At what age do you begin discipline? - Page 3

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by Calm 

Hi UmmRiyam  .  

This book goes into great detail, highly recommended: 

Punished by Rewards: The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A's, Praise, and Other Bribes

I don't think the fact that rewards and punishment exist in our culture is sound evidence they are a good thing.  Many awful things also exists in our culture, doesn't make them something to emulate.  Plus, anything that exists in our culture is evidence that it is a bad thing, generally, considering the state of our people, society, and the planet - which we're destroying.  We've messed everything up, and a ridiculously high percentage of people are medicated or at the very least, highly dissatisfied with life.  I don't think anything we do is evidence we should continue to do it, quite the opposite.  In fact, I use as my yard stick "which culture does this, and how well functioning is this culture?" therefore, when it comes to the white western culture... eeeerk.  I'm not interested because we're such a self-obsessed, unhealthy, obnoxious, greedy bunch of brats - and it's no secret, it's a cliche for a reason.

The difference between intrinsic motivation and extrinsic, is with extrinsic you need the motivator to get the job done.  Intrinsic motivation gets something done without that need.  In fact, studies have shown that extrinsic rewards eliminate the desire to do the task at all.  For example they studied children doing art work:  they all started doing it just out of the joy of doing the art.  Some of the children were rewarded for their art, and after a while, those ones lost enthusiasm for the art, most eventually quit unless the reward became greater and greater.  The kids who were not interfered with in such a way kept the same level of enthusiasm.  

There are areas of our life that are called "rewards" but really aren't.  We are not "rewarded" for our jobs for instance, we are paid in much the same way barter functioned - you can have this lettuce if I can have that cabbage.  That isn't a reward and can't be compared to one.  So when it all boils down, our society doesn't really reward you often at all once you are an adult.  There are sports and so on, but how many of us really get a reward of any sort for doing anything?  We all deserve them, but we don't get them.  So in childhood we were first messed with by shown that when you do something you get something in return other than the satisfaction of the task itself - only to be disillusioned in adulthood by the fact that there are actually NO rewards, we're expected to do all we do just because it needs to be done.  

I agree with almost everything you have written here, Calm, but I disagree with this.  I get bonuses for doing extra jobs above and beyond my normal job expectations or if my job is particularly well done, and our admin team regularly reards staff with pats on the back, small gifts or special days/events as a reward for a job well done.  I do not think this is abnormal and I see my salary as a reward, too.  I could be paid much less for what I do, but because I do it well, I am paid accordingly.  I used to earn minimum wage, but now with time and experience I earn more. I  think of this as a reward and it is motivation for doing my job.  The more we are rewarded in the job the more motivated we feel to do the job and do it well.  I love my job and love doing it and have at times done my job without being paid very much but we always have been recognized and rewarded for a job well done be it monetarily, in material gifts, or with special treats...it is a key tool of Human resources and not at all a myth.

I learned from this disillusionment by trying something different with my kids.  I show them the joy of a task, how to extract the greatest reward from the task itself.  My father taught me that, he did not reward us like the rest of society did, but he modeled great joy in all he did, from the dirtiest, sweat inducing jobs through to simply washing dishes  - he sang, he made funny songs and jokes, and he could be found doing this even when he thought he was home alone.  He didn't seem to distinguish between work and play... it was all play.  With the bookshelf example in my last post, I sing, I play, and nothing motivates them to join me in a task more than seeing me enjoying it.  

I wish I could get it up for doing the dishes or washing clothes...I just can't.  How do you do it?!

As for religion, there are many who do not need religion to do the right thing.  The religious still kill each other and act like total brats, so it doesn't seem to be something that actually works to keep us plebs in check anyway.  It's another example of how fear and rewards are limited, at best, as control tactics.

I don't quite understand this.  There should be a balance between gentle discipline and non-gentle discipline?  

I was wondering the same thing!

[kateye]

Calm--THANK YOU!!  so very much--this is just the kind of thing I have been desperately looking for.  Off to do more reading/research....hope your foot heals quickly!!

[letitiah81]

The bigger issue to me is the inconsistency played out in front of the kids.  If daddy gave a consequence (short of being abusive) Mom needs to support it in front of the kids.  Then later discuss it and decide on the best approach for next time.  My DH and I have these discussions often, but we always back each other up in front of the kids.  THis makes for a more consistent household and a better marriage.

[Calm]

I've never been rewarded as an adult, Rebekah.  I'm not saying it never happens, some people compete in sports, too.  But most of us are not rewarded... esp not in the way we reward children "you tidied your room, here's a gold star... you finished your homework, here's a candy...".  That's just not sustainable and teaches nothing.  I can't see payment for work as a reward though... that is an exchange.  If we can see any payment (even that which we think is more than we're worth) then we must by extension see any payment for services a reward, and obviously they're not.  When I treat a client, they aren't rewarding me with money, they are paying me in an exchange for services rendered... this exchange is legally enforced, too.  If I do my job well, I am paid more but again, it's not a reward, it's what my services are worth.  The rest of what you mentioned is a reward.. the pats on the back and bonuses, I agree with that.  

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by Calm 

I've never been rewarded as an adult, Rebekah.  I'm not saying it never happens, some people compete in sports, too.  But most of us are not rewarded... esp not in the way we reward children "you tidied your room, here's a gold star... you finished your homework, here's a candy...".  That's just not sustainable and teaches nothing.  I can't see payment for work as a reward though... that is an exchange.  If we can see any payment (even that which we think is more than we're worth) then we must by extension see any payment for services a reward, and obviously they're not.  When I treat a client, they aren't rewarding me with money, they are paying me in an exchange for services rendered... this exchange is legally enforced, too.  If I do my job well, I am paid more but again, it's not a reward, it's what my services are worth. 

The rest of what you mentioned is a reward.. the pats on the back and bonuses, I agree with that.  

So by that logic a child who renders a service could get paid in the currency of their choice be it gold stars, candy or cash?  I guess I am not sure what the difference is?  I don't mean to be obtuse, but since I pay a house keeper to clean my room, if DS cleaned his room (ergo meaning I would not need to pay the housekeeper to clean his room, shouldn't he get payment in exchange?  I mean aren't chores and duties services rendered? (not finishing homework though....that's part of learning.  The reward is learning something new and gaining practice with a new skill.  That is the "exchange" between teacher and student.)

So...Do your clients ever tip you?  Would you see that as areward for services they deemed above and beyond, or just a reflection of what they felt you were worth?  I think I may have a harder time separating the two than you do.  Some things are chores and I will never be convinced that anybody genuinely enjoys cleaning or doing laundry.  I am more than happy to pay someone else to do it, be it my housekeeper or my child. 

Is it really that rare to get rewards at work or in real life?  I really don't think it is.  I worked in HR out of University.  It was pretty common practice back then and still is in all the places I have worked....am I just extremely lucky?  Do you not get a notice in the company newsletter acknowledging a job well done after a large successful project?  Even if you wrk for yourself, do you not occassionally reward yourself with a day off or a bottle of champagne to celebrate your success? Even in our consumerism we are rewarded for our loyalty to a store or restaurant, by occassional free cups of coffee or an extra bagel in the bag.  In what way is that different from the gold star for meeting or exceeding expectations or responsibilities at home as a child?  Do you see what I mean? 

Obviously I am not trying to convince you, I'm just trying to understand what you think the difference is...mainly because I quite admire the things you have posted here and I wonder if I could be doing this better with my kids somehow.

[Calm]

The best thing I can say is to read that book Punished By Rewards.  He answers all those types of questions and then some.

Rewarding ourselves is the way it should be, it's not ideal, but at least we are then relying on ourselves which is partially intrinsic.  

I also think that not everyone dislikes washing... some dislike making beds but love dishes, some dislike laundry but love mowing.  You dislike cleaning and doing laundry but I'm sure you don't mean you couldn't believe others don't dislike that.  My father loved life, and life is all those things, we can't isolate parts of it, esp the parts that are in it every day, and say we don't like it - not without suffering.  Which is what most people do, they dislike something because culture has told them it is a task that sucks.  But just because culture tells us that, doesn't make it true.  What's the difference between dipping photo paper under the developing liquid and a dish under detergent water?  Only our mind tells us there is a difference... the photographer tells herself there is more reward in the photo development.

No matter what we do, we're just doing something ordinary with a different backdrop... we're still inhaling, exhaling, walking, sitting, talking... it's not what we're doing that makes an experience good or bad, but our perception.  The most fundamental secret to happiness is also the most simple.  Captured in the cliche, "Happiness is not the destination, it is the journey."  If we are always looking beyond what is into what could be or what we'd prefer to be doing, then we miss the constant, present opportunity for joy and contentment.  

The joy is not derived from the task but from our perception of the task.  Joy is either within you in the moment or it isn't.  Have you ever, even just once, enjoyed cleaning?  Did you ever do it with a giddy feeling of wonder and joy?  If you have, you'll remember that it wasn't that the task was any different, it was that you were different.  When we are truly present in this very moment right now, then we can only experience joy.  If we are too busy thinking about yesterday, that girl at the mall, all the things I could be achieving instead of mopping this floor... then there is no joy there.  

When we are here now, in this moment, whatever we are doing is where the joy is... whether the backdrop is a gorgeous tropical sunset or a cloudy rainy concrete London street - that's just a backdrop.  If we are not here now, then we may indeed rely on a reward, which only intensifies our distraction from this moment and puts it firmly on "later": ie, "When I'm finished THIS bunch of crap, I'll get THAT bunch of good stuff", the current moment is definitely elusive to the person focused on rewards.

I do think it is rare to get rewards in adult life.  Unless you count a pay check.  Ask any mother... what rewards do you get?   She won't have any extrinsic ones on that list.  Me personally, I get no extrinsic rewards, not even for work (which I don't currently do for payment, I treat occasionally for free, but I'm including when I do work for money).  And if we count freebies for loyalty and so on, there are rare rewards but can we say that is the same, in any context, to rewarding a child for doing what needs to be done?  It may be just as manipulative, to reward a customer for loyalty or reward a child for cleaning... true.  We do it for the same purpose: we want them to repeat that behaviour.  We are hoping to encourage the behaviour because we don't think the coffee, or cleaning, in itself, is enough to entice that.  

Rewards may occur, on a rare occasion, or more if you live a city/social/working/sporting life, but overall, it is not common for most of us, and is generally not comparable to the reward system children are introduced to.

Whether we agree or not that payment for services is a reward, the fact is, rewards perpetuate and encourage a life of illusions.  A life lived "tomorrow", a life where we are never truly here now, but in constant chasing of the bigger better moment.  America was cursed with "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".  What they should have written is simply "Life, liberty and happiness".  Then perhaps they would stop pursuing it and start to be it.

[hakeber]

Thanks for that.  I see what you're saying.  I still will never find joy in cleaning.  Never have, never will.  It's no more or less awful than eating dry unsalted lima beans.  But then that's why I pay someone else to do it for me so I can spend my time doing things that I truly enjoy.  Maybe that's why I see my salary as a reward, because  I love my job and it's like total gravy that I get money for it!

I also feel very much rewarded when my son draws me a picture or my daughter (like she just did this second) looks up and gives me a milky grin like I am the best thing in her life.  They're not the sort of rewards most kids in a materialistic society are given, that's true.  But they feel very much to me like the gold stars I got at school when I was a kid.  There I was just doing what I wanted to do anyway, what was expected of me, what made me happy, and out of nowhere this lovely little acknowledgement, a tiny token of appreciation to remind me that I'm special.  It was nice especially when the task was especially hard, painful or tedious.

I'm not being obtuse, I can see what the dangers are and how they can be overused and become a warped expression of value, how the achievement can be all about the reward.  I usually spend the first semester of any school year untraining kids to expect As and 100s, stickers, and sweeties for merely showing up and following instructions or caring one iota about learning, and to stop expecting rewards just for following basic student guidelines.  It is an arduous task to undue unhealthy rewards systems, but then when they do achieve that A , they see it as a symbol for what the true reward is, knowledge and stronger skills.   I do get that, and I see the dangers first hand.  On the other hand, I also need a reward to force myself to eat my lima beans, so to speak, if the lima beans must be eaten .  I just have a hard time comparing photo developing with dish washing...I know what the dish is going to look like when I take it out of the water...it will be the same as before, but with less food on it.  A photo will be a piece of art, unique and is a discovery.  As a result, I have a hard time not offering the odd spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down, ya know?  Like blowing bubbles off the terrace when we're done with doing dishes, or taking the boy out for ice cream if he tidies his toys up without complaining.  Not to the point where he expects the reward, but now and then to say "THANKS!  You're awesome!" 

[Calm]

I don't think you're being obtuse at all.   I'm just the same when I don't agree with something... it's like, well, teach me or explain further because I just ain't seein' it, luv.  It's a shame we're all a little worried about going deep into any issue, we fear looking pushy, "harping" on an issue... all number of things that prevent us from truly diving deep into things and pressing each other for more intimacy, depth, mental processing.  I also find it interesting that people can't disagree without making it personal.  I often message people I haven't agreed with on a thread as a personal courtesy, as a human contact thing.. I mean after all, we're human and aren't we trying to model to our kids all this stuff?  Yet you'd be surprised (or perhaps not) at how often I am outright ignored - they just can't cope with leaving an issue with the topic, not the person.  

What you mentioned above... that's ok by me... we can call anything we want a reward.  As long as we realise that when it is used as bait or a bribe or if it is required to get the job done then it is probably best kept from children and left with us adults... we can drink a bottle of plonk and call it a reward if it floats our boat.  We're the one labeling it a reward not someone else, and that's the first step to healing from reward addiction.

My parents never rewarded me, they didn't give me any kind of thing as thanks or for a job well done - but they never punished me either.  Yet I always knew they felt I was the best thing since sliced bread.  And I was never in any doubt when they were happy or upset with me.  I think in the end we are most comfortable to parent in the way we ourselves were parented... no matter how much we loved or hated their methods.  

I understand how it can be difficult to do something, and initially have to do it mindfully until it becomes automatic.  I found it hard not to praise my kids but I try very hard not to.  I instead had had to learn how to feedback the details.  Instead of "good boy!" I say, "thank you for putting the glass in the sink"  instead of "what a nice painting" I say, "I love the way you used pink for the tree".  Although not easy for me initially, I resonated with the reason why this is more useful and less judgmental.  I know that if I do something, I feel the person really saw it if they give feedback instead of an overall judgement of good/bad.  

[Thedomesticyogi]

This is awesome! With a baby and 3 year old I rarely have time at night to discuss and then forgot the next day. This is a great reminder that I need to make a better effort to make sure we are on the same page. Right now my DH is so hard on my son, and I really want him to be more compassionate and parent encouraging more intrinsic behavior as discussed above. It's so hard! And we end up arguing in front of my son. UGH. We really need some alone time to discuss this! THanks!

[mommy212]

wow this is exactly like my husband and I. Dead frickin on. Exactly. Etc. lol

well ours is younger (18 months( but this is exactly our interaction about this...

[happymommy1]

Birth, begin having expectations as soon as possible.:) If you a re positive, as you state you try to be, then this will carry you for a while. I like to be positive and teach what TO DO not what NOT to do. However you will have to say no or not for baby or not now sometimes. When child accepts it the first time, praise praise praise.

[banarain27]

This is a great thread, lots of really good information.

Edited by banarain27 - 4/12/11 at 10:31am

[anjsmama]

Originally Posted by kateye 

This thread has been very informative--thanks to all the posters!  Calm, I'm so interested in your take, it's very refreshing!  I know that as an adult I still have tantrums (embarrassing but true!) and the thing I need most at that time is a huge hug from my husband, not a big lecture about how I'm misbehaving.  I had a day yesterday with my toddler where he was constantly pushing my buttons--throwing toys, putting toys in his mouth, throwing his books on the floor, drooling drinks and chewed food out of his mouth, etc.  ALL DAY.  I know this is probably a reaction to our new babe (4 weeks old) and that he was just needing attention/feeling frustrated.  I was trying to be firm by telling him he is not allowed to do those things but also trying to give him the undivided attention he surely needs but the behavior did not really improve.  We did have a great morning today, but I'm sure there will be many more days of "acting out".  Just wondering how you deal with the "misbehaviors" as the come and how you prepare yourself and the environment for the upcoming meltdown.  Or if there are other resources for how you do things, could you point me to them?

Thank you! 

I agree this thread has been greatly informative! Especially since I am relatively new to AP & GD. I feel so confident with DD (10 weeks) because it's all I've done with her, but DS' infancy was not as ideal - like someone else mentioned, I absolutely did what I thought was best, but in some areas I was sorely undereducated or misinformed. Just wanted to reply to your post and let you know DS (now 2 years 8 months) had some very similar behavior issues when DH returned to work and it started being just the 3 of us during the day. I tried to be firm in the beginning and it also backfired, and I realized it was because he was just needing love, love, love, love. It took a few weeks, a million hugs, and endless "I love you sweeties" "I know this is frustrating for you" "I understand it makes you angry when I am nursing Jeana" and "Mom still has all the time in the world to play and cook and cuddle with you" .... but now 10 weeks out, he is just happy as a clam, and the only person my DD loves as much as me is her big brother!!! He talks to her and tries to play with her and include her in everything and etc... the adjustment is hard for a toddler who is so used to 100% of your attention, but just keep reassuring him and he will get there! :)