others comparing GD-ed kids to non-GD-ed kids - Page 2

[CherryBombMama]

 I understand what youre saying and where youre coming from, but i got the impression that the OP was getting pressure from "mainstream" parents to parent as they do. sometimes i feel this way too, so i was just relating to her.  :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by hakeber 

But I believe in my heart that a lot of the behavioral issues that other parents see in their kids or mine is largely to due with how they parent their children, more specifically their own perceptions in the moment.  They pick and choose when a child's behavior is bad and when it's just kids being kids based on their own feelings at the time.  My MIL is notorious for this and I LOATHE it. It's pretty damn unfair to kids.  In the example you give they might say "she's just having a bad day"  but likely not before they try to find a way of coaxing, cajoling or threatening her to stop and "behave". 

I don't speak for everyone, but it's not at all that I do not care what they think.  I believe they are not parenting unintelligently and I argue it at every chance I get.  In fact I DO care, because I believe they are doing themselves and their children a great disservice and I am passionate and confident in my choices as a teacher/parent enough so that I do what I can convince them of my beliefs.  Being punitive is NOT being a disiplinarian. Especially if the punitive nature is entirely subjective to the mood swings of the authoritarian in charge.  

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by CherryBombMama 

 I understand what youre saying and where youre coming from, but i got the impression that the OP was getting pressure from "mainstream" parents to parent as they do. sometimes i feel this way too, so i was just relating to her.  :)

Quote:

I get that.  I think we all get that.  But I guess I was just asking, if you have chosen GD, why aren't you confident enough to believe not only that it is the best way but more importantly that IT WILL WORK just as well as if not better than violent methods in teaching children how to self-edit and control their behavoir choices?  Why choose a method of discipline you didn't have 110% faith in, especially one that takes so much thought and energy and patience on the parents' part?  Ya know?  If underneath you think the Pearls might be on to something?

Or, more worryingly, in my POV, does she think children should be welcome to those events regardless of their self-monitoring skills and be given free reign as children in any venue to "just be kids"?  because that is NOT GD, that is just inconsiderate parenting.

[schlafmanko]

Regardless of how the kids are normally disciplined, I think it's cool that the director went over and complimented them.  I'm all for other members of society using positive discipline with kids--it doesn't need to be just parents who recognize when things go right--and if those boys are beaten, that makes me feel even better about them getting positive enforcement from other people.  It also makes a difference to me that he complimented the kids directly, not focusing on their mom. 

[CherryBombMama]

sometimes i have self doubt, that doesnt mean that i dont completely believe in GD. sometimes others perceptions of me get the best of me, and seemingly, the OP as well. what is so wrong about that? why does that have to mean that we dont believe in GD? please dont discourage or make others feel bad or question their sincerity about not feeling completely confident in parenting choices. mamas should encourage and reassure each other that feelings of doubt or insecurity is normal. 

this thread is getting off topic

Originally Posted by hakeber 

I get that.  I think we all get that.  But I guess I was just asking, if you have chosen GD, why aren't you confident enough to believe not only that it is the best way but more importantly that IT WILL WORK just as well as if not better than violent methods in teaching children how to self-edit and control their behavoir choices?  Why choose a method of discipline you didn't have 110% faith in, especially one that takes so much thought and energy and patience on the parents' part?  Ya know?  If underneath you think the Pearls might be on to something?

Or, more worryingly, in my POV, does she think children should be welcome to those events regardless of their self-monitoring skills and be given free reign as children in any venue to "just be kids"?  because that is NOT GD, that is just inconsiderate parenting.

[dalia]

Originally Posted by choli 

No it isn't. There are no guarantees in child raising.

Perhaps you are right, but I can guarantee that striking or shaming a child does not lead to confident behavior in the least.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by CherryBombMama 

sometimes i have self doubt, that doesnt mean that i dont completely believe in GD. sometimes others perceptions of me get the best of me, and seemingly, the OP as well. what is so wrong about that? why does that have to mean that we dont believe in GD? please dont discourage or make others feel bad or question their sincerity about not feeling completely confident in parenting choices. mamas should encourage and reassure each other that feelings of doubt or insecurity is normal. 

this thread is getting off topic

hmmm, okay?  I guess That IS my way of encouraging mothers who lose faith, by letting you and the OP know that I believe so whole heartedly in this, I refuse to validate the judgements or passive agression of authoritarian and violent parents.  By asking deeply reflective questions for which I seek true honest open answers to begin a real dialogue. By asking hard questions that might inspire a catharsis and eventually an epiphany of confidence about one's choices.  That's how *I* encourage confidence. We clearly encourage in different ways.  I sometimes think too much empathy and cuddles and validating of these sort of fears is actually very detrimental to other's convictions.  It would be for me.  I would turn and run in the opposite direction if I didn't KNOW how many admirable confident and powerful women believed in this, women I trust and believe in.   So ya know, having an array of points of view is usually what makes these threads so healthy, a little something for everyone.

I also do not think this is off topic, at all.  This is a discussion about why we lose faith, and we all do at times, but more imporatantly why we should never falter in the knowledge that even by BEING on this board we are searching for ways to parent not JUST more gently but BETTER.  Just my two cents.

I am sorry you felt attacked.  That was not my intention. I certainly never meant to discourage or invalidate anyone's feelings.  I think anyone who read my first post all the way through could see that. Quite the contrary...we just have different ways of expressing emotional support, I think. 

Edited by hakeber - 4/9/11 at 12:14pm

[Lisa1970]

I do not hit my children, yet, they sit through concerts (symphony) and even Mass (we are not Catholic but go on occassion with relatives). My oldest was spanked when he was young. He never sat through anything either, regardless of spanking. He is obviously not spanked any more and none of the other kids were spanked. So I do not think GD is the key to a child being poorly behaved. There is a lot more that plays in to it. Plus, sometimes, I see people post about parenting issues, where it really comes down to them not disciplining their children at all, not just GD. Or not setting up expectations at all.

But I can tell you, with my first born, it would not have mattered what I did ever, he never would have sat through anything at all for even 5 minutes. But with the rest of my children, no problems. Except now with the 19 month old, he wants to stand and shake his little bottom dancing during orchestra concerts and I can see him trying to inch away. We probably will stop bringing him for a while if this becomes an issue. I don't want to set a precedent with him of running away where I cannot retrain him. So I just won't give him a challenge he cannot possibly meet. I am shocked he has set still for as long as he has.

[Just1More]

"I just don't want to set a precendent where I have to retrain him...."

Lisa1970, I totally agree with that idea.  I don't like to set my kids up for failure, and it is right to notice that whatever we allow/don't allow our kids to do, that we are framing their sense of "normal."  If normal to your toddler is getting up and running away from you, then don't be surprised when he keeps doing it for the next several years.  You can make a battle of it, you can ignore it and wait for it to go away, or you can avoid the scenerio to prevent teaching him that running off is the thing to do.  You can take him back when you know that he won't run off, and avoid that battle entirely.  But, if you do take him, you have to do something, or he will learn that it is okay, and you'll have a lot of undoing to do.  I think this applies to SO many things, and works in reverse, too.  If my child can't handle something, it's time to back off and work up to it again.  Spanking doesn't and can't make a child ready for something they just aren't ready to do. 

As for the two boys in the OP, I doubt they were sitting still from fear.  They were sitting still because they have been taught, "That's what you do."  And, they are older,  I'd guess MOST five and seven year olds could sit still.  They are used to sitting at school, too, you know.

[msmiranda]

OP, I completely understand how you feel.  I am a 100% believer in the efficacy and superiority of GD ... IN THE LONG RUN.  But does GD always "work" in the moment or in the short term, in the way that society thinks it should? (e.g. stopping something like being too loud or active in a public place immediately)  No.  Maybe with some kids, but not with all.  My oldest is spirited.  He is not a good listener despite use of GD techniques, and he is defiant.  He doesn't like being corrected, and he wants things to be his way all the time.  We spend a ton of time redirecting, teaching, explaining, correcting, and I believe that he has a good foundation of empathy and morality but he is 3.5 and still selfish and has poor impulse control (although much better than it used to be -- he has improved a lot over time).  He has never been spanked, and my parents have commented from time to time if we are having a challenging moment with him that if we would just ... which I think is BS.  His personality is what it is, and all spanking would do is make him angry and humiliated and destroy our relationship with him, which in the end would make it less likely that he will grow up to be a good person.  (IMO). 

OTOH, my younger son is more compliant and much easier to parent.  We don't have to spend near as much time on discipline with him because he just has a more docile personality.  When we do, we use basically the same techniques ...but they work better and faster on him.  One example: my older son would run away at the playground to explore at age 1.5-2.5, and would run into the parking lot if we didn't catch him.  Saying "stop" or whatever was rarely effective -- it was like it just went over his head.  We had to follow up with specific action, e.g. getting in the stroller and going home, to teach him that it was unsafe to run away from Mommy and Daddy, in addition to words.  And we had to repeat it more than once before he started to get it.  The younger, now almost 2, will stop 9 times out of 10 when we say stop, and if we do need to leave he doesn't fight us on it for more than a minute (whereas DS1 would cry and scream all the way home).  That's just one example, but the differences between the two of them are amazing.  And they have nothing to do with parenting style -- they are based on inborn personality traits.

So I guess what I am saying is that if you have a spirited child, you are definitely going to get judged for being a GD parent because people want to see you putting the beat down on your kid if they do the slightest thing in public.  And we absolutely avoided a LOT of public situations that we knew DS1 couldn't handle (we did not go to a restaurant with him unless forced to from 18 months to 3 years old because we knew it would be a nightmare, and it always was ... whereas with DS2 we didn't need a blackout period, he does ok in restaurants).  But you can't always just hide in your house so sometimes you will be in a position to be judged, especially by family.  I know full well that my parents and in-laws blame us for DS1's personality and as much as I think they are 100% dead wrong, it still smarts to be judged that way.  People who have not had a spirited child do not understand what it is like.  Only now, having DS2, do I know for absolute sure that so much of what we go through with our kids is attributable to luck of the draw.  Yes, you can handle things better and worse, but personality is still a huge driver of behavior moreso than discipline IMO.  Most people don't see that, and I know that I get judged all the time for DS1's peccadilloes, and it is really annoying because we are doing the best we can.

That doesn't mean that I don't believe in GD ... but I don't believe that GD always gets results as immediate as more authoritarian methods can.  I strongly believe in taking the long view with parenting, and that's what GD is all about to me, laying a good foundation for the long term ... but in the meantime you will encounter judgmental a**holes who have age-inappropriate expectations of children and who will think that if you just beat your child you would get the desired behavior.  That may be true, but a GD parent would say at what cost?  And to some random stranger in public, and even to some extent with grandparents, they don't really care what the costs are.  We do.  At the end of the day that is what keeps me going strong despite the judgment -- because I know what the costs can be and I would not do that to my child no matter how convenient and easy it would be for me.  But I know how hard it is to feel judged.  Hang in there!

[Cyllya]

Originally Posted by hakeber 

But I guess I was just asking, if you have chosen GD, why aren't you confident enough to believe not only that it is the best way but more importantly that IT WILL WORK just as well as if not better than violent methods in teaching children how to self-edit and control their behavoir choices?  Why choose a method of discipline you didn't have 110% faith in, especially one that takes so much thought and energy and patience on the parents' part?  Ya know?  If underneath you think the Pearls might be on to something?

I think even someone with 110% faith in GD still has reason to worry about other people negatively judging her parenting and her kids.

For one, I've seen lots of dedicated GD'ers on this very forum say that GD'd kids are more unruly when they're younger, but it pays off in the long run. This is along the lines of what msmiranda said.

Secondly, a lot of "mainstream" folks believe in punishing kids for the stupidest things!  Here's a topic about it from just a few days ago! And during my own childhood, I was often punished for crying. A mom on here once told a story about how an old man suddenly came up to her in a restaurant and told her off about having such horribly behaved kids, and she was both shocked and sad because her kids had been perfectly behaved the whole time. Some of them insist that a child "has to be taught she can't ___________" some ridiculous thing. (Have you ever seen an adult going around stealing from dog food dishes and eating it? If kids really needed to be taught they can't do that, everyone who never had a pet as a kid would grow up to be like that.) Part of practicing GD is knowing that little things like that don't need to be punished away. I bet almost everyone in this topic who talked about how good their gently disciplined kids are have at least one person in their life who is (quietly) thinking that those are horrible little monster children and their moms really need to give them a good spanking already!

All else being equal (though it rarely is), I really do believe that a GD kid and a TTUAC kid are going to act differently, at least when they're very young. I don't even think that the latter is preferable behavior at all, regardless of what's necessary to achieve it. But some people obviously do think that behavior is better, and they advocate physically assaulting children in order to make them act that way.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by Cyllya 

I think even someone with 110% faith in GD still has reason to worry about other people negatively judging her parenting and her kids.

Okay...I give up: what're the reasons? 

Generally speaking, if I feel that my children are behaving in ways that would warant this sort of judgement I would probably leave, remove my children, or stop spending time around people who have unrealistic expectations of my children (like Miranda in Sex and the City says "Mommy needs two hands to eat her 8$ cake"  so I don't take my son to places I know he can't behave as expected, right?).  That being said, I have only raised my children in Latin America and have never had the experience of perfect strangers ever advocating violence against a child for misbehavior in the supermarket or such place.  Here, if a child is having a tantrum at the check out, or the bank, or the government office, they give them a lollipop and move you to the front of the line to get you out. In fact I have been tempted to bribe DS to make a scene just so we can get out faster.  If a child is misbehaving in a restaurant here, the waitress comes over to play peekaboo with them and take them for a tour of the garden so you can eat in peace, or brings them crayons and a few paper placemats...sooooo, my frame of reference may be a little different. LOL

On the rare occassions someone has frowned upon the behavior of my children (like they did to my SIL -- who by the way does spank-- once in Scotland at a restaurant) or attributed what they perceived to be poor behavior to my parenting techniques, I have always chalked it up their being ignorant on child development, and rather uptight (I mean is silence during a meal REALLY that important at TGI Fridays at 2pm on a Wednesday afternoon with Brit-Brit blaring in the background?).  Once my parents frowned a bit over my son (then 3.5) trantruming over leaving a toy store, but after diffusing the situation in a matter of 20 or so minutes with empathy and distraction rather than threatening to punish him for being upset or trying to bribe him with sweets (neither of which worked when they tried both), they saw the value in what we do, and when the tantrum dissolved into genuine tears over missing his daddy (who was away with family for 4 weeks) his Papa's death from cancer of only a few months, and having moved from his home six months before that, they remembered that sometimes even tiny people have big feelings, and they too are entitled to have those feelings treated with empathy and love rather than threats of violence.  They saw we might be onto something better than a smack on the bum.  Even my grandfather,a hardened spanker and life long rage-aholic learned the benefits of kindness and love in final years by spending time with us.

Don't you have a hard time putting stock in the judgements of people who do not know what they are talking about?  I do, and I highly urge anyone who feels judged by these sort of people to stop and think seriously before renting these kinds of people any space in your soul, your heart, or your head.  They do not deserve one iota of consideration.  They are contributing to a world of passive violence against their own children, creating a hostile environment in their own homes that relies on opression to keep the peace.  How can I feel concerned about their opinion of me or my children?  As long as I am doing my best to avoid a situation where my parenting is directly infringing on their rights, as long as I am monitoring the impact my children's behavior has on other's enjoyment and sense of peace, then why should they even care?  More often than not, those people will be too busy worrying about what people think about the behavior of their own kids to even notice what I'm doing with mine.

So, in the interest of trying to understand what you mean, what are the reasons for worrying about the negative judgments of violent parents? Can someone please explain?

[dalia]

I think if you are human and you feel judged, it sucks. It makes you feel insecure. Sometimes these judgemental people are not violent strangers but those misguided people we love, grew up with, or who may have raised us. I think if you are beyond reacting to being judged then that's great. I, for one, am still growing and changing and trying to be more confident, so yeah, when someone makes a comment about how I raise my kid it bugs me. I'm not about to change it, though.

[JudiAU]

GD does not mean wild kids. I know lots of well behaved children that are in families that do not practice physical discipline. They have consequences, and sometimes punishment for older kids, but there is never a threat of violence.

I also know some families well who practice what they say is GD but is actually no discipline at all. Their kids are wild and rude and poorly behaved all the time and there is no reaction from the parents. There is simply no discipline at all. I don't know anyone in real life who is an effective GD parent. But these boards have put into a more positive light. I certainly think it is possible.

[Linda on the move]

coming late to the party...

My kids have always been GD'ed and are now 12 and 14. They've pretty much always had lovely behavior. While I'm willing to take some credit for that, some it is just their personalities. They are both fairly compliant and quiet, and in our culture, that means "good."  I think I could have had a different child, done everything the same, and had comments about how wild they were.

I think that rather than selecting a discipline technique based on hoped for outcomes, as if raising a child were like following a recipe for cookies, it makes more sense to focus on making our own behavior non-violent and respectful, which is what GD is about.

None of us control whether or not our children will always be non-violent and respectful, but we can chose that path for ourselves. That's really our only choice. How they behave is really kinda up to them. I think it is ultimately easier for a child to chose to be non-violent and respectful when they've had that constantly modeled for them, but there aren't any garantees. They have free will.

My opinion has changed over the years and is influenced by volunteering at my kids alternative school, which has lots of touchy feelly, new aged parents, and kids whose behavior is really all over the place. Some kids are just easier to mold into socially acceptable behavior than other kids. They are all treated gently at school and most are treatled gently at home, but that doesn't mean that they all are gentle to each other, quiet, and do all the things they are supposed to.

[LynnS6]

I agree it's hard not to feel judged when your children are not behaving in a manner that's appropriate to the location/circumstances. I do, think, however, that a lot depends on your community. I'm blessed to have both a family and a church community where they expect kids to make noise and need to move, and where there appears to be a high level of understanding of what's developmentally appropriate. But if you don't have that in your community, yeah, you can feel judged. It's one of the reasons that I try to smile at parents hose kids are having a meltdown in public -- to let them know that at least one person knows that it's hard work.

Originally Posted by July09Mama 

Sorry for the crappy title, I wasn't sure exactly what I was trying to say.

Tonight my dh and I took our almost 2 year old dd to a concert by my old college choir.

<snip>

At the end of the concert, the director (who was my director and I know he's a super nice guy) took a moment to shake hands with 2 little boys (like 5 and 7-ish) who were sitting in the front and had been super well-behaved the whole time.

Regardless of the discipline techniques used, I think it's unwise to compare the behavior of a 1 1/2 year old toddler to 5 and 7 year old children. They're developmentally at very different stages. I suspect, OP, that you were feeling embarrassed simply because you have a toddler (who was behaving like a toddler). I'd be willing to bet money that when she's 7, she'll be able to sit still. When ds was ~2 1/2, he spent one entire church service putting the kneeler up and down at the end of the pew, pretending it was sweeping the "garbage" back into the truck. When he was 3, I had to take him out of my cousin's wedding because he was putting up such a fuss.

He's 9 now, and serves as an acolyte, and everyone always complements him on how well he does. He sits still, he follows directions, he actually mouths the words (can't tell if he sings because I can't hear him), and I have a sneaking suspicion it's nearly sub-vocal. Regardless, the only thing that really changed was his age and development. I'd love to say it was my stellar parenting, but really, he's a good kid, who tries hard, and I try to stand back and not screw him up too much.

Originally Posted by rissierae 

You know, I don't think that the general public really thinks about all of the different "methods" of discipline when they look at a kid's behavior.  I don't think a lot of people even know about GD, or what it's really about.  At least I wasn't aware of all of the different kinds of discipline that there are before I had kids.  People just tend to think either that kid is well behaved or not.  Then again, I could be completely naive.

I agree wholeheartedly. when I see a kid losing it in public, I usually think "hmm.. must be naptime". I don't think "Oh my gosh, those parents should be doing XYZ." I don't think I'm in the minority.
 

[kcstar]

DS is 3, which IIRC is about the age of the OP's child.  Someone earlier mentioned that part of GD is recognizing age-appropriate behavior.  There are members of society, generally adult members, who are not pleased by certain age-appropriate behaviors of infants and toddlers, especially crying and needing to move around.  We have had to leave events when he couldn't settle down, and it's disappointing but we work through it.

I have relatives who believe in Dr. Dobson's writings.  They wouldn't dream of striking an infant, but apparently toddllers are okay   I can remember a visit when DS was small.  We had done a LOT of redirecting, but finally got to a point where we had to tell DS "no."  Da told him "no," ma told him "no," he burst into tears from surprise, and we comforted him but held our ground.  I could see our relative's surprise that we DID discipline, just differently.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by dalia 

I think if you are human and you feel judged, it sucks. It makes you feel insecure. Sometimes these judgemental people are not violent strangers but those misguided people we love, grew up with, or who may have raised us. I think if you are beyond reacting to being judged then that's great. I, for one, am still growing and changing and trying to be more confident, so yeah, when someone makes a comment about how I raise my kid it bugs me. I'm not about to change it, though.

Yeah, no.  I get that.  Being judged SUCKS and it hurts, especially from the people you love. We are all human here, and we all have hurt feelings when others dismiss us, and it's okay to feel hurt. But it's not about being "beyond reacting".   It's about choosing HOW to react.  I just can't understand choosing to react passively with "worry" and fear.   

So, I choose to react by educating, modelling and most importantly setting firm boundaries of safety around my children.  As I stated in my example above, when my family and loved ones criticize my ways I show them how it works.  It doesn't usually take long for them to see my point of view, but the other side of that is that I advocate fiercely on behalf of my children.  DH and I have a ZERO tolerance policy for advocacy of violence around or about our children.  So when people do make comments about how all my kid needs is a smack on the bum (like MIL did ONCE), they are given ONE very stern verbal warning that speak of violence, threats or other oppressive tactics will not be tolerated within earshot of my child, be it about my child or about another child (ie MIL, although entitled to the rights to spank my SIL's kids, is not even allowed to threaten a spanking to my nieces in front of my kid or we leave the house immediately explaining to DS that Grandma is in a bad mood and it is not safe for us to be around her right now -- because that is the truth).  We get right up in their personal space and lock eyes and in a low toned stern voice we say "NO," like you would to a badly behaved dog; " you will not discuss that in front of my child.  Are we clear?"  After that, if they continue, they lose all rights to spend time alone with my child, and moreover will be told off vociferously, and firmly and in front of my child should they ever do it again.  

If they do it when he's not around, let's get into it!  I will gladly educate them and argue with them until they understand. 

So as I keep saying, Judgement hurts and is unpleasant, and no one likes to be judged, but if you really believe in what you are doing...what are you going to DO about it next time?  When the OPs child is old enough for her to face this sort of abuse, what is SHE going to do about?  Are you going to passively worry about others' negative opinions of you, others' opinions whose choices you do not even respect?  Or are you going to FIGHT for your beliefs and educate those who wish to advocate for violence and oppression? 

One of the best ways of growing confident in your beliefs is educating yourself well enough to educate others.

So my advice on how to react?  Be sad, feel it.  Embrace it.  Then do something about it. If people like us don't challenge the mainstream and stand up against it when it tries to sweep us under, how will the tides ever turn?  Who ELSE is going to tell them they are wrong?  

[dalia]

I will always stand up for my child. I won't let anyone bully me or him or anyone in my family. I believe in gd, I am not passive. I stand up for what I believe.

But when someone makes me feel bad it sucks. So sue me.

I don't see what one has to do with the other. Not really sure what the argument is so i'm gonna bow out now.

Op, don't worry about it. Just keep fighting the power. You're doing the right thing. It's normal to feel insecure sometimes. Everything will work out and it will all be worth it!