**LONG** - Vent (sort of) about random issues we're having. All input welcome, but please be...

[Storm Bride]

Okay, so...we've been officially homeschooling for almost three years. That's for dd1, who's in grade two. This is ds2's first year, as he's kindergarten age.

This hasn't been a great year, imo. We've had some progress with dd1. She's been "behind" on her reading, which was a non-isuse for me at first, but dh was really freaked about it. We eventually discovered - last year - that she needed glasses for fairly severe astigmatisms, which was part of her problem. However, when dh was still pushing it, and she was still having so much trouble, she developed a real resistance to reading, which she's not 100% over. This isn't a huge deal to me, in terms of "OMG - she's almost 8 and she can't read yet!!!" or anything. But, I do want her reading, because it's such a valuable tool for gathering information. She's fine with sitting down and being read to, and will now try to actually read the words in books that she's memorized, so that's good.

She's also had some major resistance to any formal math. I've finally decided that she has to do two questions a day in her Math Mammoth worktexts, simple because she's avoiding math for such long periods of time that she forgets everything she'd started to learn, and then gets bored and frustrated. It's hard to build on what you know when you don't stick with anything. So...this seems to be working out okay, but I'm having a bit of trouble letting go of my expectation that she'll start to love math (dh and I are both naturally gifted at math, and I know better than to project that on our kids, but sometimes I slip up).

DS2 is...I don't know what's up with him. He won't work on most things remotely grade level, because he assumes they're too hard for him. But, my mom got him a kindergarten workbook for Christmas (not because he's homeschooling - she just thought he'd enjoy it) and he loves the thing. But, he also finds it really, really, really easy and basic. He's reading at dd1's level or higher and I'm not even sure how it happened, as he doesn't like being read to (will put up with it very rarely, but most of the time, he's not interested). He's also a screen addict, which bothers me a bit, but not that much, except that we only have one computer and i use it for various things throughout the day. DH is thinking of getting an iPad, but we don't have the money right now. (This would only be used under strict supervision, as he's prone to throwing and breaking things.)

Then, there's the general picture. I'm semi/kinda unschooling friendly, but I know i'm not proactive enough about exposing my kids to things or relaxed enough about the "she's not reading yet" stuff, to really call myself an unschooler. What I am is exhausted, scrambled and just not on top of things. We're starting the process to get ds2 assessed, because there's something "off" (I don't know what to call ilt - really don't) about him. I"ve' now had multiple people, including people who work int he field and a couple of parents of children with autism suggest austism spectrum disorder, and he fits it really well in a lot of ways, and not so well iln others. He's really, really smart, but behaviourally/socially/emotionally, he seems more like a 2-3 year old than an almost 6 year old most of the time. He hits, throws, spills, breaks, etc. on a daily basis, and has wild meltdowns. (Yesterday, he came with me to drop dd1 off for a playdate, and while I was talking briefly with the mom, ds2 went upstairs, which was okay, then he refused to leave, started screaming and yelling and running away. I ended up carrying him back to my minivan, while the other mom carried both dd2 and ds2's boots for me. During that short walk, he both tried to choke me and punched me in the arm, and also called me a bonehead. He curled up in his booster seat and screamed and cried and refused to let me do up his seatbelt. It was a fairly bad meltdown, but certainly not unheard of for him.) I'm not on top of him the way I should be, because 1) I have dd2 to look after, as well, and 2) I'm just plain burning out on dealing with it. I wake up at least 2-3 mornings a week to some kind of crisis...something broken, someone hurt, ds2 threatening to hit dd1 or throw something at dd2 or whatever. I'm not getting enough sleep. I'm just wiped.

My organizational skills are almost non-existent right now. I can think "I need to take such-and-such" out of the freezer 10-15 times a day, and get distracted every time, and never do it. I have plans for the day, and then I cope with the morning's criss and don't do them. DS2 has spent most of this week in front of the tv (this part is NOT normal, though). We were going to go out for a walk (in bad weather) or playground time (in good weather) every morning, unless we had other plans, this "school" year. It's happened...three times, I think. Admittedly, there have been a lot of bugs going around this Fall/Winter, and we've been sick a lot, but it's mostly that I just don't seem to have the oomph once I deal with whatever the morning brings, in terms of crises. The illnesses have also meant that my multiple planned "field trips" (to the Aquarium, science center, Honeybee center, etc.) haven't happened. There have been a very few, mostly early in the year.

The kids do have some activities - a biweekly meetup with some other homeschooling families (mostly social, but also a craft each week, and an occasional simple science experiment), and they're each in a dance class (had a big performance a couple weeks ago). DS2 also takes Tae Kwon Do, and dd1 also takes piano. But, they basically spend hours every day just playing. I don't really object to that, but I do want them doing a few other things, yk?

I think I'm really in a funk, because this last couple of weeks has been really bad. I'm sooooo exhausted that I don't even want to get out of bed. I have another cold (or allergies, maybe - I've never had them, but I guess it's possible) and today I have a headache. (The headache is hormonal - I get it for about a half day or so before, and then for the first day or two during, my period. I've also been in wretched/irritable mood for the last few days, but that's also hormonal and will be better by tomorrow mornning.) I'm really edgy about dealing with bureaucratic hoop-jumping for ds2's assessment. I've finally realized that I need help (help is something I've always struggled with), but I don't know exactly what I need, or where to ask for it. I need more sleep, which is starting to happen (dd2 is partly transitioned out of our bed, and isn't nursing all night, anymore. I've even had two nights in the last 2-3 weeks with no wake-up calls at all!)

On top of all this stuff, we don't have a lot of space, which is frustrating me. The only place we have for science experiments and crafts is the dining table. And, dd2 gets into everything, even when the table is clear (another ongoing and seemingly insurmountable task). We recently reorganized our living room and office space (one big area with the piano and some shelving acting as the border), so we have places to store all our homeschool stuff (kits, books, globe, abacus, etc. etc.). That's progress, but the rest of the place needs work, too. I just seem to be spinning in circles and it seems as though anything my kids manage to learn is despite me. :o

So...yeah...if you read all that, thank you. I know I need to get myself sorted out, but I'm really having trouble figuring out what to do first.

[VisionaryMom]

For my disclaimer, I don't homeschool. I just like to read about education, mostly. Anyway, what I'm realizing (because I also have a hard time organizing myself and work at home with kids underfoot) is that prioritizing makes a difference for me. So, when I wake up, the number 1 thing is to help get DS and DH out the door. Then it's working a certain amount. By that time, DD is up, and then the priority is getting her dressed, fed, and some activities set up. Then it's schoolwork (for me), an activity w/ dd, lunch, etc. So there's a rhythm to the day based on the "most important" thing that needs me at the time. 

So for you, the first thing sounds like it's getting your son's morning meltdown out of the way. Then you can feed everyone breakfast and make sure they're dressed. Then you can go on a walk or to the playground. If the walk doesn't happen until close to lunchtime because the morning meltdown, breakfast, and getting dressed too a long time, that's okay. You're not on a time schedule. So basically lower the expectations tremendously, but set it up so that whatever is at the top of the priority list should get done. Some things will only get done on an awesome day and just be okay with that.

Can you work de-cluttering into that list? It seems from this post and others that you have a lot of clutter in your house that's causing significant problems. If you could make de-cluttering part of the priority and have the kids participate (as much as is feasible), then I think you may find that your house/organizational skills aren't as big of an issue. 

[AAK]

Sending you (((hugs))))

The crazyness is very normal, esp with the ages you have right now.

About your son, you are doing a great thing trying to figure out what is going on.  It will get better.

About your oldest dd, assuming that she has the basic phoneologic skills--I wouldn't worry about the reading thing.  IF she does have gaps in those skills, I would try to remedy those before actively trying to teach her to read.  At age 8, if she doesn't have those skills, I would suspect dyslexia.  There is a great dyslexia yahoo group.  Some kids really aren't interested and then all of a sudden they are and it is like magic.  You can find many of those stories on here.  Then, there are kids who need to be taught a bit differently. . . they won't "just get it".  That was my dd2.  She is also 8 and almost up to grade level for reading.

Amy

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom 

For my disclaimer, I don't homeschool. I just like to read about education, mostly. Anyway, what I'm realizing (because I also have a hard time organizing myself and work at home with kids underfoot) is that prioritizing makes a difference for me. So, when I wake up, the number 1 thing is to help get DS and DH out the door. Then it's working a certain amount. By that time, DD is up, and then the priority is getting her dressed, fed, and some activities set up. Then it's schoolwork (for me), an activity w/ dd, lunch, etc. So there's a rhythm to the day based on the "most important" thing that needs me at the time. 

So for you, the first thing sounds like it's getting your son's morning meltdown out of the way. Then you can feed everyone breakfast and make sure they're dressed. Then you can go on a walk or to the playground. If the walk doesn't happen until close to lunchtime because the morning meltdown, breakfast, and getting dressed too a long time, that's okay. You're not on a time schedule. So basically lower the expectations tremendously, but set it up so that whatever is at the top of the priority list should get done. Some things will only get done on an awesome day and just be okay with that.

The bolded would probably be a really, really great starting place for me. I always feel as if there's no point if I haven't got it done right after breakfast. When I actually type that out, it sounds really stupid, though! We don't have to get out the door at a certain time for the walk/playground to be worth it. Thanks. I think I've been chasing my tail for so long that I've just my ability to prioritize...everything is huge, even things that totally aren't!

Can you work de-cluttering into that list? It seems from this post and others that you have a lot of clutter in your house that's causing significant problems. If you could make de-cluttering part of the priority and have the kids participate (as much as is feasible), then I think you may find that your house/organizational skills aren't as big of an issue.

I actually have less clutter than ever before, but it's actually bothering me more. Cluter used to just be there, but now it's actually in my way - too much stuff on the floor to vacuum/sweep as often as I'd like...too much stuff on the table to do things easily...too much stuff on the counter to cook the healthy lunches I'd like for myself, etc. etc. I definitely need to declutter - just can't seem to find a strategy that works for me, especially with the ds2/dd2 combo going on right now (dd2 is very sweet...but she's also 21 months old, so books/VHS tapes/DVDs aren't staying on shelves and stuffies are in the kitchen and things like that). I need to deal with this, too.

ETA: The other clutter problem is that I seem to have a real block with cleaning up. I'm good ith anything that has a specific spot, which is part of why the recent reorganization was so helpful, but I'm awful at figuring out a new home for something that doesn't have one yet. Now that I'm thinking about it, I think I have some kind of belief that it (whatever "it" is) has some perfect cosmic home, and I have to figure out exactly what it is, because putting it in the "wrong" place would be really bad.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by AAK 

Sending you (((hugs))))

The crazyness is very normal, esp with the ages you have right now.

Thank you. That helps. Sometimes, I forget that homeschooling with a bunch of kids of various ages (esp. with another one in public school - and his grad year has definitely added to the crazy!), including one who probably has special needs, is a lot, and it's not suprising that it feels that way!

About your son, you are doing a great thing trying to figure out what is going on.  It will get better.

Thanks. I've had a gut feeling that he doesn't have typical brain wiring for a couple of years, but I kept letting myself be talked into "he's just all boy" and "you're too easy on him" stuff. I feel as though I've waited way too long, and have to keep reminding myself he is still only five.

About your oldest dd, assuming that she has the basic phoneologic skills--I wouldn't worry about the reading thing.  IF she does have gaps in those skills, I would try to remedy those before actively trying to teach her to read.  At age 8, if she doesn't have those skills, I would suspect dyslexia.  There is a great dyslexia yahoo group.  Some kids really aren't interested and then all of a sudden they are and it is like magic.  You can find many of those stories on here.  Then, there are kids who need to be taught a bit differently. . . they won't "just get it".  That was my dd2.  She is also 8 and almost up to grade level for reading.

Thanks. I think that's happening. DD1 is funny with reading. She has a spelling book now, and follows it really well, and can read the exercises (you know, basic "fill in the blank in this sentence" type things). But, when we go over words, she'll frequently try to use the wrong vowel, and I'm not sure why. She does get the sounds, but she seems to need to really think about them or something. I'm going to pay more attention to exactly what's going on with her, because I have seen a lot of progress. We also moved more to teaching her a lot of sight words (hence, the spelling books), as the more-or-less pure phonics approach didn't seem to be working for her. That was only the last few months, but I do think it's helping. We'll see how it goes. I just need to keep in mind that this is only one year, and I haven't ruined them for life...

Amy

[AAK]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

ETA: The other clutter problem is that I seem to have a real block with cleaning up. I'm good ith anything that has a specific spot, which is part of why the recent reorganization was so helpful, but I'm awful at figuring out a new home for something that doesn't have one yet. Now that I'm thinking about it, I think I have some kind of belief that it (whatever "it" is) has some perfect cosmic home, and I have to figure out exactly what it is, because putting it in the "wrong" place would be really bad.

Sometimes, for me, the clutter aspect gets overwhelming and I "spin circles" when I try to clean/tidy.  What helps (and helps my kids too) is to take a big basket, we use a laundry basket, and sweep all the contents into it from the designated space.  Then, for some reason, it seems more manageable.  Instead of "the whole table" being messy, we have one basket of stuff to put away.  I've been know to do that, then do school on the table, and then put the stuff away.  

Amy

[jeteaa]

I can relate. dd1 who is almost 7 is very resistant to reading and doing any math, even IRL addition or subtraction. its very frustrating...... but we have tried the PS school thing and NO WAY will I put her back into that situation. I have to say though, with spring arriving and actually having pleasant weather to enjoy being outdoors, it has made life soooo much more enjoyable. 

[AAK]

Have you seen this website?

http://www.aability.com/pawhatis.php

Perhaps with your dd, you could switch to just reading out loud to her (which she likes) and then playing oral games in the car, or while you're nursing the little one, etc.  Build the skills and turn it into fun.  You don't even need a clean table to do this. :)

[Lillian J]

First, a hug ... I hope you're trying to give yourself credit and be easy on yourself - you have a lot on your plate with four children's needs going in all directions.

I'm still sipping my morning coffee, really tired from a stressful week - so I'm afraid I can't contribute much except for the thought that I think it would be a good idea to try to eliminate those concerns that aren't really necessary to have right now. That can free you up to deal with the ones that really are important.

For instance, you wrote:

"DS2 is...I don't know what's up with him. He won't work on most things remotely grade level, because he assumes they're too hard for him. But, my mom got him a kindergarten workbook for Christmas (not because he's homeschooling - she just thought he'd enjoy it) and he loves the thing. But, he also finds it really, really, really easy and basic. He's reading at dd1's level or higher and I'm not even sure how it happened, as he doesn't like being read to (will put up with it very rarely, but most of the time, he's not interested)"

Since he's reading, he's way ahead in that department, and I see no reason why you're trying to get him to "work" on anything - I think you have enough real issues going on with him. And a child his age doesn't really need to be working on things in order to learn - especially if he's already reading. The key, it seems to me, is to find more books like the one she gave him and just let him continue to have fun with them without putting pressure on him to be working on things he's not comfortable with. If he has lots of interesting (to him) books around, he's likely to be able to keep up his enjoyment. The fact that he enjoys workbooks at all means he'll be able to learn a lot on his own as he goes along, and the fact that he's reading well shows he has learning skills that will serve him well. So instead of fretting over his lack of cooperation with school materials, you could let go of that and put your attention into the behavioral issues that concern you.

Here's are a few resources that might help find some books your children will be drawn to on their own:

Children's Picture Books - many for older children as well!
Lists and descriptions of great picture books, some of which can beautifully introduce concepts in math, science, and other subjects.

100 Picture Books Everyone Should Know - compiled by N.Y. Public Library.

Here's an annotated list I put together of links to good educational resource websites. It seems as if your children would do better with resources and activities that don't center around traditional school materials, and that's something that isn't really hard to accommodate. You might be amazed at how much they can learn from being engaged in games and other fun and simple activities. Come to think of it, here's a MDC thread on Favorite educational games, and here's one on favorite math games and manipulatives.

And this resource might help keep them all engaged:

Kiddie Records Weekly - Classics From the Golden Age
Fabulous forgotten treasures - children's records from the early 40s and 50s, including many classic stories, some of which were extravagant Hollywood productions. Downloadable to listen to free.

In fact, you could probably get some great relief from a number of such sources - here are some threads on audio resources:

Favorite free audio resources

Free audio books for kids

It seems as if you've all been through a depleting winter and some stressful times - being sick can set back an adult, but to have a home full of sickness multiplies the stress and depletion. I think you'd be ahead to not worry about the "educational" concerns so much right now, but to focus on the fun things you can do together. - Lillian

Edited by Lillian J - 3/26/11 at 11:13am

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Lillian J 

First, a hug ... I hope you're trying to give yourself credit and be easy on yourself - you have a lot on your plate with four children's needs going in all directions.

I'm still sipping my morning coffee, really tired from a stressful week - so I'm afraid I can't contribute much except for the thought that I think it would be a good idea to try to eliminate those concerns that aren't really necessary to have right now. That can free you up to deal with the ones that really are important.

For instance, you wrote:

"DS2 is...I don't know what's up with him. He won't work on most things remotely grade level, because he assumes they're too hard for him. But, my mom got him a kindergarten workbook for Christmas (not because he's homeschooling - she just thought he'd enjoy it) and he loves the thing. But, he also finds it really, really, really easy and basic. He's reading at dd1's level or higher and I'm not even sure how it happened, as he doesn't like being read to (will put up with it very rarely, but most of the time, he's not interested)"

Since he's reading, he's way ahead in that department, and I see no reason why you're trying to get him to "work" on anything - I think you have enough real issues going on with him. And a child his age doesn't really need to be working on things in order to learn - especially if he's already reading. The key, it seems to me, is to find more books like the one she gave him and just let him continue to have fun with them without putting pressure on him to be working on things he's not comfortable with. If he has lots of interesting (to him) books around, he's likely to be able to keep up his enjoyment. The fact that he enjoys workbooks at all means he'll be able to learn a lot on his own as he goes along, and the fact that he's reading well shows he has learning skills that will serve him well. So instead of fretting over his lack of cooperation with school materials, you could let go of that and put your attention into the behavioral issues that concern you.

This is a good point, but I probably didn't express myself very well. I need to get some things done around here, before I can let ds2 outside, at least for a while, so that I can supervise him fully. But, when he's inside, especially if dd1 is outside, he mostly only wants to watch tv and play computer games (and trash stuff). I'm wishing he'd find a workbook or other activity that would engage him more. Honestly, I'd be happy with colouring! - but he doesn't like that most of the time, either. I may actually just get him another K workbook, as he's finished everything in the Christmas one that interests him (ie. everything except the "trace the letters/numbers" stuff), and see how that goes. I really want  him to be doing something other than creating havoc and asking to watch tv or "play with my background" (this is what he calls it when he does anything on his own log-in).

[Lillian J]

Ah! Maybe you made that clear and I just didn't get it - was awfully tired this morning. What about making electronic stuff offlimits for of the day, setting up more active things like construction toys and crafts, piles of inviting books as well as the workbooks, dot to dot books, a box of small pieces of wood scraps and fabrics to join with glue, and big pieces of cloth for making forts, clay, a sandtray with figures to create stories with, a costume corner with wall hooks for holding things, occasional finger paints and easel paint (things that don't require what he may think of as skills or goals). Actually, come to think of it, I know of a Waldorf inspired school that set up a sand table for the specific purpose of helping high strung children calm their nerves while using their imaginations, and it really helped - they thought of it as therapy. My son and a good friend of his were still spending lots of relaxed and quiet hours in a large sandbox with lots of adventure figures and animals when they were as old as 11, making rivers with water, setting up scenes with wooden buildings, etc. I'm just thinking that the only way he's going to lose so much attraction to the tv and computer would be for things in his immediate world to have a stronger pull.

And maybe the upcoming warmer months of spring and summer will help all around.  Winter can get pretty bleak, and lots of us have been experiencing more intense weather than we have in years.

Lillian

[Storm Bride]

Spring and summer will be much better. I'd love to set up a sandtable for ds2 (and dd1, for that matter), but I have nowhere to put one. I could probably set up a smal sand work station of some kind at our table, though. I know he loves Moonsand, so I could go from that. That's food for thought.

And, actually, it's not the kind of thing I'd normally give a child his age, but I may dig out the old sensory bucket - it's mostly full of rice, barley, oats, etc., and the kids used to love hiding things in it and stuff like that. It might be a good activity. I tend to shy away from it, because of the mess level. (Our townhouse is a rental, and the dining area is carpeted, so I'm very mess-averse...not a pro-homeschooling trait, I'm afraid!)

And, honestly some of this is cyclical. My hormones were kicking my butt for the last few days, but I'm much better today and not feeling quite so bleak about the whole thing.

[Naturallove]

Big hugs! I don't think that there is a homeschooling mom around who can't relate to having been exactly where you are at in terms of feeling guilty, questioning your abilities, not meeting your personal expectations and feeling completely frustrated and overwhelmed.

In terms of your DD, I think you just keep plugging away at the phonics and perhaps try a different approach. I recently introduced my DS1 to Explode the Code Online and Headsprout and he is loving those! It is yet to be seen how effective they are, but the change of pace has helped. Take comfort in knowing that there are entire educational philosophies that say you shouldn't even begin teaching your children to read until they are 8. And it totally makes sense that she is a little behind because of her eye sight. I would stick with it and if she isn't making any progress in 6 months or so, maybe look into screening for dyslexia. As a person who was never fond of math growing up and who had a father that was an accountant and worked problems in calculus textbooks for fun, I can tell you that sometimes your kids don't like the same things you do (It sounds like you already get that). I would try to "sneak" math in with some games either hands on or on the computer. I know Math Mammoth has lots of online resources with each chapter. My DS1 loves to be on the computer so, he will play those "games" and not even realize he is doing math. I haven't used it yet, but I know that Right Start Math also has a book of math card games. You may just have to try a few different approaches to make the math a little sweeter as it goes down. ;)

I think it is wonderful that you are looking into figuring what is going on with your DS. Until that gets sorted out, I would really be relaxed about schooling with him. It is only kindergarten and whatever he gets will be great.

Mostly, just hang in there. Like I said, as homeschoolers we all go through seasons of our lives like this. Just know that you are doing a good job and doing the best you can for your little ones. Hugs.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 
I tend to shy away from it, because of the mess level. (Our townhouse is a rental, and the dining area is carpeted, so I'm very mess-averse...not a pro-homeschooling trait, I'm afraid!)

Here's a thought. For my own oil and acrylic art painting area, I got a big canvas tarp in the painting supplies department of a hardware store - the kind house painters use - to put under my easels. They come in all sizes - and they fold up quite small to put away in between uses. Or if you have a small one, you can just leave it out.  - Lillian

[sapphire_chan]

Or do stuff in the bathrooms. For about a year, I had dd paint in the bathtub. (Of course she's a lot younger than your kids, but still...) My tarp now is a vinyl picnic tablecloth like they sell at party supply stores.

Regarding your dd and reading, do they have books on tape at your library? It might help you if you can help her learn other things without you having to give direct input.

For math, see if you can find the book Anno's Math Games. It introduces mathematical concepts that might sink in better than math facts and will assist in utilizing math facts when those get into place.

Here's hoping that spring will make things better all around!

[laohaire]

OK, here's my plan.

1) I have been wanting our town (in MA) to defect to Canada for some time now. So I'll go ahead and get that done.

2) Now that we're both Canadian, our transporter setup won't break any laws or even require any passports or IDs.

3) Every morning when your middle kids wake up, beam them over to my house. I promise I'll confirm they got here safely. They can do me a favor and give DD some social playtime, which she always wants more (and more and more and more) of. I'll feed them lunch, too (it'll be lunch over here because of the time difference, but it can be a brunchy sort of lunch).

4) Then I'll do relaxed homeschooly things with the kids for a little while. Braiding unicorn hair and all that. I'll fail at anything I attempt, and then you'll know it's not just you.

5) I'll send your kids back over and everybody can have some quiet time.

6) You take my kid for a while later on. If anyone at all pays attention to her (she's like an attention black hole; she'll suck it all out of any nearby object that has the capacity for attention) then I will be grateful. Of course when she comes back, she'll still immediately say "what will you do with me now, mama?"

7) Our houses won't be cleaner and our kids won't be any more learned, but maybe we can catch a break for a little while.

Well, maybe there's a few holes in that plan.

[laohaire]

Trying again, maybe with a better plan. I don't recall if I've already recommended this book to you before. Right Brained Kids in a Left Brained World. Visual perception/memorization over phonics decoding for these kinds of kids. Age 8 is considered the age that right brained kids typically become literate, often suddenly.

[Storm Bride]

I liked your first plan, Laohaire! I'll try to remember to look for that one at the library the next time we go. I need to make some lists of the resources people suggest and find somewhere to keep the lists where I'll be able to find them.