Trying to avoid in-home playdates -- what to do?

[swd12422]

My BFF's son is 6 months younger than my DS, who is 3. The two do NOT play well together. DS has always been great at sharing and lately we have really been trying to positively reinforce "nice manners," at the dinner table and with friends. He has a couple of friends (including BFF's son) who are more spirited less inclined to follow directions and do not like to share.

We have had issues with toys in the past, resulting in DS crying and being super upset. He just doesn't understand. He is also just starting that phase where he "needs" to play with whatever the other kid just picked up. It doesn't matter whose toys they are. I have been talking to DS about how to handle that (no grabbing, ask for a turn) and he can tell me what to do in a situation like that. But in the heat of the moment, it doesn't go so well. At least not with this particular friend. At school, the teachers swear he's great at sharing and using his words, but I'm not seeing it with this friend. (He also does well with other non-school friends, it's just this one.)

I have unilaterally decided that playdates with this friend are better at the park, where there is nothing proprietary. The boy's mom is aware of her son's personality and even tried to head it off by bringing his bike to our house for the last playdate, so the boys wouldn't fight over DS's bike. It didn't work -- they both fought over the other boy's bike! I had to tell my crying son at least 20 times (no exaggeration) that if his friend didn't want to share, that was his choice, and DS should choose something else to play with. DS just couldn't get it, and was upset the whole time. The other boy's parents were not there (family emergency) so I was the sole parent there. My concern is that Easter is coming, and there may be more need for emergency child care, both of which mean playdates at one house or the other.

How do I help DS with this? I don't want to have to leave in the middle of Easter dinner b/c the kids aren't being nice to each other. I finally lost it yesterday, put them both in timeout, and told them that if they can't play nicely together, they won't be allowed to play at all. I'm sure neither one got it, and even if they did, BFF's son certainly wouldn't believe me b/c he doesn't believe that any rules apply to him. (He's about to turn 3, so age is a factor in that, but his parents also don't really follow through when they ask him to do something, so he doesn't think they really mean it when they say things like, pick up your toys or share your bike....

[madskye]

I have a good friend, and our dd's love each other, but they play MUCH more nicely if we're at a park.  If we're at one house or another we find it's best if we plan an activity like making cookies or cupcakes.  That's more a distraction so that when the freeplay starts to go downhill we have a plan B.  Not sharing and not playing "nice" is age appropriate and it happens and they'll both learn and grow out of it.  That's why I wouldn't stress about the situation at Easter.  I would aim to have your playdates at the park.  I would aim to have other more supervised activities to offer at home when you do have to be there.  I would talk to your friend and let her know that you'll handle things with time outs and discussions if they're not playing nicely together.  And I'd accept that there is a certain amount of this kind of behavior that kids just need to learn and grow through.

That said, if you felt that your bff's child was really a bad seed, and you were extremely concerned over the way he treats your son, and you didn't think the mom was addressing it, I'd have different advice.  But what you wrote about sounds pretty common.  Not fun to deal with, but oh too common!

I also, even if your friend is in a very tough situation, don't think it's unreasonable to let her know now that you have family plans on Easter and won't be able to help that day.

[swd12422]

Well, we do all the holidays together so I was hoping that since it's a month away, we'll have time to breathe. Unfortunately, something really bad came up last week, and she needed me to watch the kids last-minute. I couldn't say no, she's like family and she had no one else to help (rest of family that usually helps her was involved in the emergency). So in the meantime, I'm trying to just do park dates or other outings instead, and if the bad behavior continues at Easter we'll just have to leave. But for any more emergency type stuff that may happen in the next few weeks, I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm not meeting DS's needs by continuing to expose him to these situations where he has to share, but his friend apparently doesn't, even though his mom *says* he does. And when she's not there, what do I do? Force him to share his stuff? I'd never do that to my own kid. I thought about putting the bike away, as that's what I'd do if they were siblings or if it were DS's bike. But it's not mine to do that with. Or is it, if it's my house? We talked about sharing all our toys when friends come, and if there's anything special that he doesn't want to share, we'll put it away til the play date is over. His friend apparently doesn't have that rule yet, and I'm not so sure he would understand anyway, since he's still a few months away from 3. It IS age-appropriate, but still not nice, and very upsetting for DS.

[Peony]

I've had to step back from some good friends in the past because our children were at an age or a stage where they didn't play well together. It doesn't always mean that it will always be that way, 6 months or so, things can be completely different but some times, as much as I like the parents or children, our children may not share the same views. And there are just some friends that have a love/hate relationship, it is either really good or really bad, no middle ground. Both my girls have friends like that, then there are others where is is always good. I would just tell the mom that obviously the boys do not get alone when they are not on neutral ground, time together needs to be spent elsewhere besides the houses, and possibly limited for a bit to see if this phase will pass. 

[pianojazzgirl]

Originally Posted by swd12422 

I thought about putting the bike away, as that's what I'd do if they were siblings or if it were DS's bike. But it's not mine to do that with. Or is it, if it's my house?

I'd say yes, if you are *the* adult in charge, and it is your house, then certainly you should feel free to put fought-over toys/stuff away (even the friend's ds's things).  I wouldn't hesitate to do the same in that situation.  If you are babysitting then feel free to use "our house, our rules" when it comes to sharing/taking turns.

Re. the sharing dilemma... I'd probably put away as many toys as possible before playdates.  I'd offer toys of which I had doubles.  I'd try to have activities planned in case free playing wasn't working out  (cookie baking - like a pp mentioned, playdough, painting, etc - whatever age-appropriate things you can come up with).

As opposed to timeout, another way you could diffuse the situation would be to set them each up with their own activity, separate from the other.  For example it could be that they each get an activity book and some crayons - one at the kitchen table, one at the coffee table in the living room.

Another thought is that maybe you'd like to take out some books on kid's games from the library (or look online), and get them involved in playing games with you, as opposed to playing with toys.  I'm thinking things like hide and seek, red light green light, or whatever else works for their ages and temperaments.  I remember coming across a book about cooperative games a while back (I forget the title but I'm sure you could google to find it or similar) that might work well for them if either has trouble with not winning.

[crunchy_mommy]

Would they be interested in a more structured activity, something that doesn't involve just playing with toys? Maybe a craft or dancing to music or listening to you read stories or animal yoga???

I also think this is a great learning experience both for you guys and your friends... and important for your DS to understand that different people have different rules (but he still has to play by YOUR rules even if the other kid doesn't). That's something I'm working on with DS right now -- for ex., he's not allowed to play with toys on the shelves in a store, although other kids often are. He is allowed to nurse on demand during the day, but his good friend isn't. It's hard when everyone has different rules, but it's an important lesson IMO...

But, when the friend is in your house & in your care, I would think he needs to abide by your rules... I mean, I would definitely take your friend's rules into account & not go against her wishes, but it sounds like she wants her DS to share, just isn't sure how to get him to... so I would go ahead and tell him that you are taking turns etc.

[swd12422]

I did try the "taking turns" thing, and we have two bikes of our own, so it was THREE bikes for two kids to share. It still didn't work. The friend just kept saying, "No, MY bike!" and since DS knew they were supposed to be sharing, he decided to just push the other child off and take the bike by force. Of course, THAT didn't go over well, but DS didn't understand b/c the last time they "played" together, he got hit every time he had something his friend didn't want him to have. So I guess he figured that's how it works...

We don't do timeout with DS -- when things get really out of hand like they did with this play date, I took him to his room to cool off, but that really didn't work. The other boy gets timeouts (or at least the mom says he does) so that's what I did for him. Sadly, the only thing that could get their attention was raising my voice, and since I'm a recovering yeller, I didn't like that at all. The boy looked like he was ready to cry when I put on my stern mommy voice. I don't think he's ever been spoken to like that. I'm not sure a rule has EVER been enforced verbally with him -- if it's a struggle with the shopping cart or stroller or something, he just gets carried out, and he struggles and kicks and bites. Obviously, I'm not going to manhandle him, and I prefer not to yell, and I'm not sure if timeouts are really effective for him, but the tension with the two of them is unbearable. DS didn't sleep at all last night, and I think he was still trying to work through all the stress (he said he'd had a bad dream, and then started talking about all the stressful stuff that had gone on).

I like the idea of the games -- I'll have to try that next time, although I'm "old" and couldn't keep that up for 5 hours! Things like separate coloring books may help, but we only have one place to do that, unless we use outside, so maybe we'll try that too. I did notice that the friend came inside and separate himself on his own when things were going downhill, so that's a good sign, but he didn't stay in long, and DS didn't want to be away from him, even though they weren't getting along. I just can't seem to get him to understand that if someone's not sharing or playing nicely, then you don't keep trying, you just go do something else/play with something or someone else for awhile. So as much as I'd love to blame the friend who has had lots of bad behavior in the past and refused to share a toy he brought to our house, it was really DS who made everything worse for himself and for the friend by not giving up trying to share the bike and other toys. Can you teach that to a 3-year-old, or is just time and emotional maturity?

[Lisa1970]

I put a timer on sharing. I will say to them that they each get time with the toy. The person who goes 2nd gets a little more time. Keep it short at their age. Maybe 2 minutes and 3 minutes. Then have them continue to swap back and forth every 3 minutes until one of them gets tired of it. It means staying on it, but I have found it really works in the long run. They have to practice handing over the toy, over and over again, and they each get a small play time before handing it over again. And the time they have to watch the other child with the toy is so short, they learn patience in small increments.

The key is to set the timer. They need to see that it really is just 2 minutes or 3, or whatever time you picked. Pick the time according to their age.

[Lisa1970]

That being said, I have a friend whose child is 5 yrs old and so spoiled and difficult that after all these years (have known her 14 yrs) we do not have the kids together. Even when I had matching toys, her son was a total bully. I let her son pick first and my son waited while her son got his toy. It was a battery operated bubble maker. But as soon as I had my son's going, the other boy grabbed it from my son's hands and refused to give it back while the mother just stood there shrugging. I took it back myself and gave it to my son. But the situation is unworkable. So, we just do not have him over ever or go to his house.

[LynnS6]

Your house = your rules, especially if you're the only parent there.

I think the idea of bringing over something so they wouldn't fight was good, but the choice of item wasn't great in retrospect.

If you  have to have the kids together in the house, then I would put away any toys that are fought over too much. We had many a toy in 'toy time out' when our kids were that age. Just the mere presence of the toy seemed to spark conflict. The first toy time out was about 5 minutes (enough to give everyone time to calm down). After that, it was gone for the day. In fact, I just found one the other day. Apparently, we put it in time out and forgot it. Three years later, the poor toy was still in toy time out. I put it straight in the Goodwill bag, as my kids have outgrown it.)

I'd then think of things that they can do that don't involve sharing toys. Some ideas:

Playdough

Baking

Water play (if it's warm enough, turn on the sprinkler)

Soccer ball (it's really boring to kick it all by yourself)

A tunnel to climb though; build a fort (note that can result in tears if someone breaks it)

Relay races/running laps

Unfortunately, for Easter and other family holidays, you're at an age where you spend a lot more time running interference with the kids than you do hanging out with the grown ups. Just remind yourself that this too shall pass. Dh and I would take turns. At his family's, I shouldered the majority of kid supervision. At mine, he did. But if you give up the idea that you can chat nicely with the grown-ups while the kids play happily at your feet, life will run much smoother.

[luv my 2 sweeties]

Clearly, I would stop having voluntary visits at your houses -- neutral ground only.  But when an emergency situations comes up, well, there is a time and a place for DVDs, and this might be one of them!  Another idea, have your friend leave her ds's car seat (she may want to install it in your car herself) and take the boys to a neutral ground yourself.  I was watching a little girl the age of my youngest ds one time -- they were both 2 -- and it was going just horribly.  All the same stuff you describe, except my ds was the worst instigator because he didn't want the girl to touch *any* of his things.  After trying just about everything, I threw up my hands and said, "Who wants cookies?!"  Then I piled them both in the car and we went for cookies.  Sometimes taking 2 toddlers out is actually easier than staying home with them! 

Best of luck!  I'm sure things will improve with time.  My 3 1/2 y.o. ds and his 3 3/4 y.o. cousin just had their first 100% fight-free playdate last week.  Yay!  (They never got along really badly, but they would always have a few spats -- goes with the territory.)

[4evermom]

I never made ds share though he tended to be willing.  I learned pretty quickly not to suggest he share in front of other kids because they interpreted that as he had to share.  They would then proceed to try to take his toy by force.  Sounds like your ds interpreted things that way, that the other child saying no doesn't count...  Just something to think about.  Maybe think about clearer ways to phrase things so your ds doesn't think he should keep trying and get into a physical squabble over another kid's toy.

When ds was younger, I'd tend to set out toys that played well in a group, something that had lots of similar pieces.  Or a bunch of balls.  Playing with bubbles outside can go well (mix up your own using baby shampoo to avoid the bubbles stinging eyes).

[swd12422]

I think what really surprised me (even more than them fighting for the same bike even though DS has nearly the same one AND another one) is that when DS asks me for something that is DH's territory (like asking me if DH will take him for a bike ride) I say to ask DH. DS's reply *100% of the time* is "if he says no the answer is no, and if he says yes we can go?" Yup! So he gets it. He's been getting that for ages. But for some reason he just didn't process it that way with his friend, even though I repeatedly said, "you have to ask... If he says no, go play with something else or ride your own bike." He just couldn't get it.

We have an extra seat, so I'll have to try an outing next time. Thanks for all the great ideas, please keep them coming! (And I did consider TV too... Shoulda done it...)

[ja mama]

How would you feel about taking turns.  When he says,"It's mine"  You agree, "yes, it's your turn.  When you are done DS, or friend, gets a turn."

  I do not agree with timers at all.  The child doesn't learn to enjot the toy and then be done.   I think if a child wants to play with one toy all day long that's fine.  The other child has access to EVERYTHING else.  When you're done, someone else can have a turn.  If you bring it to our home (unless it's a special lovey for naptime) anyone can have a turn, as soon as you're done.  "May I have a turn?" gets answered "yes, when I'm done."  But that person gets to decide when they are done.  The other person gets to decide what to do in the meantime: wait patiently, choose a similar toy, hop on one foot, whine and cry...   It's so good to start teaching the concept of choosing your own actions not choosing someone else's actions, at this age.  Although it's normal to repeat yourself 20 times.

And it's a positive answer, "Yes it's your turn right now, but when you're done he gets a turn." or "Yes you can have a turn, when he sets it down."  Instead of a negative answer.  "No it's mine."  "No, you don't get a turn."  "I'm playing with it!"

As an adult I also see things as turns.  Even to the point of saying it's my turn in this house.  Someday someone else will own it and have a turn with it.  If I was arbitrarily forced to hand over my things I was still using or enjoying, even to a friend, I wouldn't be happy.  But when I am done, I am ready for someone else to have a turn.

[meemee]

3 is a really hard age for playgroups esp. when one child gets things and the other one doesnt.

dd and her bf (9 days apart) were quite a handful at that age. they had to be closely supervised and we did a lot of park playdates. the red wagon came in real handy. 

the things they enjoyed the most - camping - a tent and flashlight. 

the mandolin - we had a band playing. 

a lot of time was spent in the backyard. camping, kiddie pool, soccer, mazes - physical games. 

we stayed in close supervision - at least one parent. dd would get it but her bf would lose it very often. the close supervision was to make sure we curbed their excitement when it got too much. you could see the hyper coming and that's when we'd stop and do something quiet to bring that craziness down before someone hurt themselves or someone else. we mostly read books. 

snacks with high protein was absolutely essential so that they wouldnt be hungry. or else veggie and fruit had to be given pretty often. 

it is only with one family that we had to stop playdates. because when dd got into the screaming mode her friend was too sensitive to loud noises. when we tried again, dd's hearing was super sensitive and he'd turned into a screamer 

however it is a good idea to lay down your own house rules and help them follow it at the right time as pp said.

oh boy. though it was v. normal to have to cut short the playgroups or have two kids in different rooms recovering from the behaviour. somedays no matter what you tried it was a nightmare right from the beginning. 

those times have really bonded these two kids. dd and her bf are like siblings. and oh yes things really got better as they got older. in fact when we didnt need to supervise we were shocked we didnt need to any thing really. 

[swd12422]

ja mama, the trouble was that the friend would run off to go play with something of DS's, and DS would jump on the bike. As soon as he did, the friend would throw whatever he had in his hand (and yeah, we also have a rule against throwing toys b/c he really THROWS them when angry), and run over to the bike, crying that it was his bike and didn't want DS on it. I explained it was DS's turn and they just fought over it instead. I tried giving DS a turn, then saying he needed to get off and give friend a turn and vice versa. Didn't matter. Both wanted it as soon as one was on it. It was ridiculous. I don't like the idea of timers either, but it seems to be fair in these situations that each gets equal time. But I definitely agree with not forcing sharing, sooooo..... Then what? DS just doesn't get a turn EVER? It's like he loses out b/c the other kid is mean, even though DS shares his toys. Then DS decides not to share his toys, but can't possibly cover them all. So again, he loses. I agree that we need to limit play dates, and I plan to, but I can't avoid them altogether, at least not in the next few months.

[kittynurse]

I'm confused.  Maybe I'm not reading closely enough but my understanding is that your son had a guest over, the guest didn't want your son riding his bike and your son pushed the child off his own bike?  Am I reading that correctly?

Personally, in that situation I would have told my son to ride his own bike.  Especially since he has one almost exactly the same *and* the guest was there because of a family emergency and was probably upset even if he wasn't showing it.

I encourage sharing when my children are having a playdate but guests are given priority because that is how we treat people visiting our home.

[JennaW]

I can sort of relate to your situation, in that I have a 2.5 y/o DD and I watch a 3 y/o little boy 5 days a week.  

I have always sort of felt parents go a little overboard on sharing, yes it is good to learn to share.  But really, is anyone having any fun if a toy is being coveted and each child is getting a 2 minute turn and then has to "share" the toy, in the meantime the other child is whining about wanting to play with the toy.  

Something I have found to work well with "my kids" is that each child can have one "special" toy a day.  This is a toy the child does not have to share and the other child is not to ask to play with or touch.  I have found this works really well for these particular kids, they are very respectful of each others "special toys". One problem you can run into with this is that then the child tries to say everything is their special toy, I just make sure to state that you only get one special toy and that all other toys are for sharing.  I generally try not to enforce turns but rather have a "if you stop playing with it or put it down, the toy is fair game" approach.  I also keep a look out for a child trying to hoard toys or just keep another child from playing with something for the sake of not sharing, if this happens I will enforce some turn taking.  If a particular toy is becoming so coveted that it is ruining the day, that toy gets put away until the children can play with it nicely.

And yes, trying to get on neutral ground or involved in an "open" activity like playdough or water play, is a great idea.

Personally, in the situation you describe I wouldn't really have expected the boy to share his bike.  I would have just told my DD that she can ride her own bike and that this was the boys special bike and it is ok for him not to share it, on the same token, I would expect the boy to ride his own bike and not make my child share their bike.  If everyone just couldn't accept this, the bikes would be put away.

[swd12422]

kittynurse, both boys wanted the friend's bike, and DS was asking for a turn and being denied. I told him if the answer is no that he should ride his own bike or  play with something else. He didn't want to do that, he wanted friend's bike. Friend rode DS's bike for a little bit, but every time DS took a turn on friend's bike (which was every time the friend wasn't on it) friend ran over and reclaimed the bike, and refused to let DS have a turn. Friend would then just sit on the bike, not riding it, and DS would eventually end up over there, asking for a turn.  When friend said no, DS decided pushing was the way to go. I didn't see if friend pushed him away first, but that has happened before.I guess I should have taken all the bikes and been done with it, and just kept removing toys as they became issues til there was nothing left. At least then the toys would have all been picked up!

[Tjej]

Perhaps this might help - something I've been explaining to my kids lately is that in group play you only have the toys in your hands.  So since the other boy wasn't playing with his bike it wasn't his turn - he wasn't allowed to take it away.  Does that make sense?  Otherwise, kids do tend to think "once mine, always mine" and have a harder time when others have a turn. 

Tjej