What would you do? - Friend's 7 year old son threatens my 6 year old daughter to pull down her pants

[netsylvie]

I need someone’s help.

Last weekend my DH's godson came to visit with his parents (my DH's best friend).  While the kids were downstairs playing in the playroom, I heard my daughter saying "No, I will get in trouble".  When I went downstairs, both children did not have their shirts on.  I asked my daughter why her shirt was off and she replied that He had asked her to do so and did not want to give it back to her.  I then directed them upstairs so they would play in sight.

To make a long story short, the next day my son (who is 4 1/2) told us what had happened.  We then confirmed with our daughter to find out that my DH godson had asked DD to pull down her pants.  She had said no, but then he told her that if she did not do it, "the kids would come to kill her"...  Our DD felt very guilty for doing it and was genuinely afraid.  She is a very sensitive child.

We have already told the parents that we no longer wish to put our daughter in contact with their child.  We feel this is inacceptable conduct and that our children do not have to risk going through this again.  We feel if we do, this shows our children that anybody can say or do what they want with them and that there is no consequence.

THE PARENTS ARE FURIOUS and say that we are overreacting to the whole situation.  According to them, we are treating their son like a monster.  My DH is losing a good friend and maybe a group of friends.  His wife I couldn't care less of ;)

p.s. This little boy had been involved in the past with a situation with another little boy that required CPS.  "Charges" were dropped but the parents never told us exactly what happened and tend to do nothing.  They have found out that he had been also "victimized" by their neighbour's son.  The little boy has behavioral issues at school where he calls teachers stupid and hits little girls.  According to the parents, it's never his fault and until this incident, they have never consulted a therapist. This is also why I kept a close eye (and ear) on them.

My question is: Do you think we are overreacting?  Would you have done the same thing?

[doubledutch]

it's really unfortunate that no one is stepping in on the little boy's behalf (i mean, his parents primarily, but you'd think teachers or cps would have some way to get him into therapy).  personally i don't think i would say "no contact between our children ever" to my best friend about my godchild.  i would just say they have to play in the room with us, and i would never let my kids out of my sight with them.  however that's me - you have to do what you're comfortable with.  i'm sorry your dd experienced that and ds witnessed it, and i'm sorry for the drama it's causing between you and your friends (even if you don't really like the wife!).

[4evermom]

I'm not a fan of kids who are not well known playmates playing away from adults...  Invariably there is some issue, even just miscommunication, that the kids can be given some guidance with resolving if there is an adult around.  In general, it gets the kids in good play habits and gives them practice resolving conflict in socially acceptable ways. 

It seems to me that your dh and his best friend would likely enjoy getting together on their own.  No need for both families to hang out, as well.  I might not forbid all contact between the kids but I wouldn't allow any unsupervised time.  I'd realize that if we all got together, I would not be puttering in the kitchen or hanging out having a drink and chatting with the grown ups, but with the kids facilitating their interactions.

[GoBecGo]

I would probably have them play always in sight, always with me watching, if this was the only incident.  And as a godmother if this was my godson (hard to imagine - my only godson is still an infant) i would be talking to him alone to figure out where this behaviour is coming from.  From what you wrote i think he has been molested or witnessed molestation and is struggling to integrate it (thus he acts it out, both the behaviour and the threats to coerce the behaviour).  He needs help, because if he doesn't get it it's tossing a coin as to whether or not he grows up to be an adult who still behaves this way.

For me not concerning is trying to lift a girls skirt even when told not to in a chase-and-giggle kind of way.  When threats are involved it is concerning.

[netsylvie]

 Thanks for the responses.  Though I am still having trouble with the thought of getting them together again...
 

Originally Posted by 4evermom  I'd realize that if we all got together, I would not be puttering in the kitchen or hanging out having a drink and chatting with the grown ups, but with the kids facilitating their interactions.
 

Exactly what I am thinking would happen.  So what would be the use of them meeting?  If I am to babysit other people's children all night?  It is not the first time their son shows violent tempers with my children.  He once scratched my son's face because my son had taken the collar of his teddy bear.  The mother litterally rocked her son for 45 minutes while never asking him to apologize.

A point I might have left out is that the CPS situation was (for what they told us), consisted of a friend of his, while taking a bath, said to his mother "look mommy, my penis is big like ()"  The possibility of oral "touching" also slipped during their conversation but soon trivialized it saying that there son said it wasen't true and that they believed him.  They did trace that behaviour to their neihbours son who had performed god knows what with him.  CPS told them that they often see this type of situation, so they (the parents) took this as being normal behaviour.  Terefore never consulting a child psychologist.  We know that the boy is never invited to playdates and is often hurting children at school.

To me this is too much.  I guess if I knew that the parents were somewhat proactive or would intervene (they don't), I would probably think differently.  For now I am so frustrated that for them, it's not that much of a deal and that they have not even appologized for their son's behaviour.  That this situation could have been avoided had they been forthcoming about the whole situation.

To me, to accept that my daughter sees him again, is like telling her that what he did was ok and to trivialize it.  And the same thing goes for my son.  I don't want him to start thinking this is fun and games and that there will be no consequences.

I am really curious to see where this will go.

[LynnS6]

Tell the parents that you're really worried about their son and hope that they are able to get counseling for him -- it's not just the situation with your daughter but the whole history that concerns you, along with his threat that your daughter would be killed. If they get him counseling and see improvement in his behavior, then you can reconsider. But until then, the kids simply cannot ever be unsupervised together. He's clearly hurting and acting out. Until they address that, he's just not safe to be around.

[GoBecGo]

Ok, the scratching thing would have made me rethink already and in that context (i.e. i assume you've actually been pretty vigilant since that incident and this still happened, which means he's a bigger risk than if this was the first and only incident) i think i would probably not get together with them again.

In this context, given you already don't like the Mama anyway, i think i would, in writing, set out my concerns about the son and about their responses.  Tell them you are frightened for him, you are frightened for his future, and that as his godmother you are obliged to say so, even if it might hurt his parents' feelings.  I don't know how responsible for/towards him you feel.  If this was my godson, even if it antagonised his parents, i would absolutely push the point.  Tell them he needs counselling, that something is off, and that you are worried about it.  Point out that however much they think YOU are over reacting if he does this in a few years he could get into very serious trouble with the police.

[pbjmama]

Sounds like this boy has been sexually abused and he was setting your daughter up/walking a very fine line towards sexually abusing her. Using guilt/shame and fear to get a victim to comply like he was is very common in sexual (and other) abuse. Your first priority is your daughter of course. I think what you have done to protect her speaks a very loud message to everyone involved. It is a wonderful message to your children. Obviously a threatening message to your friends. You are letting them know you are not okay with their role in the sexual abuse of their son. The may not be complicit but they are choosing to neglect/denial and their son has no place to turn, no one to protect him and help him. They are choosing their comfort over the responsibility of providing a safe environment for their child. Unfortunately he is much more likely to be abused in the future because of his past abuse experiences.

I could go on and on here. I'm not sure what I would do in your place beyond protecting my children. I guess the question for me would be is there a way I can I protect my children and possibly help this boy.

[NiteNicole]

Your responsibility is to your daughter.  This kid took her shirt and wouldn't return it, wanted her pants and was willing to scare her to get her to take them off.  What will it say to her if, after her telling you this, you then continue a relationship that includes having this kid around?  To me it would say - my parents care less about me and more about not rocking the boat and they may not believe and/or protect me if I am in danger.

Of course the other parents are mad, this is their child.  He seems to be at the center of a lot of these kinds of situations - for whatever reason.  YOU can't make them get him some help.  YOU can't do anything.  So all you can do is protect your children. 

If the rest of your friends follow their example then...what do we tell our kids?  Real friends don't act that way.

I don't think you over reacted.  And I don't think it matters if the other parents are mad.  That's not your responsibility.

[netsylvie]

Thanks again for all the replies.  It helps me to stay true to my beliefs. 

It is sometimes not easy because they bombard us with guilt trips about not caring for their son's well being (which is not true).  My DH has told them that he wishes to remain in the boy's life and that he will visit him but not with our children present (I will stay home with them).  They are still not happy with this decision.

Thank you NiteNicole, you really explained well my thoughts exactly.
 

Originally Posted by NiteNicole 

What will it say to her if, after her telling you this, you then continue a relationship that includes having this kid around?  To me it would say - my parents care less about me and more about not rocking the boat and they may not believe and/or protect me if I am in danger.

If the rest of your friends follow their example then...what do we tell our kids?  Real friends don't act that way.

[NiteNicole]

Originally Posted by netsylvie 

Thanks again for all the replies.  It helps me to stay true to my beliefs. 

It is sometimes not easy because they bombard us with guilt trips about not caring for their son's well being (which is not true).  My DH has told them that he wishes to remain in the boy's life and that he will visit him but not with our children present (I will stay home with them).  They are still not happy with this decision.

Thank you NiteNicole, you really explained well my thoughts exactly.
 

If they're going to be so bold as to GO THERE, then next time I would ask them just why their child's well being is so much more important than your child's - and do they really expect you to put your child second to theirs because of some made up title like "godparent."  But I'm confrontational like that.  At first, I would try just not getting the kids together and if it's the husbands who are really friends, let them make plans but as a family, you're always busy.  Since you've already told them directly, it's probably beyond that now so you can either avoid them (which would be my Plan A) or have it out one last time so they know, clearly, why you've made your decision.

There is every possibility that this little boy is acting out through no fault of his own - but that won't matter to your daughter.  Whatever motivates him, it's going to feel the same to her. 

[doubledutch]

Originally Posted by NiteNicole 

Your responsibility is to your daughter.  This kid took her shirt and wouldn't return it, wanted her pants and was willing to scare her to get her to take them off.  What will it say to her if, after her telling you this, you then continue a relationship that includes having this kid around?  To me it would say - my parents care less about me and more about not rocking the boat and they may not believe and/or protect me if I am in danger.

Of course the other parents are mad, this is their child.  He seems to be at the center of a lot of these kinds of situations - for whatever reason.  YOU can't make them get him some help.  YOU can't do anything.  So all you can do is protect your children. 

If the rest of your friends follow their example then...what do we tell our kids?  Real friends don't act that way.

I don't think you over reacted.  And I don't think it matters if the other parents are mad.  That's not your responsibility.

this is really different from my initial reaction, but a really good perspective that i appreciate very much.  thank you for posting this!

[LessTraveledBy]

I am pretty shocked that people are suggesting that your dd would still like to play with this child. If someone told mu dd kids were going to come kill her, no way would she be interested in that kid's company. Frankly, even if she were, they would no longer play together. The world is full of kids and it is not my dd's job (or yours) to play therapist to a child with problems.

[One_Girl]

I think you are reacting perfectly.  I discourage my dd from even being friends with kids who are known trouble makers at school and there is no way I would let my child play with a child who had been charged with something already at that age, so I think you went above and beyond by ever giving him a chance. 

[Bay Area Babe]

I like the suggestion of just having DH and his friend and/or godson have their own time together. I would not be putting my child back into that sort of situation/relationship and I wouldn't want to have to be on guard every second that their son is present. 

I'm thinking about your daughter and what you can do make her feel empowered if she encounters a situation like this again. Two books that I have saved along this subject line are below. I haven't actually read them as our library doesn't have them, I plan on ordering them soon.

http://www.amazon.com/Said-guide-keeping-private-parts/dp/1878076493/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=ISKJIDWJX4T15&colid=M8FBNTVZAP0A

http://www.amazon.com/Your-Belongs-Cornelia-Maude-Spelman/dp/0807594733/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2Q1VC6KDOYTTO&colid=M8FBNTVZAP0A

[JudiAU]

It sounds like the child has been victimized and is now beinging to victimize. I am really sorry that he isn't getting help.

DH should be welcome to see his friend but as a family, you are busy. Your DS was frightened and told you the trust. Respect that. Don't undercut his fear and trust in you by forcing him to play with this kid.

[babygirlie]

w/o read posts.. no way is it overreacting to not force my daughter to play with a boy who threatened to kill her if he couldn't molest her. No way in heck! Those parents have serious issues btu I have no advice on how to get them the  help the desperatly need. Friends versus my child's mental well being for eternity.. I'll take my daughter. I can get new friends.. and if not.. who cares.. I still have my unmolested daughter.

[mattemma04]

If that happened to my kids my dh would no longer be the god-father of that child. Life is so short and I would not want to waste precious time with a child to hurts and wants to molest my kids. I would not want to waste my time with the parents who are in denial,and demand I allow their child to abuse my kids. I would not enjoy time together with them. I would move on and wish them well.