent who has a read a book and decided THAT is the way to parent ALL children.  This means you will be better equipped in the future to decide if going to a concert is the right decision for your kids or not, and it means that if you HAVE to bring them you will probably bring appropirate tools to help them cope like snacks and a coloring books rather than just threats.

Its possible those kids' parents do all those things, too.  Even those parents who decide in infancy that stricter even sadly violent punishment methods are appropriate for their families also generally develop a whole bag of tricks by the age of 5 that never would occurr to you at age 2.  You learn to bring a change of clothes, a pack crayons, a sheet of stickers, a toy car, a pair of head phones and portable DVD player, god knows what.  You learn that even the threat of violence is not enough if a child is bored, hungry, restless, tired, sad, or whatever, and if their behavior is your key objective, you would never ever rely on spankings as your only deterrent.  You might resort to bribery, but who among us with older children never has? (don't answer that.  If you really have managed to get to 5yo without ever bribing, I am in too much awe to fathom it! :p)

I have had to bring my DS to work with me on occassion and that has meant having him in my office or my classroom.  We have always been a GD family as much as we can (we're only human), and he is really well behaved when I have to bring him to work because he understands the expectations, we have practiced a lot, and I keep the snacks and activities flowing big time.  coloring books, markers, balls in the field, water, juice, crackers, cheese, fruit...etc etc etc.  And I leave as soon as I can.  This is a lot like your DH taking your DD out when she couldn't handle it anymore.

Trust me, the kids learn how to behave by watching more than you'd think.

Also do not under estimate that at 5 and 7 they are children not toddlers and fully capable of enjoying a concert quietly if they have been taught to enjoy that sort of thing (not to say that some toddlers couldn't do that too, but most do not have the core strength to sit still for that long).  Not all kids are wild hellions by nature controlled only by violence.  My son (6) would be quite happy to enjoy a film or a concert quietly for 2-3 hours if it was something he was interested in.  He has watched all the LIFE videos by the BBC (about 6 hours in total) with only 2 30 minutes breaks between.  If it was rock music he'd have to get up and dance, but classical, he'd probably quite enjoy that.  We've never beat him up or threatened to. 

I think the important question to ask is: Why do you think your methods of discipline won't work to give your DD the control she needs to handle events like this at that age?  What makes you think GD is about letting kids run riot in public without any limits?  Maybe you are new to this because your DD is so young and presumably is the only one, but I think you really underestimate the work and effort that goes into GD and how effective it is to teach even young children that they deserve respect and ergo others around them do too. I think your fears about it not being firm enough may have more to do with the preconceived notion that GD doesn't really work to reign kids in.  Keep reading on this board and I think you'll find it is effective and it WILL give your children the sort of guidance, respect and care they need to reflect that into the world.

[Lazurii]

We GD as much as possible; with me coming from an abusive background it can be difficult to keep the yelling out.  My brother and his wife are pretty gentle, but they repress crying and will spank and did CIO.  My niece and my son, BuggaBoo, are 7 months apart, my DS being the elder of the two.

What I have found in my extended family is this:

1)  If my sons acts up, it is attributed to our "leniency".  If he doesn't nap, we're not being strict enough as parents.  If he wakes at night, well, we should have just done CIO.  If he demands to nurse, well, that's because we let him and we didn't wean him at one.  If he screams, well, he'll stop that quick if we would just pop him one.  If he cries, well, he doesn't have a good reason for it, and he's a BOY.

2)  If my niece acts up, she must be having a bad day.  If she doesn't want to nap, then she must really not need one that day.  If she wakes up at night, it must have been a bad dream.  If she asks to nurse, (which she does sometimes when she sees me nurse BuggaBoo, even though she was weaned at 14 months), then she's in need of extra snuggles.  If she screams, it's just the terrible twos and threes.  If she's cries, and they try to repress it and it doesn't work, again with the snuggles, because she must really need to, and she's a GIRL.

I have to say that in the cases of screaming and socially unacceptable behaviors both families will immediately start disciplining their own child, so it's not like we're leaving BuggaBoo to just scream, we just do it differently.

So it seems to me that oftentimes our children act the same.  Those actions, however, are perceived differently because of our different parenting styles.  "Obviously" my brother and sister-in-law are doing all they can, so when my niece gets worked up it's the choice of my niece.  We, however, parent "defectively", so therefore my son acting up is OUR problem.  It also doesn't help that, even though my niece is 7 months behind BuggaBoo developmentally, the children are both firstborn and therefore seen as about the same age.  So when he started his screaming phase she wasn't there yet, and in the minds of the extended family it didn't look food for my son.

Annnnd, that's my $0.02.

[CherryBombMama]

i think i get what you mean, and i tried reading the other posts but they were getting long.

its like, if my child doesnt behave the way that is "acceptable" in the general public, those people are going to think that as a parent, i am not doing my job. i get that feeling from time to time. GD, esp in my area and most esp in my family, is almost unheard of. when my ds does something that, although age appropriate and trivial (like say, knock his baby brother over) the majority of the people surrounding us might think that just because i told him "gentle hands" instead of spanking his butt, will think that im not "disciplining" him. 

and yes, that is judgmental of other parents, but i grew up with alot of these people, i know my culture and i see how mainstream shows show how to "discipline" (like supernanny)

it seems like alot of mamas on MDC dont care what other people think. thats really awesome, i strive to be like that, but for now, like you OP, i still feel the pressure of mainstream parents to do it "right"

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by CherryBombMama 

it seems like alot of mamas on MDC dont care what other people think. thats really awesome, i strive to be like that, but for now, like you OP, i still feel the pressure of mainstream parents to do it "right"

But I believe in my heart that a lot of the behavioral issues that other parents see in their kids or mine is largely to due with how they parent their children, more specifically their own perceptions in the moment.  They pick and choose when a child's behavior is bad and when it's just kids being kids based on their own feelings at the time.  My MIL is notorious for this and I LOATHE it. It's pretty damn unfair to kids.  In the example you give they might say "she's just having a bad day"  but likely not before they try to find a way of coaxing, cajoling or threatening her to stop and "behave". 

I don't speak for everyone, but it's not at all that I do not care what they think.  I believe they are not parenting unintelligently and I argue it at every chance I get.  In fact I DO care, because I believe they are doing themselves and their children a great disservice and I am passionate and confident in my choices as a teacher/parent enough so that I do what I can convince them of my beliefs.  Being punitive is NOT being a disiplinarian. Especially if the punitive nature is entirely subjective to the mood swings of the authoritarian in charge.  

[choli]

Originally Posted by dalia 

What you are doing is ensuring a lifetime of self-confident behavior.

No it isn't. There are no guarantees in child raising.

[MrsH]

HappySmileyLady - I would agree with some of your points, except for the reference the OP to the obedient/quiet boys' parents' recommended parenting source: the Pearl family books.  Check it out on Amazon, it's not gentle.  We're not talking time-outs, we're talking beating. 

[MrsH]

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