Where's the line between laziness and radical unschooling? - Page 5

[geekgolightly]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4 

Sorry I thought we were talking specifically about the 6 year old whose father did want to let him watch Saw and whose mother doesn't limit any movies rated for teens, and who participated in the community aspct of SC where he had encountered cyberbullying.

Obv you differ from me as you are specifically pointing out what I do to raise my DS. I don't see anything wrong with my 7 year old (and I did mention that he was seven. I realize that my sig says different but I can't sort how to change it since the board change) watching t for teen movies. He decides which ones he wants to watch as long as they aren't R.

I also mentioned that I haven't seen any "cyberbullying" as SC1 is a twitchy game and most of the time people are just trying to win. I have seen some curse words when something fails, but no bullying.

I also don't raise my child with any sort of religion, and will talk to him openly about any subject matter he has expressed interest in. This includes the Holocaust, WWII, animal abuse, death, kidnappings, the myths of Santa Claus and why parents lie to their kids about stuff like that etc etc.

I am sure to offend lots of people by doing this, and I suppose that's ok, but I really *really* don't appreciate being targeted as if I am a "bad" parent on MDC.

[geekgolightly]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4 

Sorry - you are right about the cyberbullying post. My bad.  I still don't think that Manhunt or Grand Theft auto or other "mature games" that geekgolightly was talking about are appropriate for a 5-7 year old and that kids are worthy of better options. These conversations always make me realize that I really don't belong in this forum  Carry on

.
 

Karen

Yeah, Again, Manhunt and Grand Theft Auto were brought up by me because I have a *problem* with them. They are most definitely not T for Teen. I think that if you would read carefully before posting, you could contribute without other people feeling attacked. I realize now that you probably have just skimmed my posts rather than reading them, so I can't really take offense to that. To misinterpret so much of what I have posted isn't to judge me, it's just going on missed information and poor interpretation of what was actually written.

My issue is that I feel like the bad guy for setting these limits! My husband is very smart, very good at arguing his point, and I can't come up with solid evidence to show him that Manhunt and Grand Theft Auto and Saw movies are bad for children. He finds flaws in every study etc. etc. So I end up feeling like the bad guy crazy controlling momma, I come here for some guidance/support and get flack for being the crazy liberal momma! lol!

[julesmiel]

I wonder about this.  If a parent feels better with structure, it may be that the child will do better with structure because the child is in the presence of a happy parent.  If the parent feels better with less structure...same thing? 

[Piglet68]

Julesmiel, the more I do this parenting thing, the more I tend to agree with your assumption. It's true that kids are pretty resilient. Somebody else higher up in this thread also talked about the importance of the parent being authentic and parenting the way their gut tells them to. 

Honestly, even if I believed that an authoritarian style of parenting were best for kids (which I don't), I simply couldn't do it. I'm not that sort of person. To me, practising gentle parenting, treating my children with respect, and definitely NOT using punishment and coercion all feels really good deep down inside. When I am in my groove, life is truly good with us and I se my children thriving. But who am I to judge that others' kids aren't thriving just because they don't parent the way I do?  

While they are a mystery to me, I do believe some people really feel good being told what to do and not do, and having limits imposed on them. I'm quite certain that there are parents who would feel untrue to themselves if they parented more freely, and being more authoritarian is how they remain true to themselves. I have no doubt that greatly influences how kids take to such parenting.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by geekgolightly 

My issue is that I feel like the bad guy for setting these limits! My husband is very smart, very good at arguing his point, and I can't come up with solid evidence to show him that Manhunt and Grand Theft Auto and Saw movies are bad for children. He finds flaws in every study etc. etc. So I end up feeling like the bad guy crazy controlling momma, I come here for some guidance/support and get flack for being the crazy liberal momma! lol!

Some people really are very good at arguing, and can pick apart any argument...it does not mean they are right - just better at arguing.

I would tell DH I did not feel comfortable with Ds watching those movies/games, teen movies and games are a compromise, and that is that. There is no harm in waiting and your gut tells you to wait. 

DH should not automatically get his way simply because he argues better.  That is hardly fair to you and your beliefs.

Alternatives could include:

-consensus 

-compromises

-you get your way on issues that are important to you, he gets his on issues important to him.  If it is important to both of you, try the above two.

Good luck,

Kathy

Edited by purslaine - 3/29/11 at 11:05am

[Piglet68]

Originally Posted by oceankitkat 

 Children do not instinctively know how to make health, safe or wise choices...Children actually want the security of the structure that parents provide....I have noticed that children feel more loved when they are given boundaries.  

I hear this all the time and I have yet to figure out how this has ever been conclusively demonstrated. It certainly contradicts my entire experience growing up.

Seems to me that our society has a whole lot of misconceptions that seem "common sense" but in fact are rooted in ignorance and cultural bias. Just one example: very few people in our culture have any idea what Natural Learning looks like (i.e. the way children are biologically designed to learn) because they've never been exposed to children who have never been schooled. They'll tell you as if it's an Absolute Truth that kids who don't go to school will never learn. 

And since our culture generally follows the same old tired behaviouralist parenting paradigms we've all been brought up with, there is a belief that kids can't make good choices because they've never seen a child allowed to do so under the thoughtful guidance of a parent intentionally raising their child this way. And, unlike what certain posters here have suggested, there is a huge difference between neglectful parenting and conscious dedicated parents who are making very well thought-out choices and providing huge inputs of support and gentle guidance to their kids along the way. To truly measure the effects one must separate these two populations.

I tend to suspect that the observations made by oceankitkat are more to do with what julesmiel said: if the parent truly believes this, and finds comfort in limits for their own lives, they're possibly more likely to have children who are equally comfortable with it. 

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by oceankitkat 

Children do not instinctively know how to make health, safe or wise choices.  

I'm curious as to why this would not be so. Don't you think that as a species humans would be born with instincts that make them likely to survive? Likely to choose healthy and safe activities and things that allow them to grow into clever and productive members of the clan?

Originally Posted by oceankitkat 

My home schooled daughter flourished when she  completed assignments on time.   Meeting the demands of the schedule gave her an innate sense of achievement and accomplishment.  Her free time was so much more precious because she punctuated it with work.   

Interestingly my unschooled kids are flourishing too. They develop their own goals, structuring their lives (with parental facilitation and support as desired) in order to achieve those goals and give themselves a sense of accomplishment. I have a teenage daughter who practices violin for 4-6 hours a day, spends 2 hours a day running and cross-training, holds down a part-time job, is doing a Canadian history and English literature course, teaching herself French, and participates in various "extra-curricular" activities. 

There are many ways for children to flourish. As I understand it this forum is a support forum for those who are following the unschooling path to flourishdom, not a place to debate the merits of assigned schoolwork.

Miranda

[annakiss]

First of all, I had no idea the thread was still being added to.

Second, Lisa, I fully disagree.

Originally Posted by Piglet68 

I tend to suspect that the observations made by oceankitkat are more to do with what julesmiel said: if the parent truly believes this, and finds comfort in limits for their own lives, they're possibly more likely to have children who are equally comfortable with it. 

I'm with you.

Finally, this wasn't really about video games. It's about how to be with children. I've recently changed a lot and feel fantastic. Actually, not much has changed on the surface, but I'm cool with where we're at. A lot of my parenting struggle is with the lines between insisting and requesting, talking loudly and yelling, feeling heard and feeling ignored and wondering whether I'm to fault for all of it. But really, I just have to figure them out for myself.
 

We've actually always placed limits on screen time, but in a way where my and my husband's boundaries regarding it were not just reached, but long surpassed and that usually resulted in upset feelings all around. I've started more heartily encouraging other activities. I think it's going to be sticky in the interim, but good for us long term. I'm really okay with it and we're having out-loud dialogue with everyone all the time. It's been hard for me to let go and make these transitions for a long time because they've felt entirely my responsibility and that was too burdensome for me. I didn't like feeling that whether I aced it or screwed it up was entirely on me, so I took the apathetic approach and did next to nothing. Not entirely nothing, mind you - I don't think I'm actually lazy at all - but just not really confronting it or insisting on the conversation. We've instituted family meetings. It's working well.

I really think I wanted a prescription because these philosophies - and those most outspoken about them - tend to give the illusion of that being possible. I'm finding I positively loathe the talking heads of unschooling. They're largely untrustworthy because they all have enormous flaws in their delivery and rely on no (or misplaced) empirical data to back them up. I have no problem with the educational aspects, mind you. I have trouble with parenting and feeling good about the day to day. I'm doing better, thanks.

Edited by annakiss - 3/29/11 at 11:21am

[Dar]

Originally Posted by annakiss 

I'm finding I positively loathe the talking heads of unschooling. They're largely untrustworthy because they all have enormous flaws in their delivery and rely on no (or misplaced) empirical data to back them up. I have no problem with the educational aspects, mind you. I have trouble with parenting and feeling good about the day to day. I'm doing better, thanks.

Not mentioning any names, but my daughter told me recently that when she used to chat on IM with the child of one of those heads, who shall remain nameless, said child wrote a lot about how much child hated child's mother. Granted they were both at prime mother-hating age at the time, but 1) I never pretended life was perfect all the time, and I've posted about that, and 2) Rain was sort of shocked by the kid's vehemence. I don't have any reason to doubt Rain, since she's pretty uninvested in the topic of unschooling... but I think it is important to be honest, even if we get snarked on other boards or whatever. Things don't always have to be perfect in order for unschooling to be - or to have been - the right choice for my family.

[annakiss]

Originally Posted by Dar 

Originally Posted by annakiss 

I'm finding I positively loathe the talking heads of unschooling. They're largely untrustworthy because they all have enormous flaws in their delivery and rely on no (or misplaced) empirical data to back them up. I have no problem with the educational aspects, mind you. I have trouble with parenting and feeling good about the day to day. I'm doing better, thanks.

Not mentioning any names, but my daughter told me recently that when she used to chat on IM with the child of one of those heads, who shall remain nameless, said child wrote a lot about how much child hated child's mother. Granted they were both at prime mother-hating age at the time, but 1) I never pretended life was perfect all the time, and I've posted about that, and 2) Rain was sort of shocked by the kid's vehemence. I don't have any reason to doubt Rain, since she's pretty uninvested in the topic of unschooling... but I think it is important to be honest, even if we get snarked on other boards or whatever. Things don't always have to be perfect in order for unschooling to be - or to have been - the right choice for my family.

Indeed, the honesty is severely lacking in all books and most blogs about unschooling.

[myjo]

Originally Posted by annakiss 

Indeed, the honesty is severely lacking in all books and most blogs about unschooling.

This conversation has certainly taken an interesting turn.  I've mostly just been reading and learning from this thread.  I'm not an unschooler, not strictly anyway, but I'm not here to criticize or debate.  I'm still in a state of flux regarding my decisions for my kid's education, and have been reading like a madwoman.  Lately it's been John Taylor Gatto.  I also have Grace Lewellyn's book. 

So what are the nameless talking heads saying, and why isn't it honest? 

[julesmiel]

This is timely.  I blogged about feeling like I wasn't getting a full picture of other unschoolers, and how that presents an unrealistic picture to others:

http://unschooledliving.blogspot.com/2011/03/shadow-and-light.html

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by julesmiel 

This is timely.  I blogged about feeling like I wasn't getting a full picture of other unschoolers, and how that presents an unrealistic picture to others

I think you need to consider the purpose of the stuff you're reading and taking issue with.

Speaking for myself: I don't respond to worries and questions on discussion boards "in order to give people a full picture" of my family's unschooling life. I respond in order to hopefully offer some helpful ideas. To share what has worked for us.

When I write blog posts I'm not trying to create some sort of public service total picture of authentic unschooling: I'm documenting for my future self, for my kids and for our extended family the notable accomplishments and memorable occasions. Sure, I have a blog tag called "the ugly face of reality" where I sometimes share the less than stellar moments. But mostly to keep my sense of humour about stuff, or else to think my way aloud to a something better. I am not trying to portray every moment of our lives accurately, I'm just trying to archive the things I'm going to want to remember later.

It's like vacation photos: you probably aren't going to take photos of your 3-year-old sitting on the floor crying in the zoo gift shop or your 11-year-old rolling her eyes when you ask her to help carry the cooler to the minivan. You're going to take that lovely beach photo where they're building sand sculptures together. Does that make you dishonest? 

Miranda

[unruly3]

I haven't read through all of this thread, the first post had me hooked, and I was excited to see your resolution AnnaKiss.

I have two young children, my son is five and his learning style, in fact, demands unschooling.  But I struggle with the idea of letting my kids do what ever they want especially when it pertains to media and especially my son.  He will watch TV all day.  What I understand, is that he is learning, I am sure that his future will include communications and visual media.  But he gets crabby and bored with life when he watches too much.  It is my job as his parent to find another way.  So I hand him a camera, or the flip, or we read a very grown up book, or a rhyming book. In any case, with MY kids I believe that it is my job to watch and guide and be the authority.  I know how to read, I know how to use the camera, I know how to run the household, I am the authority.  It is my duty to teach so they can be the authority.  And they have places where they are the authority.  Anyway, I disagree with so much I have read about the unschooling philosophy of parenting, but I won't give up on the education philosophy. So Like you, OP, I have struggled with the balance between child led learning and just letting my kids totally run the show. And have come to some similar conclusions. So there are limits and expectations. and I think what makes them not so hard for my kids is that they are for the family, not just for them.  We are all in it together. So in frustration I went to John Holts website, where Pat Farenga makes this statement

"Unschooling is not unparenting; freedom to learn is not license to do whatever you want. People find different ways and means to get comfortable with John Holt's ideas about children and learning and no one style of unschooling or parenting defines unschooling, as the following selection of books demonstrates. "

That made me feel safe to call myself an unschooler again!   Thanks for the very interesting thread.

[onatightrope]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

I think you need to consider the purpose of the stuff you're reading and taking issue with.

Speaking for myself: I don't respond to worries and questions on discussion boards "in order to give people a full picture" of my family's unschooling life. I respond in order to hopefully offer some helpful ideas. To share what has worked for us.

When I write blog posts I'm not trying to create some sort of public service total picture of authentic unschooling: I'm documenting for my future self, for my kids and for our extended family the notable accomplishments and memorable occasions. Sure, I have a blog tag called "the ugly face of reality" where I sometimes share the less than stellar moments. But mostly to keep my sense of humour about stuff, or else to think my way aloud to a something better. I am not trying to portray every moment of our lives accurately, I'm just trying to archive the things I'm going to want to remember later.

It's like vacation photos: you probably aren't going to take photos of your 3-year-old sitting on the floor crying in the zoo gift shop or your 11-year-old rolling her eyes when you ask her to help carry the cooler to the minivan. You're going to take that lovely beach photo where they're building sand sculptures together. Does that make you dishonest? 

Miranda

I know I wasn't the one you were replying to, but the issue of "honesty" in the posting of some unschooling talking heads strikes a chord with me. It's not about a blog post that captures a good day for me, but when someone is having a legitimate problem, and the response is to belittle the person who is struggling, and act as if a "real" unschooler never struggles.

Too many self-appointed spokespeople for unschooling have extremely rigid expectations of unschooling parents, and a bizarre faith that they can diagnose other family's problems over the internet. That is the reason I don't generally claim the unschooling label-- I'm not interested in meeting the expectations of strangers, I'm just trying to raise my own kids as well as I can. Annakiss, I relate strongly to what you've posted-- it's hard to find the right balance, and so easy to worry and doubt.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by onatightrope 

It's not about a blog post that captures a good day for me, but when someone is having a legitimate problem, and the response is to belittle the person who is struggling, and act as if a "real" unschooler never struggles.

I guess I'm not reading the same places that some of you are talking about. What I've seen more of is the opposite: an unschooler posts honestly about an area of struggle in an unschooling support forum or on a personal blog, and a bunch of people jump on her for unparenting and suggest that she's doing kids a disservice by unschooling them. 

I suppose in different places it goes different ways.

Miranda

[julesmiel]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 
It's like vacation photos: you probably aren't going to take photos of your 3-year-old sitting on the floor crying in the zoo gift shop or your 11-year-old rolling her eyes when you ask her to help carry the cooler to the minivan. You're going to take that lovely beach photo where they're building sand sculptures together. Does that make you dishonest? 

In that context, not at all, but I'm not sure the vacation scenario works in comparison to places where folks bring very real emotions and issues.

A bit of context of my own.  I've been involved in one form or another in the online unschooling community for longer than I've been parenting--about 9 years of reading and writing vs. 6 years of parenting.  I discovered unschooling pre-children, was fascinated with it, and immersed myself in it.  What I've noticed about the unschooling community dynamic is the result of years of observations.

Here's what I've noticed.  There's a definite apprentice-teacher dynamic going on where the purpose of the list is you go to someone in-the-know, and they tell it like it is, sometimes harshly.  While there's certainly value in that, I've found it odd that I've never, ever seen some of the most dominant posters give an example of a time they were a dominating jerk.  This paints a very unrealistic picture over time of the dominant posters as those who can do no wrong, those who have an image to uphold.  They get to tell people what to do.  They are never wrong.

Something in me just doesn't buy it.  Something in me doesn't quite trust the facade anymore.  That facade is looking pretty brittle, and I wonder about the value of presenting oneself as uber-parent.  I'm actually learning a valuable lesson from it, so maybe I shouldn't be annoyed.  At the moment I should counterbalance my annoyance with genuine appreciation for what the dominant posters do.  One criticism does not put everything they do in the garbage can, but this criticism has finally moved to the forefront lately.  It's niggling.

Oh, and I just started a discussion group to put the focus where I'd like it to be--on parents as learners, on speaking with each other as respectfully as we'd speak to our children:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingtalk/

Julie

[Dar]

I really feel like over the last 10 years or so a certain segment of the unschooling community has become a lot more organized and vocal about it, but the rest of us are still here and have always been here. We just tend to be busier living our unschooling lives then advertising them... and I think we're less concerned about segregating ourselves either physically or philosophically. There are threads here on mothering about unschooling going all the way back to our "rebirth" after the 2001 crash, though. I feel like I've watched a lot of unschooled or unschool-ish kids grow up, both here and on an email list that I've belonged to for a dozen years.

When we started the Unschooling subforum here a few years ago I was really against it, because I didn't want it to turn into place where members would be challenged about their unschooling cred and accused of not being unschooly enough. I think we've avoided that, for the most part. People can post here even if they don't see themselves as 100% unschoolers, and even those of us who do see ourselves as unschoolers have different opinions on what that means... and that's okay. I've gotten to really like this place. I think it works.

[annakiss]

I originally encouraged the Unschooling forum when I was a moderator. Right when you first started, I think, Dar. This is the only place on the internet where I feel safe posting about unschooling (other than my blog) and the only forum on Mothering I really use anymore.

[les_oiseau]

I am not sure how relavent my opinion is here, but  you asked for input so I am giving mine. btw I am not sure yet where I stand on the radical part of unschooling, my kids are an age that I am just starting to think about it more. But I find with my kids that I have to stand my ground. I have to be the one in the house with the ultimate say because I AM the one of the three of us that has the most experience. A lot of times I give my kids inch by inch on the position of "ultimate authority", and they decide they don't ever have to listen to what I say. Then I find myself have to regain a lot of ground. Now that I am typing this out I am realizing this is not the mindset of a radical unschooler.

Regardless. I would try telling them they have a certain amount of hours to spend playing video games per week. They can use it all up in one day, or spread it out. But I think if kids are going to be properly trained for life, they cannot spend all their time playing video games. Because that's not how one gets by in real life. Even if they end up being a professional video game player, they still need the skills that will enable them to cook, clean up, be a friend, be a husband or wife, maybe a parent.  So I would try the hours/week thing, and would tell them that if they yelled at me about it, freaked out and fought etc they would loose all remaining hours for the week, because I also think children need to learn to express themselves respectfully.

Another point is that we have always been a low-use of tv family, and I have noticed that when my kids do end up sitting in front of the tv all day they are CRABBY and more disrespectful. So in my mind I would expect the same to be true with video games. Of course, your kids are not mine and may not even be similar. Those are just my thoughts.

Good luck!!