At what age do you begin discipline? - Page 2

[UmmRiyam]

Originally Posted by hakeber 

See, to each their own, but I think there is something about calling it the "naughty chair" that makes it so shaming and humiliating.  I couldn't do that, not for something developmentally normative like tossing pieces of toys everywhere and not wanting to do the hard work of putting it away.  I would have just told her that either she helps pick up the pieces or I will put the puzzle away for a long LONG time.  It doesn't take them long to realize this consequence.  I only had to put away my son's track pieces once for four days and he has never questioned my resolve on that issue ever again for anything he really cares about.  Now if he leaves stuff on the floor he knows he has one chance and it's either pick it up or say goodbye as it get's taken to the Kids Foundation we volunteer with and he can play with it there when we go to play with the kids.  It's pretty simple.  If you can't take care of it, it doesn't get to live with you. Something about that naughty chair sitting there as a threat just reminds me of my mother's wooden spoon collection, especially the creepy ones that had smiling faces burned onto them and bow ties around the handle necks.

It also doesn't seem logical.  If she has to go sit on the naughty chair for not helping, how can she help you then?

I never thought of it as shaming and humiliating.  I learned this method of discipline from Supernanny.  It is working, and I think it's better than yelling or hitting, which I wouldn't do, but that's how I was raised and I don't think it really taught us anything to be yelled at or spanked.

she didn't just refuse to help pick up the puzzle pieces, she started stepping on them too.  She knew she was being bad, and she made the choice.  I could tell she was pushing me.

Before finding this forum, I'd never heard of Gentle Discipline.  I really don't know what it is or how to do that.  Can anyone direct me to some good articles or literature on the subject?

[Calm]

Discipline is something intrinsic, we can't give it to someone.  Discipline has become synonymous with punishment or consequences, but it is something that develops within a child in the right conditions.  They learn the discipline to carry them through the many issues of life.  We don't have any unnatural consequences or try to impart some kind of discipline on the kids.  

When I say no to my son, he might melt down, but I just hug him and empathise.  Tantrums, tears, anger, frustration... all of it gets a hug around here.  If he doesn't want a hug, I just offer affection and empathy while he pours his anger out and is ready to be held when the tears inevitably follow.  

Sometimes they have a build up of emotions that need releasing and will have what we call the BCS (broken cookie syndrome).  It's where they melt down over something like a broken cookie but really it is just they can no longer hold on to their feelings - past hurts or current ones - and it pours out over something unrelated and relatively small.

It helps me to remind myself children are people too.  My 9 year old daughter and my husband get my full undivided attention when they are angry or upset, and my 3 yo son is just as deserving of my love.  More so, because he has less ability to process his feelings.  Tantrums are wonderful opportunities to help them heal past trauma if dealt with compassionately and patiently, it also models how to react to other people's emotional pain.  I remember when my son would arch back in my arms during a tantrum, like a baby coming out of the birth canal...  I have no way to prove this but I felt in my heart he was processing his birth trauma.  He was almost crushed in my uterus.  It took him a long time and many crying fits to process it.  All of it in-arms.

After a big release though, he is like a new boy, very calm and focused and happy for the rest of the day.  

I just thought it might be helpful to know there is another way to view and react to tantrums.  Parents can feel at the mercy of their kid's emotions, worried about saying no due to the melt down, but this reminds us that they are just processing feelings, and each time is actually a gift we are given that we can return to them in helping them to heal.  I could never even consider punishing emotional expression, not even the biggest of rage filled outbursts.  I'm afraid we might create another generation of emotionally repressed medication addicts if we do.

BTW, Supernanny should be removed from public viewing, she is causing nothing but damage to our new people.  She's got all the compassion of a mosquito and all the understanding of a child's  emotional development of a sushi roll. 

[Calm]

BTW, the biggest single sign that a child needs to release hurt/trauma/stress is "misbehaviour".  Aggressive behaviour, etc, that is my clue that the tears or tantrum is not far behind.  I get prepared, and then set the stage for them to feel safe enough to fall apart.  My kids already feel safe in this way but some families have to first show the child this because emotions have been punished in the past.  And then I accept however they DO fall apart, and be their emotional rock while they purge.  

It can be challenging at first, but it gets easier, and the meltdowns get fewer and fewer as past hurts are processed, then they're only dealing with fresh ones so they are less intense and less often.  My daughter only had a few after I started this when she was very little.  If my son keeps harping about what he can't have, I just keep gently saying he can't have it, and that I understand how frustrating that is, and that I am here for him while he deals with it.  

It gives us our power to parent back.  It is very liberating.  And the bonus is, you don't have to do things we as parents would rather not do, such as punish, because it becomes moot... you suddenly understand where all their behaviour comes from, and what it needs to be addressed.

[UmmRiyam]

I just wanna say that I don't jump to mention the naughty chair to my daughter every time she's doing anything 'wrong'.  It's like a once a week thing, and it's something that works because she doesn't wanna sit there.  What I have read about GD is that it's really idealistic in the way that there's no need for rewards or punishments, but to me, this is unrealistic.  Rewards and punishments exist in so many ways in our lives.  It's also the way of many religions.  Many believe that there will be a judgment day, and everyone will be judged by God for our actions and then be rewarded or punished.  Many people believe in heaven and hell.  So, how is that so damaging to us to want rewards and fear punishments?  Doesn't it make us want to be better and do better?  Why not use that with our kids in some situations?  I believe there should be a balance between GD and other forms of discipline.  You have to see what is best for the situation you're in.  Most parents aren't trying to do anything to hurt their kids or prevent them from developing emotionally.  Parents try to bring out the best in their kids in the ways they know how, and I don't think any one system works for every child in the same way.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by UmmRiyam 

I just wanna say that I don't jump to mention the naughty chair to my daughter every time she's doing anything 'wrong'.  It's like a once a week thing, and it's something that works because she doesn't wanna sit there.  What I have read about GD is that it's really idealistic in the way that there's no need for rewards or punishments, but to me, this is unrealistic.  Rewards and punishments exist in so many ways in our lives.  It's also the way of many religions.  Many believe that there will be a judgment day, and everyone will be judged by God for our actions and then be rewarded or punished.  Many people believe in heaven and hell.  So, how is that so damaging to us to want rewards and fear punishments?  Doesn't it make us want to be better and do better?  Why not use that with our kids in some situations?  I believe there should be a balance between GD and other forms of discipline.  You have to see what is best for the situation you're in.  Most parents aren't trying to do anything to hurt their kids or prevent them from developing emotionally.  Parents try to bring out the best in their kids in the ways they know how, and I don't think any one system works for every child in the same way.

Hi UmmRiyam!

Welcome to the GD forum.  I think you're going to find a lot of really useful tools and ideas here. 

You're right, GD is sort of about idealistic parenting and no one is perfect.  We are all doing the best we can, and even those who do believe in corporal punishment feel this way.  I come here because I find it helps to recognize when the tools I have chosen might not be doing the job as well as I thought, and the folks here help me brainstorm better ideas.

I do not believe in forcing religion on my kids, and I am not sure that even if I did, I would want them making their life decisions based on whether or not they went to hell, but rather, whether or not they felt good about their choices. 

GD isn't about removal of all consequences and rewards (that might be some of the Unconditional parenting philosophy, but I don't really know), but it IS about trying to find gentle ways of raising little people. 

There are lots of schools.  Not hitting and shouting is just part of it.  I try to have logical consequences where natural consequences are not acceptable, and natural consequences when they are.  For example:  If my son wants to throw my necklace off the balcony, the logical consequence is that he will not be allowed in my room where my nice things are stored, and he will not be allowed out on the balcony until I can trust him to not throw stuff of of it.  On the other hand if he insists he wants to go out in shorts on a cold day I let him, and when he cries that it is cold he has a choice of either cutting the trip to the park short or suffering the cold and making a better choice next time.  I'm okay with that (it doesn't get dangerously cold here, just uncomfortable).  This is a chance for him to learn about choices and decide which choices to make next time. .

I also reward. I am motivated by rewards and bonuses and I have no problem with that aspect. I try to make rewards connected to the achievement or the behavior.  So if DS has helped do the dinner dishes, I let him blow bubbles with me off the balcony from the dish soap, or if he has done really well in his reading class we get to go to the book store and pick out a new book on whatever topic he wants.  I think these sort of rewards can help kids feel good about their choices and help them to make better choices in the future because they see positive consequences for those choices in the same way that negative consequences deter them from making bad choices...I just try to be careful about the consequences I choose, like I don't give money for grades or a clean room, and I don't take away toys because he's being rude, for example.

You'll find a lot of different ideas on this board to help you be the parent you want to be, and we have all had our ideas dissected and shot down.  Don't worry. Just visiting this board means you have an interest in being a gentle parent and that's an awesome step.

[hakeber]

Oh and if your own self-discipline is about fearing punishment, rather than making good choices, when the threat of punishment goes away (ie the child gets bigger and stronger than you, or you die, or they go away or grow up...) what real LEARNING has taken place that allows that child (possibly now adult) to make sound choices?

I know for me, there was nothing...so when my parents trusted me to be on my own at the age of 14 I started doing things I would have been punished for if they had found out and started highlighting for them the good things that they literally paid me for with cash, (which I used to fund the activities that would have gotten me punshied if they had known.)  When I went away to university it was even worse.

I had to learn a lot of hard life lessons between 17 and 24, and I wish I had been taught to make better choices...and truthfully my parents did a pretty good job with me...you should have seen some of my friends whose parents were REALLY strict.

As a teacher I know my students don't behave or misbehave because of a system of punishments, but because of the consequences they will see as a result of their choices.  They know we will have interactive fun activities if they can control themselves, and will have to sit quietly writing if they don't (because I can't organize fun activities with choas in the room) and that the better choices they make the more they learn and the better prepared they are for the future, and the more they goof around, the more likely they are fail and have to repeat the year.  It's all up to them, and they make better choices for it.

[ssh]

Originally Posted by UmmRiyam So, how is that so damaging to us to want rewards and fear punishments? 

Tantrums are how small humans learn to deal with overwhelming emotions. It's developmentally useful and helps the individual begin to become emotionally mature. When a parent punishes or isolates for tantrums the child can become afraid to express being overwhelmed and learn to hide their emotions. Learning to hide the reactions to emotion instead of learning to deal with emotions undermines the person progress to emotional maturity and can lead to adult coping behavior that's harmful. Just one example of how fear can damage.

There's a really good book on how our parenting effects our children's brain development. It's The Science of Parenting by Margot Sunderland.  Unlike Supernanny who has her show and time that she's dealt with kids as experience Margot Sunderland is director of education and training at The Centre for Child Mental Health London. She has several books for children with various mental health issues. The book is built on over 30 years of neurological research and it's pretty easy to read.

[kateye]

This thread has been very informative--thanks to all the posters!  Calm, I'm so interested in your take, it's very refreshing!  I know that as an adult I still have tantrums (embarrassing but true!) and the thing I need most at that time is a huge hug from my husband, not a big lecture about how I'm misbehaving.  I had a day yesterday with my toddler where he was constantly pushing my buttons--throwing toys, putting toys in his mouth, throwing his books on the floor, drooling drinks and chewed food out of his mouth, etc.  ALL DAY.  I know this is probably a reaction to our new babe (4 weeks old) and that he was just needing attention/feeling frustrated.  I was trying to be firm by telling him he is not allowed to do those things but also trying to give him the undivided attention he surely needs but the behavior did not really improve.  We did have a great morning today, but I'm sure there will be many more days of "acting out".  Just wondering how you deal with the "misbehaviors" as the come and how you prepare yourself and the environment for the upcoming meltdown.  Or if there are other resources for how you do things, could you point me to them?

Thank you! 

Originally Posted by Calm 

BTW, the biggest single sign that a child needs to release hurt/trauma/stress is "misbehaviour".  Aggressive behaviour, etc, that is my clue that the tears or tantrum is not far behind.  I get prepared, and then set the stage for them to feel safe enough to fall apart.  My kids already feel safe in this way but some families have to first show the child this because emotions have been punished in the past.  And then I accept however they DO fall apart, and be their emotional rock while they purge.  

It can be challenging at first, but it gets easier, and the meltdowns get fewer and fewer as past hurts are processed, then they're only dealing with fresh ones so they are less intense and less often.  My daughter only had a few after I started this when she was very little.  If my son keeps harping about what he can't have, I just keep gently saying he can't have it, and that I understand how frustrating that is, and that I am here for him while he deals with it.  

It gives us our power to parent back.  It is very liberating.  And the bonus is, you don't have to do things we as parents would rather not do, such as punish, because it becomes moot... you suddenly understand where all their behaviour comes from, and what it needs to be addressed.

[WhimsicalMama]

Ms Fortune-I can completely sympathize with your situation. I greatly value a calm, cooperative environment so I am willing to let the kids "hold the banana" but not the matches, if that makes any sense. My husband thinks these episodes of conflict precipitated by his saying no are a necessary learning experience, but for the life of me I can't figure out what the children actually learn from any of this. Except that dad says no alot and won't let me hold the banana. I gather from your post that your frustration stems from the feeling that your husband creates unnecessary conflict by saying no when you can see there is another alternative that wouldn't result in an unhappy, battle of the wills with a tantruming toddler. It's great that your dh values GD, and there is definitely a learning curve. If you spend more time with your child, you've had more of a chance to notice the cause/effect relationship of saying no. Therefore, you've already modified your approach accordingly. Maybe he just needs more time to figure it out? If you must bring it up with him to maintain a home environment that you are comfortable living in, the conversation will go better if your dh doesn't feel criticized, which so often leads to defensiveness and then you won't be heard at all. Be empathetic to his feelings as well-he may be very frustrated with the difficulties he is encountering without realizing the root cause. Don't worry that you aren't disciplining your child. As others said, discipline is teaching. Children learn by example so leading by example is a great strategy! You don't want to end up with a child who says no to all of your requests, another good reason to avoid saying no as often as you can. With my first child, I wondered when to start using discipline. But it began with my clumsy unsure attempts to nurse him in the first few minutes of life, where he first learned he could depend on me to nurture, care for, and comfort him.

[Adasmommy]

Originally Posted by kateye 

This thread has been very informative--thanks to all the posters!  Calm, I'm so interested in your take, it's very refreshing!  I know that as an adult I still have tantrums (embarrassing but true!) and the thing I need most at that time is a huge hug from my husband, not a big lecture about how I'm misbehaving.  I had a day yesterday with my toddler where he was constantly pushing my buttons--throwing toys, putting toys in his mouth, throwing his books on the floor, drooling drinks and chewed food out of his mouth, etc.  ALL DAY.  I know this is probably a reaction to our new babe (4 weeks old) and that he was just needing attention/feeling frustrated.  I was trying to be firm by telling him he is not allowed to do those things but also trying to give him the undivided attention he surely needs but the behavior did not really improve.  We did have a great morning today, but I'm sure there will be many more days of "acting out".  Just wondering how you deal with the "misbehaviors" as the come and how you prepare yourself and the environment for the upcoming meltdown.  Or if there are other resources for how you do things, could you point me to them?

Thank you! 

I know you were asking Calm, but I have insomnia and am butting in!  I think it helps a lot to stop thinking of it or calling it misbehavior, and instead think of it the way you explained it above, as needing attention/feeling frustrated.  The more you can help with that, the less the undesirable behavior will occur.  When I act out, it's generally because I haven't had enough sleep, or I'm stressed and need a hug and some empathy.  Or a long break.  Maybe think what makes you feel better when you're at your breaking point and try to give that to your son.  Does he need to get out (to the park)?  Does the day need to be less hectic (make a conscious effort to slow down, turn off talk radio, skip errands for a day, whatever)?  Or just read books together all day (working around the four week old, of course--but at least that age is usually easy to read books around).  Fill him up with love, recharge him.  Maybe take a break from telling him what's not allowed.  He probably already knows (since those are the things he's doing when frustrated).  Oh, and talk to him about how he feels, let him know that you understand.  Even tell him that you feel that way sometimes and what you find helpful at those times.  Just like you said above, what helps you when you throw a tantrum.  Sounds like you're on the right track :)

I'm going to go try to sleep now so I can be nice to my kids all day tomorrow ;-)

[intentionalmama]

Originally Posted by Calm 
 

Sometimes they have a build up of emotions that need releasing and will have what we call the BCS (broken cookie syndrome).  It's where they melt down over something like a broken cookie but really it is just they can no longer hold on to their feelings - past hurts or current ones - and it pours out over something unrelated and relatively small.

My son will be eight in three months; and it has been a long time since he has had a "tantrum".  But a couple of days ago, he went skiing for 8 hours with my husband. He was exhausted; but really wanted to go see an old timers NHL hockey game. So they went; and had a great time.  When I picked them up, he accidentally hit his ear on the car door when he was opening it.  He started to cry. Actually to wale. In the car he sounded like a cat in heat  He didn't want to be held or comforted. He just wanted  to sit in the car while we drove and  howl.   It had been so long since I had seen my son get so upset. It brought back memories of when he would just cry and cry and cry sometimes.   My husband was great; he knew my son was overtired, and while we were driving he kept gently saying "It's ok, just let it out. And my son would cry harder. (he seemed to know this is what he needed to do)" If my husband and I started to try and talk -he would have begin to cry a loud frustrated type of cry.  We realized he needed this space; and for us to just hold it for him. .  At one point I offered him a kleenex, he sobbed thank you.  And then just continued to cry. When we got home he had just startled to settle down.  He was calm and we carried him inside. He got his teeth brushed and went to bed where I read him a story.  He was so peaceful.    In this case it was because he was tired. But I remember when he was younger;  it could be anything that he had been holding in and needed to release.  I found ie) holding him and rubbing his back; or if he wanted space - giving him the space and checking in on him; and sometimes talking to him about the "hurt" (sometimes this was after the emotions had subsided) seemed to help him process through the emotions.   It has been a almost three  years since I can remember the last time he really freaked out. I think it is healthy for  children  to not repress emotions; but help them go through them in a safe way.

[kateye]

Originally Posted by Adasmommy 

I know you were asking Calm, but I have insomnia and am butting in!  I think it helps a lot to stop thinking of it or calling it misbehavior, and instead think of it the way you explained it above, as needing attention/feeling frustrated.  The more you can help with that, the less the undesirable behavior will occur.  When I act out, it's generally because I haven't had enough sleep, or I'm stressed and need a hug and some empathy.  Or a long break.  Maybe think what makes you feel better when you're at your breaking point and try to give that to your son.  Does he need to get out (to the park)?  Does the day need to be less hectic (make a conscious effort to slow down, turn off talk radio, skip errands for a day, whatever)?  Or just read books together all day (working around the four week old, of course--but at least that age is usually easy to read books around).  Fill him up with love, recharge him.  Maybe take a break from telling him what's not allowed.  He probably already knows (since those are the things he's doing when frustrated).  Oh, and talk to him about how he feels, let him know that you understand.  Even tell him that you feel that way sometimes and what you find helpful at those times.  Just like you said above, what helps you when you throw a tantrum.  Sounds like you're on the right track :)

I'm going to go try to sleep now so I can be nice to my kids all day tomorrow ;-)

I hope you were able to get some sleep!  Thank you so much for taking your middle of the night time to reply :)  I found what you said to be very helpful!  I desperately feel like my DS and I need to have kind of another "babymoon" of our own while I just spend time showing him love and giving the "don'ts" a break.  Here's what worries me though--I don't want him to think that what he is doing is acceptable (yelling in the baby's ear, etc.) and these things are happening even when I am giving him lots of positive attention...I know I need to give him even more, but I don't think the behavior is 100% preventable even with tons of focused attention.  So what should my reaction be if he does these things?  Thank you in advance for any advice!!

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by kateye 

I hope you were able to get some sleep!  Thank you so much for taking your middle of the night time to reply :)  I found what you said to be very helpful!  I desperately feel like my DS and I need to have kind of another "babymoon" of our own while I just spend time showing him love and giving the "don'ts" a break.  Here's what worries me though--I don't want him to think that what he is doing is acceptable (yelling in the baby's ear, etc.) and these things are happening even when I am giving him lots of positive attention...I know I need to give him even more, but I don't think the behavior is 100% preventable even with tons of focused attention.  So what should my reaction be if he does these things?  Thank you in advance for any advice!!

When he DS's tantrum interfere with the health and safety of his sister or myself or DH we physically remove him to a safe place.  Once for example he had a terrible melt down in the car while his dad was driving down a busy highway and he was kicking and screaming.   It was dangerous.

We pulled over and took him out of the car seat and held him until he calmed down.  It took about a half hour.  DH called our friends and let them know we would be late and DS sat on my lap until he was ready to go back in the car seat.  Calmly.

When DS gets so upset now that his flailing is dangerous he is taken to his room or my room where he can have his feelings safely.

Screaming in the baby's ear sounds like he has some serious anger towards the LO...any chance he has some unresolved feelings about having a new baby in the family?

[kateye]

Sorry--I feel like I'm getting off topic from the OP and taking a lot of attention here!  I think I overstated my DS's screaming--I should say screaming near DD's ear--he's not yelling at her, just trying to get my attention and since the babe is usually in the carrier on me or in my arms nursing, he's quite close to her ears.  His behavior is not aggressive, angry, or dangerous, just attention-seeking, but that doesn't make it much easier to handle (if it was, I think your example of just holding the child or giving them a safe space to act is a good one)!  I'm quite sure he has unresolved feelings about the baby--she's only been here for 4 weeks and he's used to being the center of our attention 100% of the time...

[DevaMajka]

Discipline as in teaching, from birth like the others have said.

Discipline as in having certain expectations that will be enforced gently (such as "you are not allowed on the table while other people are eating"), probably starting slowly around 18mos. This would also include saying "no" when you have to, and not distracting them from being upset. Though I always try to redirect to something similar that is acceptable to us both.

Discipline as in punishment (including time outs), never.  (though sometimes I do take away the object of misbehavior. Ie: if he's hitting the dog with a stick, I take the stick away and explain that I'm going to take away the temptation to hit the dog with it. I don't do it in a "you were bad, so now you must suffer" type of way, so I see it somewhat less than punishment, kwim?)

I think enforcing boundaries is always ok, though you do need to keep in mind that kiddos have limited coping abilities and are very curious about everything. I think that not allowing a kid to squash a banana is ok, no matter the age, if it truly does matter to the person who is saying no. But I also think it's ok to let them squash the banana, if it IS ok. So for me, saying no depends on if it's a true no, or if one is saying no just to "assert their authority." I don't like the latter at all, personally.

[Lisa1970]

It depends on what you mean by discipline. I mean, if my child throws something over the balcony, I say no. If he does it again, I give him time out. He is 19 months old tomorrow but was given his first time out at 17 months old (it was 60 seconds long). A couple days ago, he wanted to play outside, but it was raining and cold. So, he started screaming bloody murder until I told him we would not have that screaming. Oddly, he just stopped and found something else to do. That was kind of funny because I did not think he would stop based on that.

[sarahquinn]

Im a big beliver in starting disipline from birth.... meaning building a trusting relationship so when later on you have to say no they are more likely to trust what your saying because you have never broken their trust. But it sounds like your a mother who believes in that too. Ive found that for most children( and adults) if you get down at eye level and explain why....  it helps to ease the frustration from the no. Also trying a differnt word or phrase, instead of saying "No"   try   " Not right now" or ( for an example) " can i hold the banana?".... "Daddy's holding the banana right now you can have it after after dinner"    ( just a silly example but you get the point : ) ) 

[veganfox]

You ladies rock! This thread is eye-opening. DS is 22 months old and sometimes a handful. Being a stay-at-home mom and responsible for most of the disciplining can take a toll on my sanity, but all the suggestions I read here make it so much easier. Thanks!!!! {{hugs}}

[Calm]

Originally Posted by kateye 

This thread has been very informative--thanks to all the posters!  Calm, I'm so interested in your take, it's very refreshing!  I know that as an adult I still have tantrums (embarrassing but true!) and the thing I need most at that time is a huge hug from my husband, not a big lecture about how I'm misbehaving.  I had a day yesterday with my toddler where he was constantly pushing my buttons--throwing toys, putting toys in his mouth, throwing his books on the floor, drooling drinks and chewed food out of his mouth, etc.  ALL DAY.  I know this is probably a reaction to our new babe (4 weeks old) and that he was just needing attention/feeling frustrated.  I was trying to be firm by telling him he is not allowed to do those things but also trying to give him the undivided attention he surely needs but the behavior did not really improve.  We did have a great morning today, but I'm sure there will be many more days of "acting out".  Just wondering how you deal with the "misbehaviors" as the come and how you prepare yourself and the environment for the upcoming meltdown.  Or if there are other resources for how you do things, could you point me to them?

Thank you! 

You're welcome, Kat.  Sorry for the delay, I broke my foot!    

It's hard to explain this and do it any justice and it not be a novel, so here's the short version, followed by the longer version... 

Aletha Solter of Aware Parenting has books and articles on this.  

Books

10 Principles

articles such as...

Why do Children Misbehave?

Understanding Tears and Tantrums

Dealing with behaviour I don't like and preparing would, in short, be first making sure I am in the right head space so I don't react from a place of either frustration or even anger.   Whatever I'm doing: the net, cooking... I stop and tell myself "gentle, patience, this isn't about me, this is about him, he is doing exactly what he should be doing, I have to find out why he is doing it." and get on his level and empathise.  I might take him to our releasing space to cry or rage in my arms.  Or I do play/laughter. 

My kids beg for rough and physical play with us, they love it, and if they don't get it at least once a day, they aren't as easy to deal with.  It builds connection, and with connection, you have power over all behaviour.  I found it helpful to learn many years ago that it isn't attention a child craves but connection.  The difference is hard to describe but you can give someone attention just by looking, you can't connect with someone just by looking.  When parents dismiss a child's behaviour as "oh he just wants attention" they have it ass backwards.  Connection is what they are hard wired to build from birth.  Always question the connection, and you'll find a direct link between shoddy behaviour and a lack of connection with you.  Remember to go back to the connection, that's "baseline".  

Because that's deficient, I've gone into more detail...

First, to explain what "he should be doing that" means, this 3 minute video by Naomi Aldort might help: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H75gbkLvIRA

Accepting release of emotions is a unique parenting approach in our culture, I've discovered over the years of looking and interacting.  AP tends to be a big prevention philosophy, which has limits that become evident as soon as something was failed to be prevented.  Then AP is big on distraction, which I find very dismissing and invalidating.  When prevention and distraction fail and the tears are inevitable, it is big on doing whatever it takes to stop the crying/raging.  These issues are where this style is different to AP... DH and I don't distract, invalidate, or turn inside out trying to stop emotional release with rocking, pacifiers, breast feeding, blankets or toys. But at the same time, punishments, bribes and rewards are not required.  I've been parenting for 9 years without them, if they were necessary, surely I'd have needed them by now.  We have tried to stop a crying child, of course, and we've tried distraction and definitely live trying to prevent things occurring but we didn't feel a sense of rightness about some of those things.  

How it works for us for instance... we first have to examine ourselves to make sure that what he is doing is actually unacceptable behaviour and in need of curtailing.  Most of it can be put down to experimenting with cause and effect because it is a favourite past time of the toddler set.  (eg, I dropped something yesterday and it bounced... if I drop this vase, what happens?).  

If he is upset, that one is obvious, but if it is behaviour that disrupts his sister or interferes with others in some way or he's clingy, whiny, demanding... I stop what I'm doing, go to him and crouch down and if he lets me, I hug him, I ask if he needs to get some feelings out and he usually says, "swing chair swing chair".  We go to the swing chair (we have one bolted to our bedroom ceiling) and he has some sort of release and I listen and occasionally try to give his feelings words (you sound sad; that must have been very frustrating... that kind of thing).  For six months now, if I get it wrong, he corrects me, like one time, "you sound very cranky, darling."  and he said, "No.  No cranky.  I sad."  This has been very helpful to learn more about him.

He almost always demands something.  Like "stand up stand up", if I stand up, he demands I sit down... this used to go on an on, and no matter what I did, he was unsatisfied.  I eventually cottoned on to his needs... he needs a reason to release, so he creates one.   Things are much faster now, he asks for something, I say "you can have it soon, let's get some feelings out first" and he melts down.  He never wants it when we're finished, btw.

Yesterday morning is an example of how I use play and laughter for healing and switching his behaviour. The slightest provocation had him screaming at someone and he was really clingy with me.  I said "let's go get some feelings out" and he put a teddy on the chair and said, "mama get it."  I took my cue and said, "I'll get it soon" and he started screaming "mama get it mama get it and we went to the swing chair.  In a couple of minutes he looked at me and it felt like an appropriate time so I said, "You can't push ME over, I'm too big and strong!" and he shoved my chest a little and I pretended to be shocked at his strength and he smiled and did it again with more strength.  This time I said WHOA and fell backwards and he giggled.  I kept provoking him but letting him tackle me and win.

This gives him a sense of power that he is trying to get by harassing his sister, and a release valve of all kinds of feelings via laughter.  Even better if the  play is appropriate to whatever my son wants to play/process.  If a dog scared him for instance, I will pretend he is a big scary dog and (without mocking him) I'll be fearful but funny and he thinks that is hilarious and wants to play it repetitively for a while.  Best examples found in the book Playful Parenting

Kids live in a world where they have little control.  Aggression is a sign that they feel powerless, paradoxically.  Here is a vid of a boy in such play that heals aggression. 

My son just recently finished a stage of tossing all the books from one of his bookshelves onto the floor.  I now know most behaviour ends as mysteriously as it began, whether you smack 'em, put them in time out, yell at them, threaten or lecture... the only true remedy is time, patience, tolerance and creating an environment friendly to children.  

With the books I didn't shame him about it with a look or a word, I just picked a time when he was in a good mood and made a game of picking them back up, I said, "if you're finished sorting the books... shall we put them back this way or this way?" (one laying on the side, one upright) and he decided all laying down was best.  He threw them off the shelves a couple of times a week after that and each time I managed to get him to put them back away and I think he got tired of picking them up.  Books stay on the shelf now.

Our home is very zen, everything we care one iota about is packed away and we live with only the bare essentials of couch and bookshelves.  All kitchen breakables are in a magnetically locked cupboard but the rest of the kitchen equipment he can use.  Which means that yes, almost every day the kitchen floor was strewn with stuff but I try to remember ... what else would I expect he do?  Sit in a corner and read??  We've a few years to go for that yet.

He's sick to death of his toys, as am I, so it only makes sense that my stuff is more appealing... until he tires of it, which he did.  My daughter has her bedroom and she knows that if she leaves something unattended anywhere else in the house it is subject to being lost or ruined ... there's only so much blame can be passed to children, depending on age.  At a toddler's age, around here they are blameless... if they broke something, who is the idiot that left it where they could get it?  It was shown it you give a baby an object they will smell it, taste it, listen to it, feel it, then they will try to break it to see how it works... all in the space of 90 seconds.  Toddlers are less fast, perhaps because we've trained this efficiency out of them, but they still put objects through their paces... expecting them not to is setting both yourself and your child up for heartache and arguments and time outs that are really the parent's fault.  

A jungle environment is what they are driven to explore in, finding a way to make one helps.  Having outside water play, playdough, sticks, rocks, leaves, stuff to break, open, tear and throw... that kind of thing.  It's usually a choice between many years of battles, or organising his environment to fit his maturity and readjusting how you see childish behaviour.  What makes sense to him won't make sense to you... and along the way, as the bookshelf example shows, we still model what we want, and show them how we'd prefer they behave, but we also bend to the fact that we have a toddler in the house therefore it is a science lab so protect all valuables and then get out of the way.  

People used to promise me that children must be taught and molded into how to behave in society.  "oh if you don't show them firm boundaries now they'll walk all over you or become criminals"  I called "bullshit" based on years of anthropological studies.  My kids were never taught manners for example, but they are very polite.  My son, who is three on Saturday, has said, "you're welcome" when he is thanked since he turned 2.  Relax into the knowledge that they will not be doing this stuff in a few years, each stage brings the same new challenges of that age as they lay to rest the challenges of the past stages... no matter WHAT you do.  All you do if you try to force these stages faster is create a rift and go to bed wishing you'd been a nicer parent.  

With yelling in the baby's ear, this is an example of:

- first protect the baby.

- the child should be doing it, because he is doing it; the question is why is he doing it.  Sometimes the reason is obvious (feeling jealous etc), sometimes not so obvious.  Usually, it is a lack of connection.

- assess his reaction when asked to stop or when prevented.  If he melts down, see point below.  If he resists, insists, rebels, does it again, etc, we want to tease out the release of feelings, which in this age bracket is almost never verbal; get on his level and go through feelings and needs (courtesy of Non-Violent Communication)... with little ones, you have to try to be their mouthpiece, older kids are easier in this regard... offer words for his feelings "it's hard to have a new baby in the house; do you feel angry and frustrated?" "You are very loved, you are my special boy." (if the need to feel valued has been threatened)  

- if he melts down, just be there, listen, empathise, hold him if he wants it.  If he gets aggressive, he might benefit from rough play or you can show him how to punch a pillow while you give him feedback like,  "my my, you ARE angry!"  The success of this process is not only due to the release of emotion, but to the establishment of a firm connection.

- at other times, play scenes out where he can work through the issue, allow him to lead, maybe try something like, "Hippo has a new baby sister.  He doesn't like her, he wants her to go away." and see if he shows interest.

Ack.  It really isn't easy to write because one thing leads to another.  Essentially though, it is about maintaining connection, and reestablishing it after even the shortest of separations, and again throughout the day... and with that, you'll be able to divine from that connection all the information about his needs.  Without connection, we need rules, protocols, time out, books, plans... sigh... it just becomes too hard.  

Edited by Calm - 3/31/11 at 3:37am

[Calm]

Originally Posted by UmmRiyam 

Rewards and punishments exist in so many ways in our lives.  It's also the way of many religions.  Many believe that there will be a judgment day, and everyone will be judged by God for our actions and then be rewarded or punished.  Many people believe in heaven and hell.  So, how is that so damaging to us to want rewards and fear punishments?  Doesn't it make us want to be better and do better?  Why not use that with our kids in some situations? 

Hi UmmRiyam  .  

This book goes into great detail, highly recommended: 

Punished by Rewards: The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A's, Praise, and Other Bribes

I don't think the fact that rewards and punishment exist in our culture is sound evidence they are a good thing.  Many awful things also exists in our culture, doesn't make them something to emulate.  Plus, anything that exists in our culture is evidence that it is a bad thing, generally, considering the state of our people, society, and the planet - which we're destroying.  We've messed everything up, and a ridiculously high percentage of people are medicated or at the very least, highly dissatisfied with life.  I don't think anything we do is evidence we should continue to do it, quite the opposite.  In fact, I use as my yard stick "which culture does this, and how well functioning is this culture?" therefore, when it comes to the white western culture... eeeerk.  I'm not interested because we're such a self-obsessed, unhealthy, obnoxious, greedy bunch of brats - and it's no secret, it's a cliche for a reason.

The difference between intrinsic motivation and extrinsic, is with extrinsic you need the motivator to get the job done.  Intrinsic motivation gets something done without that need.  In fact, studies have shown that extrinsic rewards eliminate the desire to do the task at all.  For example they studied children doing art work:  they all started doing it just out of the joy of doing the art.  Some of the children were rewarded for their art, and after a while, those ones lost enthusiasm for the art, most eventually quit unless the reward became greater and greater.  The kids who were not interfered with in such a way kept the same level of enthusiasm.  

There are areas of our life that are called "rewards" but really aren't.  We are not "rewarded" for our jobs for instance, we are paid in much the same way barter functioned - you can have this lettuce if I can have that cabbage.  That isn't a reward and can't be compared to one.  So when it all boils down, our society doesn't really reward you often at all once you are an adult.  There are sports and so on, but how many of us really get a reward of any sort for doing anything?  We all deserve them, but we don't get them.  So in childhood we were first messed with by shown that when you do something you get something in return other than the satisfaction of the task itself - only to be disillusioned in adulthood by the fact that there are actually NO rewards, we're expected to do all we do just because it needs to be done.  

I learned from this disillusionment by trying something different with my kids.  I show them the joy of a task, how to extract the greatest reward from the task itself.  My father taught me that, he did not reward us like the rest of society did, but he modeled great joy in all he did, from the dirtiest, sweat inducing jobs through to simply washing dishes  - he sang, he made funny songs and jokes, and he could be found doing this even when he thought he was home alone.  He didn't seem to distinguish between work and play... it was all play.  With the bookshelf example in my last post, I sing, I play, and nothing motivates them to join me in a task more than seeing me enjoying it.  

As for religion, there are many who do not need religion to do the right thing.  The religious still kill each other and act like total brats, so it doesn't seem to be something that actually works to keep us plebs in check anyway.  It's another example of how fear and rewards are limited, at best, as control tactics.

 

 I believe there should be a balance between GD and other forms of discipline. 

I don't quite understand this.  There should be a balance between gentle discipline and non-gentle discipline?  

Edited by Calm - 3/31/11 at 2:06pm