How does this normally work (x-posted)

[physmom]

DD (2 years old) just started a Montessori school this week. She absolutely loves the school and it seems to be a good fit so far so we're really happy with it.  We do have some questions and we're just wondering how this normally plays out.  We were thinking of waiting a month or two before approaching the teacher about them but I'd like to hear from parents dealing with asychronous kids on how this normally works.

DD is sort of all over the place developmentally.  She's really good at puzzles and loves books but her fine motor skills sometimes are a bit behind her friends and her language skills here just don't reflect how well she can actually speak (the Montessori school is in her second language).  So when it comes to her classroom they have a lot of great fine motor skills works like pouring activities, stuff to teach her to pick up after herself (something she definitely needs to work on!), towers that you can build.  Stuff like that works really well for her and when I was in her classroom observing her she seemed really drawn to those activities and I'm guessing  because those are things she needs, you know what I mean? Plus when it comes to social interactions she really seems to be at the right place with the other kids in her room. 

Part of the problem is, though, that the books and puzzles in her room are just not at her level.  She's doing 48+ jigsaw puzzles at home and can even do 100 piece ones with help and in her room they just have insert puzzles.  The books are also very simple in comparison to what we normally read to her (they are basically a picture and a word per page board books whereas at home her favorite books is the Cat in the Hat).  Now, I'm sure the books will be useful for a little bit for her since she needs to work on her language skills in the local language but when I was there watching her she would go over to the books and seem really interested at first and then she seemed realized that book was very short and she'd just go on to the next book.  She basically did this with all the books and then started getting in her bored mood.  Basically the same thing happened with the puzzles too.  She went through and did pretty much all the puzzles they have there (they're all insert ones some with multiple connecting pieces but no jigsaw puzzles) and went through them all and did them and then went on her merry way. 

I guess, I'm just wondering if we should wait to see what the teachers say?  If we should ask them about it and if so when?  I don't exactly want to do that right now because I think she definitely needs some time to adjust to the new environment so I was thinking in 1-2 months? Does that sound reasonable?  FWIW, we had met with two of the teachers before she started and we had mentioned what books/puzzles she likes to do but those don't appear to be her main teacher (actually one of the teachers we met with was in the 3-6 classroom instead of her 0-3 classroom). The director has also mentioned possibly putting her in the 3-6 classroom once she adjusts to the school but we haven't heard anything about that recently. 

Maybe I'm worrying about nothing but it was just one thing that keeps popping up in my mind that I can't seem to let go of. Also, she's in school for 40 hours a week (I work), if it was just for a few hours a day I wouldn't care so much but because she spends so much time there I wonder if I should speak up? 

[ollyoxenfree]

I think your instinct to wait and observe is a good idea. It will allow her to explore the Montessori materials and activities available in the class and she may find new works that she's interested in besides books or puzzles. It's fairly common for children new to Montessori to become fascinated with one or two works, often something they haven't really encountered before. They seem to spend a great amount of time absorbed in those activities. I recall DS bringing home piles of metal inset tracings and "pinning out" pages for weeks and I wondered about reading and math and other skills. He eventually exhausted his interest in this kind of fine motor work and moved on to lots of other works. Other moms talked about their children's fascination with silver and brass polishing or the cylinder knobs or whatever. When I spoke to the teachers about it, it was clear that DS had lots of opportunity to choose other works, but he made his preferences clear. Since he needed to develop his fine motor and pre-writing skills, it wasn't really a problem. 

Waiting a little will also allow the teachers to discover your dd's abilities themselves.  If they are observant and responsive (ideal Montessori teachers) they will recognize the issue and find solutions themselves. Perhaps they will borrow materials from the 3-6 classrooms for her, if they think remaining in the younger class is overall the best place for her right now. Bringing in a few books or the moveable alphabet or some sandpaper letters should be fairly easy for them. I think waiting 3 or 4 weeks is about right. If you find that she is bored, unhappy and the teachers haven't recognized it or responded, then a conference is in order.

Since she is new to the school and I know from other threads that you have had a lot of changes in your lives recently, I think it's natural to request a meeting to take place in about a month anyway, just to check on how she is doing.      

[TiredX2]

This is from a non-Montessori perspective, but...  Is it a choking issue?  Since the room is designed for kids under 3, I would assume they are choosing their materials with mouthing kids in mind.  I would probably just wait it out a bit and then take the move up to the 3-6 room if it seems like a better fit.

[physmom]

tiredX2- that makes so much sense it's scary.   There's one "baby" in the classroom (I guessing she's around 1?) and the rest of kids are DD's age or older but I'm sure for liability reasons they probably couldn't have any small pieces there.  Also, I remember on Weds. a girl brought in a very small hello kitty doll and the teachers removed it immediately so I think you're definitely on to something there.  I think they've been rotating some of the older kids into the other classroom at time (there are a few kids in there that have got to be almost 3 because DD is at the 95th percentile in height in the US and here she's got to be a lot higher even and these kids are quite a bit taller than her) so I'm guessing that's probably how they'll approach it if/when we cross that bridge. 

ollyoxenfree- thanks for confirming my gut feeling on this. So far I've been really impressed with the school and the teachers (and how observant they've been at least when it comes to mood changes in kids and conflicts) so I'm really hoping this will work itself out on its own.  But I also like having a time frame in mind about when to ask about this just in case.  The teachers haven't mentioned anything about having any conferences after a month or so. I'll try and get DH to ask what they do in regards to parent/teacher conferences, in general, there because I really have no clue about that. 

Oh, and I'm definitely completely ok with her doing pouring things all day if that's what interests her.  If it means less spills around the apt that sounds like a God-send to me! I was just more concerned because she did seem to want to look at books/do puzzles but they didn't have any available at her level.  Before starting school pretty much all indoor time either involved reading books or doing puzzles (actually some days we spent almost the entire day just doing puzzles).  Even this morning she refused to go to school before we finished one of her 100 piece puzzles.  I guess we could've forced the issue but we weren't running late and I knew it would make for a happier trip to the school so we let her finish it first.

[emmaegbert]

Physmom you've gotten good advice so far and I agree with it. If she's happy and interested in the classroom "work" I'd suggest a wait-and-see approach for a bit. 

But I've also been thinking about your post and wanted to just tell you our experience with DS- who didn't go to Montessori but first a play-based little school a few mornings a week and then (as you know) Waldorf kindy for 2 years. What I noticed was that school was very stimulating and interesting to him. He didn't get bored even though sometimes the materials (esp at the first school) seemed "easy" for him. He was in mixed-age settings all along so he had a wide range of peers because he is physically large and was very verbal, he got along fine with kids who were older, but also enjoyed his same-age peers. He also didn't do puzzles and look at books much at school (well they don't even have those at Waldorf, but at the school he went to from 2- 3 1/2). He was very into that at home and just pursued other things at school- more social, more sensory, etc.

I just learned to appreciate that school and home are very different. Your daughter may not even engage with some of those things at school that she loves at home. For example, my son loved cooking at home, but rarely participated in the cooking at his waldorf school... and they do it daily, make their own delicious food (which he ate plenty of). I don't know why not. I decided not to worry about it as long as he was happy and stimulated. The thing about having a kid who is so obviously smart is that its not like you have to worry that she's needing remediation, ykwim? If SHE is happy, and isn't doing puzzles (for whatever reason), no big deal. She can do plenty of puzzles at home. And its okay- she doesn't have prove to anyone what she is capable of. The teachers will get to know her and they may see strengths and abilities in her that you normally don't at home (for example DS is apparently very cooperative and even-tempered at school, haha, doesn't quite sound like our kid but hey).

Now- if they are vastly underestimating her ability, not "allowing" her to use things that are at her level, etc, well that seems like it would be a problem. Or if she is bored or frustrated (doesn't sound like she is). But as I understand M schools and philosophy, it should involve a lot of careful observation of the child and trusting the child to choose the work they need to do. (even if it seems repetitive to adults) and seems like it would be very flexible for a kid who is advanced. Also the mixed-age grouping can help with that- a wider range of abilities and expectations in general.

[crunchy_mommy]

Well DS isn't in school and I only have a rough understanding of Montessori... so take my 'advice' with a grain of salt!!

I guess how I'd look at this is, maybe it will give her the opportunity to pursue other interests. I know my DS is ALL ABOUT BOOKS... it's all he would do all day, if I would let him. But we go to tons of places where there are no books -- and I think this is awesome, because it kind of gently forces him to try to find something else interesting to do. Obviously he has a million books at home anyway, so it's not like he still won't have time to read. But when we go places like the library or the children's museum, which both have lots of books, he spends very little time doing anything else, playing with other toys, etc. because all he wants to do is read. So he doesn't get much chance to practice gross motor skills, socializing, etc.... KWIM?

So I would almost think it's a good thing that your DD is bored by the books & puzzles at school -- as long as she's (eventually) finding other fun things to do, and getting her fill of puzzles & books at home. Of course, if she's just bored and moody all day, then that's not good, but maybe after a couple weeks she will discover that she really loves blocks or drawing, once she's given them a chance???

[physmom]

Originally Posted by emmaegbert 

I just learned to appreciate that school and home are very different. Your daughter may not even engage with some of those things at school that she loves at home. For example, my son loved cooking at home, but rarely participated in the cooking at his waldorf school... and they do it daily, make their own delicious food (which he ate plenty of). I don't know why not. I decided not to worry about it as long as he was happy and stimulated. The thing about having a kid who is so obviously smart is that its not like you have to worry that she's needing remediation, ykwim? If SHE is happy, and isn't doing puzzles (for whatever reason), no big deal. She can do plenty of puzzles at home. And its okay- she doesn't have prove to anyone what she is capable of. The teachers will get to know her and they may see strengths and abilities in her that you normally don't at home (for example DS is apparently very cooperative and even-tempered at school, haha, doesn't quite sound like our kid but hey).

Now- if they are vastly underestimating her ability, not "allowing" her to use things that are at her level, etc, well that seems like it would be a problem. Or if she is bored or frustrated (doesn't sound like she is). But as I understand M schools and philosophy, it should involve a lot of careful observation of the child and trusting the child to choose the work they need to do. (even if it seems repetitive to adults) and seems like it would be very flexible for a kid who is advanced. Also the mixed-age grouping can help with that- a wider range of abilities and expectations in general.

Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy 

So I would almost think it's a good thing that your DD is bored by the books & puzzles at school -- as long as she's (eventually) finding other fun things to do, and getting her fill of puzzles & books at home. Of course, if she's just bored and moody all day, then that's not good, but maybe after a couple weeks she will discover that she really loves blocks or drawing, once she's given them a chance???

Thank you both for the reassurance and your perspectives.  We're so new to the whole (pre-)school thing and she's my first so it's pretty natural for me to have a hard time letting go.  I think you both make a great point in that this might actually be a good opportunity for her to get to do new things and find new interests besides books puzzles.  I have to admit that I sometimes steal some of her favorite school activities for home too (she really loves pouring water so if I need a few minutes I put her on the balcony with water in some measuring cups and let her at it!). 

She definitely seems very happy and I think a bit part of that is the social aspect.  She's been going nuts lately being stuck at home so much and she's really a very social kid.  Over the weekend she was talking about all her new friends non-stop.  We've started teaching her how to swim too and she kept asking if we could invite her friends over to swim! 

[physmom]

Ok, so now that DD's been going there some weeks we've run into problems.  I'm not exactly sure what they are stemming from, though.  She seems to have gotten into some min-war with this boy there.  Over the weekend she was talking about him non-stop, complaining that he was really mad at her etc.  I told DH to ask the school what was going on but he forgot.  Well, that Monday she came home with two scratches around her eyes!  I get that kids get in fights at school when they are that age but the scratches were really close to her eyes and I would expect the school to explain what happened but they didn't say anything when I picked her up that day (and I didn't notice until we were on the bus taking her home already).  So DH talked to them the next day and it seems her and this boy were fighting over a toy and the scratched her (I *think* she was trying to take it away from him). 

Since then DD's been talking about this boy non-stop, complaining that he's really mad at her etc.  Yesterday when I picked her up from school the director came over to talk to me and said there had been another incident and DD has pushed the kid and that it's because she's stronger than the other kids there?  DD is definitely really strong for her age but she's clearly probably one of the younger kids in the group.  They have a parent-teach conference coming up so we're going to try talking to them more then.   DH also said at drop-off today that DD was really upset and didn't want to go back to school at all.  She seems to love her teacher (and talks about her often and even says she misses her teacher) but he's worried that she's not bonding at all to the other kids in the group.  She never mentions any friends from her classroom (well, except this boy that she's been fighting with) and when she speaks about her friends in either her friends in the US or kids that she's met with me that live in our apt complex. 

DH thinks it's a language issue and also that she might be bored in the classroom.  He gets to see her more in the classroom and interacting with the kids than I do (I do pick-ups and there you just wait outside for the child whereas he does drop-offs and then you actually take your kid inside and can talk to the teacher a bit).  DD really doesn't seem to be picking up on the local language here at all.  I know she can understand it well but she just never, ever speaks it.  She's very social and will chat up anybody who even looks at her on the bus back home but it's always in English.  We're both sort wondering how her languages skills are affecting her school situation and hopefully at the parent-teacher conference we can get her teacher's perspective on it too. 

I will say that the few times I did do drop-offs she seemed to have befriended some of the older kids that aren't in her class.  Many times when she entered the campus they'd stop to talk to her and definitely knew her.  But I just never got that same impression from the kids in her age group.  Then again it might be that the older kids know some English (they start English there at age 3) so they can actually understand what she's saying to them...

[carmel23]

I don't know how much of it is the school, specifically, and how much of it is just getting used to  a new country, new language, etc.  I don't think that it is that uncommon for children under 4 to not have strong bonds with their peers and often are attracted to bigger kids because they have an example to follow, etc. (especially an only child who is used to interacting with bigger people, adults, etc.)

I wouldn't pressure her to form bonds with her agemates, that will come as she become more comfortable with the language, etc. When they have recess is it only with the younger children or is it mixed ages? 

Usually kids have physical confrontations when they don't feel confident communicating verbally.  I would give it time. She's been though a lot of change--that could take months to adjust to, yk? I don't know if I would have made friends in such a short period of time, so I dn't know if a child necessarily could/would either. Some kids do, but other kids it takes awhile. 

How long will it be until she is in the 3-6 class?  I think it is difficult for kids to be on the older side but new, yk.  When she moves up though she will be a younger child with older kids, and new, so the expectations will be different.

[ollyoxenfree]

Hmm. I see two issues, although they are related. 

The first is a newcomer breaking into an already "gelled" social group. It can be very difficult, even without language barriers. Also at 2 years, they are probably still engaging in a lot of parallel play, rather than directly playing with each other, so that might have an impact. I'm wondering how the directress helped her with joining the class after it had been in session for awhile. It might help if a couple of the other students were assigned as her "buddies" to show her around, have snack with her, and that sort of thing.  

The second is the problem with this boy. I'm wondering how the directress has been dealing with it. Is she supervising them a little more closely, intervening early, re-directing them if necessary? It sounds like this might be an issue that you should raise now, rather than waiting for the conference.  

The language issue may be contributing to the physical interactions. If the children are unable to communicate effectively with words, they may be resorting to pushing or prodding instead. It's probably happening on both sides. It might help if your dd could be coached with a few key phrases in the new language, as well as the other children learn a couple of phrases in English - to make her feel a little more welcome, as well as dealing with conflict. If you don't KNOW the words, it's hard to "use words, not fists" to manage a conflict. 

Before your conference, I'd create an agenda of topics that you want to discuss: the academic challenges (books and puzzles) etc., language, social issues (with subtopics - joining the class, her interactions with the boy) and anything else important. 

[Tigerle]

I do not quite understand how old the other kids in your DD's classroom are? if she is almost 2.5 but not in the 3-6 classroom it sounds like most kids ought to be her age or younger, what makes you so sure (apart from the height of those kids) that a lot of the the kids might be older than her?

Frankly, if you sort of peel away what's special about her situation (a child with high separation anxiety starting school, new to Montessori, in a new country and a second language) it sounds like what a lot of parents with very verbal toddlers have experienced: they just don't deal well with their not so verbal agemates and would be much better off in the 3-6 classroom. I did not move up DS when he was 2.5 and I had the chance, and have regretted waiting until he was 2y10m, because the 3-6 classroom worked so much better immediately (edited to clarify that neither classroom was Montessori, but play based daycare/preschool).

I would not put any stock into typical toddler stuff being more at her level because she is still learning Portuguese. It's not her level. And it sounds like she has no chance to learn Portuguese at a level that makes sense to her. She would not miss out on anything that she still has to learn - the 3-6 classroom will have lots of sensory and fine motor experiences!

I'd look into the "grade skip", as it were.

[physmom]

Originally Posted by carmel23 

I wouldn't pressure her to form bonds with her agemates, that will come as she become more comfortable with the language, etc. When they have recess is it only with the younger children or is it mixed ages?

Originally Posted by Tigerle 

I do not quite understand how old the other kids in your DD's classroom are? if she is almost 2.5 but not in the 3-6 classroom it sounds like most kids ought to be her age or younger, what makes you so sure (apart from the height of those kids) that a lot of the the kids might be older than her?

Just to explain.  Yes, recess has kids of all ages. Recess happens both at some set times but they will also sometimes take kids outside if they appear to need it at that time so they are able to meet kids of all ages there.  Also the school's campus is set up in such a way that each age group has their own classroom but they have a lot of meeting areas (there's a library, a reading spot with lots of books, the area where they have live animals, garden etc) so age mixing there happens often throughout the day.  I know the kids she was talking to were older because I recognized the kids in her classroom (I spent two days with her in there when she started) and these kids were quite a bit bigger (maybe somewhere between 5-7, I'm horrible about guessing ages!) and were in the reading spot that we pass when we walk in or pick her up. 

Originally Posted by carmel23 

How long will it be until she is in the 3-6 class?  I think it is difficult for kids to be on the older side but new, yk.  When she moves up though she will be a younger child with older kids, and new, so the expectations will be different.

She's still a young 2.  She won't turn 3 until next Jan so it wouldn't be until the next school year that she'd move up in age.  Most of the kids in her current class look to be closer to 3.  DD is tall for her height in the US (95%) and here that makes her a giant but all but 2 kids in her class are taller than her and some by quite a bit. 

Originally Posted by carmel23 

Usually kids have physical confrontations when they don't feel confident communicating verbally.  I would give it time. She's been though a lot of change--that could take months to adjust to, yk? I don't know if I would have made friends in such a short period of time, so I dn't know if a child necessarily could/would either. Some kids do, but other kids it takes awhile.

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

The language issue may be contributing to the physical interactions. If the children are unable to communicate effectively with words, they may be resorting to pushing or prodding instead. It's probably happening on both sides. It might help if your dd could be coached with a few key phrases in the new language, as well as the other children learn a couple of phrases in English - to make her feel a little more welcome, as well as dealing with conflict. If you don't KNOW the words, it's hard to "use words, not fists" to manage a conflict.

That's a good point and I didn't think about it much.  It's funny, though, because DD normally makes friends very quickly.  Around our apt building there's a lot of kids (we have a playground) and she's already started referring to a few of them as her friends.  One girl in particular after just playing with her twice she'll even ask for her on occasion. However, none of them speak English... 

I like the idea of teaching her a few phrases.  I talked to DH about it some today and he agrees and plans to do so tomorrow.  She's funny, though, she actually speaks very properly when she chooses to speak in Portuguese she just very rarely chooses to speak in it, though...

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

Hmm. I see two issues, although they are related. 

The first is a newcomer breaking into an already "gelled" social group. It can be very difficult, even without language barriers. Also at 2 years, they are probably still engaging in a lot of parallel play, rather than directly playing with each other, so that might have an impact. I'm wondering how the directress helped her with joining the class after it had been in session for awhile. It might help if a couple of the other students were assigned as her "buddies" to show her around, have snack with her, and that sort of thing.  

The second is the problem with this boy. I'm wondering how the directress has been dealing with it. Is she supervising them a little more closely, intervening early, re-directing them if necessary? It sounds like this might be an issue that you should raise now, rather than waiting for the conference. 

Before your conference, I'd create an agenda of topics that you want to discuss: the academic challenges (books and puzzles) etc., language, social issues (with subtopics - joining the class, her interactions with the boy) and anything else important. 

That's a great point about entering a gelled group.  They did have an adaption period for her where DH and I stay in the room with her for a few days.  The kids seemed very friendly and were trying to talk to her (normally she'd respond in English) and at first she seemed like she was playing with them quite a bit.  I wonder if some of the newness has worn off and that's what we're experiencing now? 

So it turns out (and this is due to my own confusion with the language here ) that the latest incident where DD got scratched was with a girl so this happened with two separate kids (but isn't that really strange that she got scratched by both of her eyes by two separate kids in the same week?).  DH talked to the teacher and the teacher said it's just the normal toddlers not wanting to share thing.  I definitely get kids get in fights at this age but I'm concerned because of how close to her eyes all these scratches were. 

Add to that that she's been chewing on everything in sight lately (and she's done teething) and I didn't realize it today but the chewing started with her starting preschool.  I'm not sure what exactly her teacher is doing about the whole sharing thing, I'll have DH ask on Monday. 

Oh, and good idea about making an agenda.  We'll definitely do that. 
 

Originally Posted by Tigerle 

Frankly, if you sort of peel away what's special about her situation (a child with high separation anxiety starting school, new to Montessori, in a new country and a second language) it sounds like what a lot of parents with very verbal toddlers have experienced: they just don't deal well with their not so verbal agemates and would be much better off in the 3-6 classroom. I did not move up DS when he was 2.5 and I had the chance, and have regretted waiting until he was 2y10m, because the 3-6 classroom worked so much better immediately (edited to clarify that neither classroom was Montessori, but play based daycare/preschool).

I would not put any stock into typical toddler stuff being more at her level because she is still learning Portuguese. It's not her level. And it sounds like she has no chance to learn Portuguese at a level that makes sense to her. She would not miss out on anything that she still has to learn - the 3-6 classroom will have lots of sensory and fine motor experiences!

I'd look into the "grade skip", as it were.

Thanks, I think we'll talk more about the "grade skip" when we go to the conference and see what they say.  That's a good point about her current classroom not necessarily helping with Portuguese... I guess there are two concerns I still have, though: 1.) she really does seem to enjoy some of the activities (pouring, painting, playdough) 2.) she's still a toddler in some sense, at school she takes naps (but not on the weekends at home) and still needs to be reminded to go to the bathroom (even though she's pretty much potty trained).
 

[Tigerle]

Originally Posted by physmom 

Just to explain.  Yes, recess has kids of all ages. Recess happens both at some set times but they will also sometimes take kids outside if they appear to need it at that time so they are able to meet kids of all ages there.  Also the school's campus is set up in such a way that each age group has their own classroom but they have a lot of meeting areas (there's a library, a reading spot with lots of books, the area where they have live animals, garden etc) so age mixing there happens often throughout the day.  I know the kids she was talking to were older because I recognized the kids in her classroom (I spent two days with her in there when she started) and these kids were quite a bit bigger (maybe somewhere between 5-7, I'm horrible about guessing ages!) and were in the reading spot that we pass when we walk in or pick her up. 

Add to that that she's been chewing on everything in sight lately (and she's done teething) and I didn't realize it today but the chewing started with her starting preschool.  I'm not sure what exactly her teacher is doing about the whole sharing thing, I'll have DH ask on Monday. 

Thanks, I think we'll talk more about the "grade skip" when we go to the conference and see what they say.  That's a good point about her current classroom not necessarily helping with Portuguese... I guess there are two concerns I still have, though: 1.) she really does seem to enjoy some of the activities (pouring, painting, playdough) 2.) she's still a toddler in some sense, at school she takes naps (but not on the weekends at home) and still needs to be reminded to go to the bathroom (even though she's pretty much potty trained).
 

What a great campus! I am quite jealous. I am sure all this age mixing will be very beneficial for your daughter.

DS does the chewing thing when he is under great sensory stress (usually after too much social interaction with peers) It's how we can tell it's time to go, wherever we are, and do something quiet, preferably outdoors, and with a sensory component -  or go to bed!. Designated chew toys for bedtime and occasionally wearing a chewing necklace have helped, too.

Would she not be able to take a nap when in the 3-6 classroom? I'd be very surprised if there weren't a lot of typical 3yo in there who still need naps, help with remembering to go potty, and pour and paint all day.

[carmel23]

Its been our experience at Montessori schools that as soon as the kids don't really need to be reminded about the bathroom, they move up to 3-6. And taking turns with works is a big thing, too.  They have to be very clear about not taking a work that someone else is working on-that would cause chaos in a 3-6 classroom if people took stuff from another child's hands and not off the shelf. 

I would just give her time and time and let her adjust before asking for another change. And if she has a long day you might just be catching her when she is tired--so she might be more negative.  My newly 4 year-old often is a little negative about her day when I first pick her up, but as she rests a little and starts to tell me about her day, it isn't as dour as she first stated. 

It makes sense that she feels more comfortable to make 'friends' when she is with you-- she is still developing attachment to new caregivers, and without that security it can be hard for a 2 year-old to make friends with agemates.

[physmom]

Originally Posted by Tigerle 

What a great campus! I am quite jealous. I am sure all this age mixing will be very beneficial for your daughter.

DS does the chewing thing when he is under great sensory stress (usually after too much social interaction with peers) It's how we can tell it's time to go, wherever we are, and do something quiet, preferably outdoors, and with a sensory component -  or go to bed!. Designated chew toys for bedtime and occasionally wearing a chewing necklace have helped, too.

Would she not be able to take a nap when in the 3-6 classroom? I'd be very surprised if there weren't a lot of typical 3yo in there who still need naps, help with remembering to go potty, and pour and paint all day.

Yep, it's absolutely beautiful and we've really enjoyed all the age mixing that we've seen there.  We really do love the place, I just wish I could figure out exactly what's going on in DD's head.

DD's chewing is just insane.  DH is going nuts about it but he also has a problem with chewing on everything in sight so I think he's worried she's going to have the same problem.  I haven't really noticed the chewing happening at particular times, many times she appears perfectly happy and is happily chewing on her finger or the kitchen counter or her stuff animal or my computer? We actually bought her a chew toy for babies and she likes that but apparently everything else is more interesting to chew on! 

I'm not sure about that in the 3-6 classroom that's definitely something we need to find out still. 

Originally Posted by carmel23 

Its been our experience at Montessori schools that as soon as the kids don't really need to be reminded about the bathroom, they move up to 3-6. And taking turns with works is a big thing, too.  They have to be very clear about not taking a work that someone else is working on-that would cause chaos in a 3-6 classroom if people took stuff from another child's hands and not off the shelf. 

I would just give her time and time and let her adjust before asking for another change. And if she has a long day you might just be catching her when she is tired--so she might be more negative.  My newly 4 year-old often is a little negative about her day when I first pick her up, but as she rests a little and starts to tell me about her day, it isn't as dour as she first stated. 

It makes sense that she feels more comfortable to make 'friends' when she is with you-- she is still developing attachment to new caregivers, and without that security it can be hard for a 2 year-old to make friends with agemates.

Yes, the sharing thing could certainly be an issue too with the older kids and also changing her environment yet again could definitely be stressful too.  One thing that I've been thinking about is if she does end up bonding with some of the older kids in her current class, maybe she could move up at the same time as them?  However, she really does love her teacher right now so there's that too. 

Good point about the negativity right away.  It's always the complaining about other kids that comes out first thing.  After awhile she does seem to settle down and talk about other things she did that day.  Hmm...  you might be on to something about the friends thing too.  MIL has taken her out a few times to see other kids and MIL commented that DD was less than enthused (at least with younger kids).  She did take her to a group at her church with some older kids and DD seemed pretty happy then (but DD is obviously much more comfortable with MIL than her teacher since we lived there for awhile). 

[physmom]

Thanks for following along with our preschool drama. We had our meeting with the school today and it seemed to go really well.  We covered a lot of topics and so I'll just try to go through some of the main ones.

- We thought she was getting naps at school, turns out they thought we didn't want her to take naps and since she never asks for them (she fights sleep like CRAZY and puts up a huge fight whenever it's time to sleep) they were letting her go without naps.  I had actually asked them to give her naps but I know I'm not always the most understood person due to my language skills so I'll chalk that up to being lost in translation.  We discussed with the school about getting her on a sleep schedule and making sure she sleeps between 1-1.5 hours there. We all thought that some of her chewing, scratching etc behavior could very well be due to lack of sleep so this is school's and our #1 priority now.

- We're going to check with a pediatrician on DD's eating too (we still need to find one locally...).  We asked the school if they'd feed her more right before we pick her up (she's always starving and begging for food on the way home).  Well, it turns out she's eating A LOT at school.  Two plates full and will ask for more sometimes at lunch. This is after eating a huge breakfast and asking for even more food before we leave the house in the morning!  It's healthy food but still... Yes, she's at the top of the charts for pretty much everything (but she's definitely not overweight, she's really muscular) but this is really a lot of food, I just want to make sure everything is OK.  We're also planning on switching some things up at breakfast and see if that helps too.  Oh, and we need to make appointments with an allergist too just to be on the safe side.

- Her language skills are an issue and this is the main reason they're not bringing in harder material.  Basically, the school wants her to verbalize more when it comes to math things before they give her new works (so to be able to say sphere, cube, numbers, letters etc in Portuguese).  They also agree that many of her "fights" in school are definitely a language problem because she'll try to talk to other kids first in English and then normally once they don't respond she'll try and take a toy and it escalates from there.  She definitely knows a lot of the appropriate phrases (and they did say she's getting better about using them) but it's still not consistently enough.  What there suggestion was is that we do more math things at home with her in English and they'll try to work with her on the vocabulary at school.  Hopefully, once her language skills pick up than things like arguments with friends will magically get better.

- They did say that she goes through works pretty quickly and doesn't spend much time on them but she loves to paint and pour water and will ask to do that forever.  They said that she'll also paint objects and tell them what they are (in English, of course!).  So at least there are somethings that she seems to enjoy.  They said she also loves playing outdoors and actually does get along really well with the other kid (she seems to have bonded with a little girl there who's almost 3 and has actually been mentioning her name at home for the last couple of days). 

Unfortunately, we're going to have to pull her out of the school for a couple of months anyways (starting at the first of next month) while I wait for my new job to start (there's just no way we can afford the school just on DH's income).  But we talked about some strategies on how best to maintain a Montessori-esque environment at home so she'll be able to transition back in easily.  DH and I also plan on signing her up for some either music or sports classes during that time just so she gets to see some kids on a regular basis so she can work on both Portuguese and sharing at the same time. 

The teachers seem to like DD a lot but basically implied that she is quite a handful (not something that is remotely surprising to us! ).  Basically, what we got out of this is we're going to try and make some changes (better sleep routine, figure out this food thing), let the school work on stuff like sharing/language skills and then at home we're going to try and supplement with more math/letters/words etc.  She definitely wants to do more math stuff and really loves it when I show her anything but we don't have any $$ at the moment and DH and I have been so insanely busy with work and the move that we haven't done nearly as much as we would've liked.  We decided to sit down tonight and start thinking up some activities that she might like and introduce them to her to see what she thinks.  Definitely not pressure her into anything but I was thinking about simple things.  For instance, I bought some marbles and maybe let her work on addition/subtraction with them.  I've asked her recently if you have 3 apples and ate one how many you'd have and she announced proudly "one.. two apples!" so I think she might like to try something out that she could physically manipulate?  DH also thought about doing some geometry games (cutting out triangles that can fit inside a bigger triangle or square).  We'll see how it goes.

Anyways, thanks everyone who was following along!

[sapphire_chan]

During the hiatus in particular, but also whenever she's playing with her apartment-friends, use that as an opportunity to model asking for a turn in Portuguese.

Mind you, the asking is the easy part, the hard part is helping the toddler work through to the point of being able to accept "no" as an answer. =D

[Rose-Roget]

Originally Posted by physmom 

- Her language skills are an issue and this is the main reason they're not bringing in harder material.  Basically, the school wants her to verbalize more when it comes to math things before they give her new works (so to be able to say sphere, cube, numbers, letters etc in Portuguese).  They also agree that many of her "fights" in school are definitely a language problem because she'll try to talk to other kids first in English and then normally once they don't respond she'll try and take a toy and it escalates from there.  She definitely knows a lot of the appropriate phrases (and they did say she's getting better about using them) but it's still not consistently enough.  What there suggestion was is that we do more math things at home with her in English and they'll try to work with her on the vocabulary at school.  Hopefully, once her language skills pick up than things like arguments with friends will magically get better.

- They did say that she goes through works pretty quickly and doesn't spend much time on them but she loves to paint and pour water and will ask to do that forever.  They said that she'll also paint objects and tell them what they are (in English, of course!).  So at least there are somethings that she seems to enjoy.  They said she also loves playing outdoors and actually does get along really well with the other kid (she seems to have bonded with a little girl there who's almost 3 and has actually been mentioning her name at home for the last couple of days). 

It's too bad she'll have to miss for a couple of months.  Maybe some language growth will happen during that time.  I'm thinking about these areas and wondering how the school is responding to them.  Two year olds are not great communicators, in general.  Your dd is clearly experiencing a high amount of frustration because she is used to being able to clearly express herself.  If the school recognizes this, then I hope they are providing her the words for next time - an attuned teacher would even look for some opportunities before the conflict to help her practice and give her successful communication attempts. 

Also, if she is demonstrating understanding of concepts, and the vocabulary is being modeled to her sufficiently, I don't fully get why she is not allowed to progress in certain areas.  Montessori math is very hands on - you do not need expressive language skills to learn it, and receptively (which it sounds like she's okay at), only general vocabulary understanding and the ability to learn words through context and repetition.  Montessori doesn't teach using lots of words - demonstrations are short and very visual. 

Again, when she returns to school and she uses English words, I'd emphasize to the teachers how important it is that they model the Portuguese word back to her (a few times) and then expand the phrase in Portuguese.  Since Montessori is so visual and not really "language based learning" it may not be natural for the teachers, BUT the fact that the expressive language barrier has been identified as problematic for her, breaking this barrier will save her and them a lot of grief longterm.

[physmom]

DD got in a nap yesterday at school and at pick-up it was like night and day.  I also picked up some marbles for her and a small chalk board and last night we played with the marbles (counted them, separated them into different cups, and did some simple subtraction) she LOVED that and had them out first them in the morning and was counting them again.  We also used the chalk board and she'd ask me to write words and we'd sound them out and then draw the corresponding picture.  Again she was in heaven and kept asking me to draw new things.  So I'm hoping this will help a bit on the home front.

However, this morning we had one of the biggest tantrums EVER when she had to leave for school.  Her tantrums are bad, really, really bad.  I'm honestly scared the neighbors are going to call the police on us because she's extremely loud and cries most of the way to school (well, except the bus ride, she LOVES the bus ride!).  I don't think this is necessarily school related, though, because she did the same in her brief 2 months at daycare last year and with her part-time babysitter who I know she loved (and still asks about and says she misses her).  However, it's soooo draining.  DH is much better at ignoring it and just getting her ready (good thing he's the one who normally does drop-offs!) but it just wipes out all of my energy.
 

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan 

During the hiatus in particular, but also whenever she's playing with her apartment-friends, use that as an opportunity to model asking for a turn in Portuguese.

Mind you, the asking is the easy part, the hard part is helping the toddler work through to the point of being able to accept "no" as an answer. =D

Definitely! This is one reason we're really planning on signing her up for either music or sport groups.  Somehow I've managed to find all the mom's in my apt building or are foreigners and tend to befriend them so I think I needed to be pushed out of my comfort zone too and maybe if my Portuguese improves hers will too.  Now the sharing, I don't know!  It's hard in our apt complex because there's a lot of space so if kids don't want to share they just go somewhere else.  We also have a group of older kids that hang out together and are very cliquish and model some pretty poor behavior (make fun of the younger kids, won't let them play, get made if they touch their stuff) so I'm thinking it would probably be better to try some of the classes?

Originally Posted by Rose-Roget 

It's too bad she'll have to miss for a couple of months.  Maybe some language growth will happen during that time.  I'm thinking about these areas and wondering how the school is responding to them.  Two year olds are not great communicators, in general.  Your dd is clearly experiencing a high amount of frustration because she is used to being able to clearly express herself.  If the school recognizes this, then I hope they are providing her the words for next time - an attuned teacher would even look for some opportunities before the conflict to help her practice and give her successful communication attempts. 

Also, if she is demonstrating understanding of concepts, and the vocabulary is being modeled to her sufficiently, I don't fully get why she is not allowed to progress in certain areas.  Montessori math is very hands on - you do not need expressive language skills to learn it, and receptively (which it sounds like she's okay at), only general vocabulary understanding and the ability to learn words through context and repetition.  Montessori doesn't teach using lots of words - demonstrations are short and very visual. 

Again, when she returns to school and she uses English words, I'd emphasize to the teachers how important it is that they model the Portuguese word back to her (a few times) and then expand the phrase in Portuguese.  Since Montessori is so visual and not really "language based learning" it may not be natural for the teachers, BUT the fact that the expressive language barrier has been identified as problematic for her, breaking this barrier will save her and them a lot of grief longterm.

We really hate that we have to pull her out.  We've crunched the numbers a few times and there's just no way.  The problem is that we're still paying some of the bills from our move so we have significantly less money now than we'd normally have if we were just living off of DH's income.  

See, I definitely get what you're saying and that was one BIG reason that I wanted her to go to Montessori when we moved because I knew this would be a problem.  I'm actually of ways to try and make some Montessori math materials for home to let her play with them.  I got the impression that they were talking about her fine motor skills too, though?  DD's sort of selective with her fine motor skills.  In some areas she's ahead (puzzles, drawing) but I think that's almost just shear will-power because this is the same kid that can't turn the knob of a door! 

I do get the impression that the teachers really are modeling the correct words for her and are definitely putting a lot of effort into that.  DH and myself will try and point out words to her in Portuguese that can be useful and we'll make her repeat them.  Also on the bus rides to/from school she loves pointing at signs and sounding out the words so there's at least more interest in the local vocabulary.  My hope is that maybe in these months where she's at home with me her language skills will pick up more.  DH is trying to convince the in-laws to come visit, which would certainly help.  Plus when DD starts again she'll be 2.5 so hopefully there will be less resistance to moving her up with the materials. 

[emmaegbert]

sorry its been a hard transition. and that the $$ isn't working out (I know the feeling). I hope when she returns things are better- she'll be older, her language skills will be improved, etc.
 

Originally Posted by physmom 

DD got in a nap yesterday at school and at pick-up it was like night and day. 

(...)

Definitely! This is one reason we're really planning on signing her up for either music or sport groups.  Somehow I've managed to find all the mom's in my apt building or are foreigners and tend to befriend them so I think I needed to be pushed out of my comfort zone too and maybe if my Portuguese improves hers will too.  Now the sharing, I don't know!  It's hard in our apt complex because there's a lot of space so if kids don't want to share they just go somewhere else.  We also have a group of older kids that hang out together and are very cliquish and model some pretty poor behavior (make fun of the younger kids, won't let them play, get made if they touch their stuff) so I'm thinking it would probably be better to try some of the classes?

Just a thought. if she is having a hard time with school/daycare and a hard time with sharing and same-age peers, maybe just back off during your "hiatus" and then see if she's in a better place for it when she returns to school? I used to feel w/ DS like he needed to be pushed to learn this stuff, and in retrospect I think when he was ready, it wasn't a struggle any more. She's still *very* young for anything formal like music or sports (IMO). She might really do better with friends who are at least a year older or younger... I have noticed that with both of my kids, and that there was ONE friend who DS was very close with as a toddler, but other than that, he didn't really start "playing" with other kids independently until age 3.

And, we also had a situation with a large common play space at our old apt complex. Kids would just leave if they don't like what is going on. This can actually be pretty good natural consequences... b/c kids generally do want playmates. They do learn not to piss the other kids off. But it doesn't sound too great having older kids making fun of the youngers. Can you supervise a little more closely? Help "correct" the olders and/or model more positive behavior? You didn't mention their ages, but I bet many of them are still very young too and need the opportunity to be their best selves, ykwim?

GL