Can I handle neighborhood kids excluding dd better?

[LynnS6]

I hope I can make this clear -- there's a 'cast of characters' that is hard to keep track of so I've given a few pseudonyms.

Our dd (age 6) is the youngest of the kids on our street. There is one girl, call her "Kerry",  close in age to dd (about 6 months older) who dd plays OK with most of the time. Kerry's parents are divorced and so on Fridays and Saturdays, Kerry's with her dad.

All the other kids on our street are 2+ years older than dd, and the kids range from 8-12. Our son is in the middle of the pack. Ds (age 9) has 2 kids he plays with in particular: One boy, "Ted" and one girl, "Cindy". Ted is Kerry's 12  year old brother, and Cindy is our 8 year old neighbor.

On days when Kerry is not there, the other kids (sometimes including ds - we're working on this) actively exclude dd. Sometimes they will say they just don't want to play what she's playing, other times they ditch dd and go over to the neighbor's house and hide. Cindy tends to be the leader of this exclusion. Ted is actually really good at including everyone (he's the sweetest kid), but since he's with his dad when his sister is, dd gets a double whammy: her friend Kerry is gone and the moderating influence of her friend's older brother is gone.

I'm struggling with 2 things: I don't want to force the other kids to play with dd. She is younger, her play interests aren't always the same, and she can be a bit whiny. She's much better than she was last year in terms of tone, but she's 6, and they're 8+.

But, Cindy to be untruthful when she doesn't want to play with dd -- instead of saying "I don't want to play with you" (hard, I know), she'll tell dd that "no one is allowed to come in our house right now". But then suddenly the neighbor across the street is allowed in, then ds is allowed in, and dd is excluded. A lot of the games they play could easily include dd, and they just choose not to. They also tend to be a little snotty in terms of tone with her.

So far, I've been commiserating with dd, hauling ds home when they're playing "ditch the 6 year old" and letting the rest go.

What I'd like to do is give Cindy a quick kick in the pants and tell her to include dd. I've resisted the urge so far.  What can I do that's more productive than that?

[Linda on the move]

It sounds like just one child is the problem. Are you friends with her parents? Do they know what she's doing?

What is supervision like at her house?

When we've had neighbor kids who were nasty, they always lacked appropriate supervision at home. Every single time. Unless her parents don't have a clue what she's up to and would quickly put an end to it, my guess is that you really don't want either of your kids playing over there. We've had kids that mine were only allowed to play with outside, in the front yard.

[meemee]

lynn i am a little confused. so are you saying sometimes cindy, DS, DD and other kids DO play together (on the weekends when the other bro and sis are gone) but mostly she is not allowed?

and when she is not allowed, you also ask DS to return home?

But, Cindy to be untruthful when she doesn't want to play with dd -- instead of saying "I don't want to play with you" (hard, I know), she'll tell dd that "no one is allowed to come in our house right now". But then suddenly the neighbor across the street is allowed in, then ds is allowed in, and dd is excluded. A lot of the games they play could easily include dd, and they just choose not to. They also tend to be a little snotty in terms of tone with her.

i think you've just hit upon typical girl catty behaviour. i have heard this from my own dd's mouth AND i hear it at her school a lot and i have heard it told to her. there is a power to 'no one' that you doesnt have. when dd and her friend use it against his 5 year old bro.

honestly i would not get involved in this at all. let them sort it out. even if it means your dd is hurt. 

i would say talk to dd and give her lots of empathy and strengthen her. show her through books, movies or whatever medium you feel is more appealing to her and give her techniques of how to handle herself and her emotions (though that by itself might be a problem)

 i would also talk to your son indirectly.                                                                                    

[amma_mama]

Honestly, as much as it hurts to be excluded and to see your child excluded, I think that kids have a right to choose who they want to play with, as long as they are not mean about it. I also do not think that one should obligate a child to always play with their sibling.  Maybe it is not right that the girl tells a white lie to exclude your DD but your DD gets the same message either way.  I would deal, instead, with the snottiness, letting Cindy know that it is fine if they want to sometimes play without DD but that snottiness is not permitted. As for your DS, I would only haul him home if HE was also being snotty and mean to your DD, otherwise let him enjoy having friends in the neighborhood. I would find something else for your DD to do during those times when the sister and brother are not around and let your DS have fun with his friends.

[Ldavis24]

Hmm if the little girl told your DD that "I don't want to play WITH YOU!" instead of just saying no one can play, would you be coming to MDC angry that a little girl was so mean to your DD??

I am not trying to be a jerk I am serious! I see so many of these threads and I find that what the parent wants is generally the same, for their LO to be included in the play even when the other kids don't want them there. I also notice it is generally because the LO being excluded is younger than the others and we all know kids don't really always enjoy playing with others who are 2 or 3 or 4 years younger than them...

Honestly, the fact that she said "no one" can come play and then other kids did wouldn't have bothered me at all. It is a lot to expect a little girl to be so upfront and say "I don't want to play with you"...I know plenty of adults who can't be this upfront with other adults, so why are we shocked a little kid isn't?

I feel like it's not what the little girl said to your DD but the fact that she has excluded your younger child from play that is upsetting you the most. It doesn't matter what that little girl would have said to your DD..

Leave it alone, I can't see why trying to force a kid to play with yours is a good thing...I also don't get making your DS leave the playing just because his kid sister is getting excluded. I am the oldest and my brother is about 2 years younger, I would have been so angry at my mom if she did that to me whenever my brother wasn't included.

[Lisa1970]

I do not think what is going on is that bad. Your 6 yr old is much younger than them. I would not really want my 6 yr old, alone in the house, with the 8-12 yr old crowd. I think Cindy is trying to spare your daughter's feelings by saying no one is allowed to come in, probably not realizing that your little girl figures it out when the other kids go in later. I think Cindy is handling it just fine.

Frankly, when much younger children try to hang around my older children too much, I grow to feel like my children are babysitting or entertaining them. That is really how the dynamics go. I would bring your daughter home and let your son have his own social life and have your daughter play around the house when Kerry is gone.

[rainbringer]

Dd had some similar things happening to her at homeschool park days.  There were a few girls who would run and hide when she tried to play with them.  Dd thought they were playing hide and seek.  I have to admit I haven't figured out how to deal with it, we just started trying different activities without those girls and things have been so much better.  I also found the book Little Girls Can Be Mean to be helpful with ideas of how to support dd when stuff like this happens. 

I know she is a neighbor but you could limit contact by not letting the kids go over there.  I agonized about what to do in our situation and finally decided, there are so many kids who are nice to dd, why spend much time with those who aren't.  

[LynnS6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 

Hmm if the little girl told your DD that "I don't want to play WITH YOU!" instead of just saying no one can play, would you be coming to MDC angry that a little girl was so mean to your DD??

I am not trying to be a jerk I am serious! I see so many of these threads and I find that what the parent wants is generally the same, for their LO to be included in the play even when the other kids don't want them there.

I've thought about it, and I would prefer for her to say "I don't want to play with you right now" or more politely "I just want to play with your brother right now." It's the passive aggressive nature of what she's doing that drives me batty.
 

Originally Posted by meemee 

lynn i am a little confused. so are you saying sometimes cindy, DS, DD and other kids DO play together (on the weekends when the other bro and sis are gone) but mostly she is not allowed?

and when she is not allowed, you also ask DS to return home? 

Not quite. Sometimes the whole group plays nicely together. Sometimes they're doing things that dd isn't interested in (playing baseball) and so she wanders off to do her own thing, and sometimes they exclude her. I think it's worse when their mom isn't home. Their mom is decent, and if it escalates, I'll talk to her. Dad is an OK guy, but a bit self-centered, so he probably doesn't notice.

I only ask ds to return home when he's been actively misleading dd or otherwise being mean (at one point in time yesterday they were throwing pine cones in the back yard and kept 'accidentally' hitting her. I don't know if it was accidental or not, but that stopped.). So, yesterday, after chewing him out for not making it clear whose house he was going to be in (it was one of 2 neighbors, but I didn't know where he was, which is a big no-no at our house), I let him stay at Cindy's house, even though dd wasn't invited. 

But, Cindy tends to be untruthful when she doesn't want to play with dd -- instead of saying "I don't want to play with you" (hard, I know), she'll tell dd that "no one is allowed to come in our house right now". But then suddenly the neighbor across the street is allowed in, then ds is allowed in, and dd is excluded. A lot of the games they play could easily include dd, and they just choose not to. They also tend to be a little snotty in terms of tone with her.

i think you've just hit upon typical girl catty behaviour. i have heard this from my own dd's mouth AND i hear it at her school a lot and i have heard it told to her. there is a power to 'no one' that you doesnt have. when dd and her friend use it against his 5 year old bro.  

Yes, it's the typical girl catty behavior that I think I'm reacting strongly to. I was having a hard time figuring out why this was bothering me so much, and I think it's because it's very much "Queen Bee" kind of behavior. I'm also trying to figure out what to do with ds when he follows along with that kind of meanness. I don't want to force him to play with his sister, but I don't want to reinforce meanness either.

Originally Posted by Lisa1970 

I do not think what is going on is that bad. Your 6 yr old is much younger than them. I would not really want my 6 yr old, alone in the house, with the 8-12 yr old crowd. I think Cindy is trying to spare your daughter's feelings by saying no one is allowed to come in, probably not realizing that your little girl figures it out when the other kids go in later. I think Cindy is handling it just fine

Well, to clarify, it's usually a 8-9 year old crowd, as the 12 year olds rarely hang out with the little ones, unless they're playing a street game such as capture the flag, or unless the older boy is playing with ds. While it's possible that Cindy is trying to spare dd's feelings, I get the sense that it's more of a power trip for her, and that's what's bothering me. When they need her, she's included. When they don't, she's excluded. That is not nice.

However, the general consensus seems to be that I really can't do anything about it. Sigh. I just hate seeing dd's feelings hurt. (OK, and I hate having her first sob about being excluded, and then hanging around the house moaning about the lack of kids her age on our street.)

[AllisonR]

Originally Posted by Lisa1970 

I do not think what is going on is that bad. Your 6 yr old is much younger than them. I would not really want my 6 yr old, alone in the house, with the 8-12 yr old crowd. I think Cindy is trying to spare your daughter's feelings by saying no one is allowed to come in, probably not realizing that your little girl figures it out when the other kids go in later. I think Cindy is handling it just fine.

Frankly, when much younger children try to hang around my older children too much, I grow to feel like my children are babysitting or entertaining them. That is really how the dynamics go. I would bring your daughter home and let your son have his own social life and have your daughter play around the house when Kerry is gone.

ITA. Even if it is mostly the 8-10 yo that are excluding, your DD is still 2-4 years younger. She might share some common interests, but she will not share life experiences, esp. social experiences, of those 2 years older. When my son (6) has friends over, sometimes he includes DD (4), but sometimes he really doesn't want to. If they are playing Yatze or Uno, she can play along, and often beats the heck out of them. But if they are talking about school or putting on a theatre with characters that suit the 6yo crowd, she can not really join in a way that is fun and natural for everyone. They are doing 6 yo things and she just is not relating and playing on their level. 

So I think it is totally fair my DS doesn't want her around at those times. Does she get her feelings hurt? Yes. Especially the first 2-3 times it happened. She was in tears, asking me why they would not let her join in, asking me to insist she was allowed to play as well.... But I realized "making them" was not really going to work, and it was not fair to my son and his friends either. So I spent a good deal of time explaining it to her, and then spent time specifically with her. Now when it happens she probably isn't overjoyed, but she understands it, and it doesn't ruin her day, or even her hour. This was a valuable life lesson. 
 

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

Well, to clarify, it's usually a 8-9 year old crowd, as the 12 year olds rarely hang out with the little ones, unless they're playing a street game such as capture the flag, or unless the older boy is playing with ds. While it's possible that Cindy is trying to spare dd's feelings, I get the sense that it's more of a power trip for her, and that's what's bothering me. When they need her, she's included. When they don't, she's excluded. That is not nice.

However, the general consensus seems to be that I really can't do anything about it. Sigh. I just hate seeing dd's feelings hurt. (OK, and I hate having her first sob about being excluded, and then hanging around the house moaning about the lack of kids her age on our street.)

Again this may be age. Recently my DS had a boy over that he used to play casually with when he was in daycare. But this boy is almost 2 years younger, and it just did not work. My DS ended up bossing the kid around, giving him directions, and being bored with the lack of true camaraderie. And my son is really mellow and not a bossy kid at all normally, so it surprised me. But I could see that it was not a two-way relationship, and it wasn't a ton of fun for either of them. In your case, they may include her when they feel she can join in, and want to exclude her when they want to talk about and do stuff that is more appropriate to their interests.

Maybe you could find some kids she can play with. Even if they are not on the same street, what about 2 or 3 streets away, or even a short drive. 

[Ldavis24]

I don't really know what to say to that..."I prefer" just makes me shake my head a little bit...

This little girl is doing what she is probably most comfortable with when she says that to your daughter. I don't think she is intentionally being passive aggressive. To the adult who feels liike she isn't doing it right, I would say get over it...This is a little girl learning to navigate social waters, not an adult. She doesn't even know what it means to be passive aggressive.

It is your own problem that it is driving you "batty" it's not this kid's job to do what YOU as an adult would do. It's not her job to make your DD feel good.

I guess I am just irked by the holier than thou attitude about this girl's manners. I don't know, something about it just rubs me the rub wrong.

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

Quote:

I've thought about it, and I would prefer for her to say "I don't want to play with you right now" or more politely "I just want to play with your brother right now." It's the passive aggressive nature of what she's doing that drives me batty.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 
I've thought about it, and I would prefer for her to say "I don't want to play with you right now" or more politely "I just want to play with your brother right now." It's the passive aggressive nature of what she's doing that drives me batty.

I don't read what she's saying as passive aggressive. I can see an 8YO who thinks it's nicer to say, "no one is allowed in my house" than "I don't want you there." Yeah, obviously your dd figures it out, but it seems plausible to me that the girl is actually trying not to be mean and making it a universal rule.

[ZippyGirl]

I can see why this is really bothering you because it is hurting your dd. I don't think you can let a 6-year-old cope with this on her own; it is too confusing and hurtful for her, and she is still of an age where she needs guidance and help from her parents.  I really just want to pass along hugs to you and your little one, but I second the suggestion for "Little Girls Can Be Mean", as well as maybe "Queen Bees and Wannabees".  "Little Girls Can Be Mean" has a nice outline about why letting young girls duke it out on their own is not really a productive path.  If you are on good terms with Cindy's parents, I would talk with them, and I would invite Cindy to spend some time at your house where you can supervise the dynamics between her and your children, as well as help the children navigate positive play with one another. 

Hugs, mama.  I can tell you are empathetic, your daughter is lucky to have you as her mama, and I hope soon you and your dd will soon find a positive resolution.  Good luck!

[mamazee]

I agree that it generally isn't fair to make older kids play with a younger kid if they don't want to, and it also isn't fair to only let your older child play with the kids his age if his younger sibling is allowed to tag along.  As far as the "problem girl" goes, there's no nice way to say "I want to play with other kids and not you" and a kid that age isn't going to be able to come up with a nice way when an adult probably wouldn't even be able to.  I would try to come up with special things you and your dd can do when her brother is playing with the older kids to take away the sting. 

The thing is, at some point kids make friends based on personality and who gets along with whom, and no one's child is going to get along with everyone.  My 9-year-old gets along better with some kids in our neighborhood than others and often wants to play with some of the kids but not others.  My general rule is that if she's playing outside I don't want other kids sitting and watching from the sidelines unable to participate, but I wouldn't make her invite kids she doesn't like inside.  It is a really tricky issue though.  There's a balance between inclusion in a neighborhood and not trying to force kids to play with kids who are at a different development level or who just don't get along.  People don't necessarily become friends just because they live near each other, but a kid shouldn't have to sit in their yard watching all the other neighborhood kids having fun in the yard next door either.  It is hard to find the balance.

There are also two kinds of exclusion.  One is kids not wanting to play with a child of a different age and therefore a different development level, or with a child who fights or breaks things, or whatever.  That is reasonable.  Another is playing mean exclusion games, where, for instance, they make a club you can only join if your name begins with the letters A, J, K or N, and everyone's name begins with with one of those letters except your child whose name begins with S.  That is bullying and I would talk to a parent over that, and I would want someone calling me if my daughter did that.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 

I don't really know what to say to that..."I prefer" just makes me shake my head a little bit...

This little girl is doing what she is probably most comfortable with when she says that to your daughter. I don't think she is intentionally being passive aggressive. To the adult who feels liike she isn't doing it right, I would say get over it...This is a little girl learning to navigate social waters, not an adult. She doesn't even know what it means to be passive aggressive.

It is your own problem that it is driving you "batty" it's not this kid's job to do what YOU as an adult would do. It's not her job to make your DD feel good.

I guess I am just irked by the holier than thou attitude about this girl's manners. I don't know, something about it just rubs me the rub wrong.

Ah... but there's a whole bunch of history with the girls in this family. They have a tendency to be very catty and mean. So it's possible that she's trying to be polite, from where I stand, it's equally possible that she's being rude and/or intentionally hurtful. Hence, my posting. If I'm overreacting (and the consensus is that I am), then I'll back off.

And the ironic thing? Currently the "offender" is sitting in my living room, happily playing Playmobil with dd. They just got done playing Twister. Ds is busy reading the Guiness Book of World Records with her twin. I'll suck it up and let it alone.

Edited by LynnS6 - 3/26/11 at 5:40pm

[Ldavis24]

I don't mean to say don't stick up for your DD...By all means I would object a lot of she was out and out being a little brat but I just guess in this case since you couldn't possibly know for sure, err on the side of caution. This is still a little girl, being passive aggressive is a "talent" that takes years to accumulate, ask me how many passive aggressive family members I have

It's funny the "offender" seems to flip flop a lot...I wonder if there is someone else pulling the strings when your DD has negative incidences with this girl??

[meemee]

Lynn i tell you i am learning so much about girl dynamics. volunteering in class i got to see quite a bit of different behaviours. ack to my utter surprise i found K - dd wanted so bad to be friends with this one girl who was the Queen Bee and yet treated everyone as if she was above them. dd would do anything to be friends with her. change schools. first grade another girl - ugh same thing except this time dd finally got it and didnt want to be friends with her. dd's bf who goes to the same school was completely bowled over by her and would hang out with her constantly. all the time. i dont like making judgements but omg that girl really got to me lynn. she felt she was the cat's miaow. i have never seen a 7 year old with her 'holier than though' attitude. by the end of first grade dd's bf had distanced himself from this girl. by the time she was in second grade she had new friends. she would make friends and they would leave (mostly all play was done on her terms). 

today two years later in 3rd grade that girl is much better. she is kinder, willing to join in play and follow someone elses lead. omg she loves my dd and always makes her things and brings her things. but dd is not interested. they both have the same personality and its interesting that they clash sometimes. even if they dont fight or argue there is always a struggle over who is going to be the leader. there is an extra competitive air around them. 

my point to this long story is that i see kids change so much from K to 3. it seems like girls need to go through a catty period (esp. if they are onlies) before they reach their comfort zone. hopefully