got a letter from cps, now what? - Page 6

[Tumble Bumbles]

I find that story really hard to believe. If a mandated reporter (the therapist) reported the incident to CPS, they would have spoken to the child long before the father even was aware of the situation (CPS can go into a school and speak to a child without the parents present). Furthermore, the therapist's sworn statement would have been enough for a judicial order to speak to the child and a dad "with a lawyer" wouldn't be able to do a thing about it. Unless the dad had Johnny Cochran as his attorney

...and what child molester willingly puts their child in therapy to speak openly about their sexual abuse? The story doesn't add up...

Some kids fall through the cracks.... it's terrible but I'm not going to shoulder the burden of the entire system nor am I, as an innocent person, going to shelve my constitutional rights for the sake of some alleged "greater good". That's how things like The Patriot Act get passed...

[Tumble Bumbles]

double post

[kythe]

Originally Posted by Tumble Bumbles 

I find that story really hard to believe. If a mandated reporter (the therapist) reported the incident to CPS, they would have spoken to the child long before the father even was aware of the situation (CPS can go into a school and speak to a child without the parents present). Furthermore, the therapist's sworn statement would have been enough for a judicial order to speak to the child and a dad "with a lawyer" wouldn't be able to do a thing about it. Unless the dad had Johnny Cochran as his attorney

...and what child molester willingly puts their child in therapy to speak openly about their sexual abuse? The story doesn't add up...

Some kids fall through the cracks.... it's terrible but I'm not going to shoulder the burden of the entire system nor am I, as an innocent person, going to shelve my constitutional rights for the sake of some alleged "greater good". That's how things like The Patriot Act get passed...

The child sees their father on weekend visits, but lives with their mother.  Yes, CPS did ignore a therapist's report, even though they are usually given more weight.

[moonfirefaery]

Originally Posted by lovingmommyhood 

If someone says you're concealing drugs on your person, in an unknown location should you be forcibly strip searched "just in case"? I mean, if you're innocent, who cares? It's the same logic. No warrant, no search. Citizens need to defend their rights. 
 

No one is advocating that. Certainly not me. If I weren't carrying, I'd consent to the search. I have the right to waive my rights, too. It wouldn't be a gamble, considering I'm not doing anything illegal. It'd be the same if CPS came into my home. They'd find very little to "get me for" and I don't believe CPS takes children simply because the parents didn't sweep three times that day.

Originally Posted by lovingmommyhood 

As would a lot of people, but it should not be a situation where a person says "Bring a warrant" so they are automatically red flagged and guilty. 

If they have asked you to allow a search, you've already been red flagged, and they already think you may be guilty--or they wouldn't have asked. They don't automatically write you down as guilty if you tell them to bring a warrant. They just go get the warrant.

[moonfirefaery]

I mean honestly, if the police showed up here and said "we've gotten a complaint that you're running a meth lab... can we come in and look around and make sure you're not?" There is no way in he!! I would allow them in, even though I am 10000% sure there is no illegal drug activity going on here, especially a meth lab lol . I fully intend on using the constitutional rights our forefathers ensured for all citizens of this country, even when I'm innocent. To me, it's more important for the innocent to exercise their rights. It's important for the people who truly "have nothing to hide" to exercise their rights so we can actually retain some of them.

I choose to exercise my rights when it benefits me. In the situation above, there is no meth lab... so they can come right in. It benefits me to have them see that there is no meth lab--and leave me alone.

[Tumble Bumbles]

They just go get the warrant 

It's not that simple. I don't think people understand how difficult it is to obtain a warrant in the absence of any evidence -- and if they do have evidence, even better to wait for a warrant because a warrant is very detailed and covers specific areas for specific things.

For example's sake: Say there was alleged evidence of a meth lab and the police obtained a warrant to search only for items X, Y, Z that were evidence of ingredients used commonly to make meth. They were only specifically allowed to search say, the back closet of the back bedroom. Now, if they walked in and saw a glass pipe on a countertop that had marijuana still in it, they legally could not confiscate that or use it to build their case in any way... really! Now, I doubt a judge would issue a warrant that specific (it would likely say something like "any known drug paraphernalia in plain view or concealed in back closet")  or something similar -- but you get the point.

Someone wandering through your home at your allowance has basically free reign to comment on whatever they see, whatever they "assess" and whatever they deem necessary to help build a case. If a warrant were so easy to obtain, don't you think they'd just show up with one in the first place to avoid any potential hassle?

Kythe, I understand -- so if the child were living with the mom on weekdays, the mom couldn't petition the court for supervised visits only (or none at all) using the therapist's testimony and notes taken during therapy sessions as well as the daughter's testimony? You mean a judge in a custody case would say "oh no, the actual child, mother, and therapist are all saying the same thing but I'm not changing the custody order at all?" If so, that's some kind of crazy situation that me allowing CPS into my home without a warrant would be very unlikely to help.

[moonfirefaery]

Some time later, a case appears in the news where a child was killed by their parents, and it is revealed in the investigation that CPS had once been involved but ignored the case.  Then there is a public outcry about why they aren't more efficient at removing children from poor environments.  This seems to happen frequently, if you watch the news.

Kythe, I believe we can protect children without impeding upon the rights of parents. Bust for the record, in most of these "public outcry" situations, CPS had been out multiple times and failed to intervene--not just once.

You want to stand up for your rights? Do it. No one's telling you not to. But CPS has the right to ASK you if they can search you...and if you deny them... they will go get a warrant and search you anyway. The end result is the same, but you've stood up for your principals. For me, immediate exoneration from such allegations is more important that protecting my due process--which I don't believe is in any danger.

[moonfirefaery]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tumble Bumbles 

It's not that simple. I don't think people understand how difficult it is to obtain a warrant in the absence of any evidence -- and if you they do have evidence, even better to wait for a warrant because a warrant is very detailed and covers specific areas for specific things.

Yes a warrant is detailed and covers specific things, though it can be a very broad warrant that allows just about everything. It is difficult to obtain a warrant without evidence. However, I doubt there are many judges who would refuse a search warrant if there was any indication whatsoever that a child was being harmed, and a search could put those concerns to rest.

[Tumble Bumbles]

That's the point though, they cannot just "go out and get a warrant anyway". That's one of the biggest shams that people believe.

[Tumble Bumbles]

A warrant can only be issued if there is evidence or probable cause. Now, I can see where a warrant would be more easily able to be obtained if a mandated reporter reported evidence of abuse (such as seeing bruises or whatever) ... but some random neighbor calling when you've done nothing wrong (which really is what the thread is about -- it's not about an actual case of abuse, neglect, or illegal activity) a warrant would be very difficult to obtain in the absense of any evidence or probable cause... in which case, no way I would allow them in my home willingly.

If they want to burden the system even more by jumping through whatever hoops to convince a judge to sign a warrant with absolutely no evidence or probable cause, hey, that's their business -- they will find the same thing regardless (which is nothing).However, with a warrant, the burden was on them to prove guilt -- not on me to prove my innocence -- which are two very different sides of the same coin to be, imo.

[moonfirefaery]

Given my experiences with CPS, I don't think it's that difficult for them to obtain a search warrant to followup on a report of abuse or neglect. If you think telling them to bring a warrant will help you, make them go away, etc., more power to you.

[Tumble Bumbles]

I wouldn't "tell" someone to bring a warrant. I would politely decline them entry into my home. I would ask them to read me the complaint (which is my legal right, however who actually complained doesn't have to be revealed) and I would ask them to leave their card and tell them I would contact their office at my earliest convenience.

If you honestly believe they can then go to a judge and say, "Mrs. Tumbles politely declined me entry into the home and respectfully asked for my card after hearing the complaint. She communicated that will be contacting our office soon... SHE'S GUILTY YOU NEED TO SIGN AN ORDER NOW!!" ... then more power to you. Not gonna happen. I'm not saying they wouldn't try to contact me again (they probably would), but in the absence of evidence, a warrant can't be obtained because a worker was insulted that you didn't let them in. If there is evidence, yes, they can obtain a warrant -- but in my case (since I'm not abusive or neglectful in any way, shape, or form) there wouldn't be -- so there's no reason for them to be given carte blanche access to my home or my children -- and if in the absence of any evidence or probable cause, they even wanted access to my home or children -- then the only person needing "protection" is myself and family. The only way to ensure any measure of that, is to exercise my legal rights.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Yes a warrant is detailed and covers specific things, though it can be a very broad warrant that allows just about everything. It is difficult to obtain a warrant without evidence. However, I doubt there are many judges who would refuse a search warrant if there was any indication whatsoever that a child was being harmed, and a search could put those concerns to rest.

No, warrants cannot be written such that a person has the authority to look at everything.  The warrant has to specify what is being looked for, and then it must specify what needs to be searched to find it.  If an officer is looking for weed, then yeah they can look pretty much everywhere.  If they're looking for a dead body, they can only look where a dead body would be found (a closet for example, NOT a little itty bitty tiny jewelry box). 

CPS doesn't always investigate actual claims though - I was reported for "not responding when ds cried" (literally, that was the report made), and it was followed up on.  My ds was perfectly healthy, had never had so much as a diaper rash, ear infection, or ANYTHING wrong with him, and the ped called cps b/c my ex's mother told him that I didn't respond to his crying.  Ummm.....cause THATS worth investigating (especially when a child is COMPLETELY healthy with not a single scratch on him whatsoever)!

[although I should thank her someday for calling, it ended up helping me get sole custody, and made my ex look VERY bad]

[sosurreal09]

I agree that I would decline them entry, respectfully, and ask for their card to set up an appointment. I would call them right away and hopefully exonerate myself at the meeting.

It is too scary to me that the pile of laundry in my room could be reason to take my child...or the dishes...come on I am a SAHM to an 18 m/o nursling I have NO time to clean, and even if I do I would rather spend it having quality time with my DD or my DH. Family comes before cleaning in my eyes. It certainly is not dirty in here but right now I have clean clothes that need to be folded on my kitchen floor (b/c that's where the washer/dryer is) and I have even more upstairs (b/c I have no time to fold clothes and no dresser to put them in!). We are saving up for a bed with drawers, which brings up another thing we have a mattress on the floor (which a lot of co-sleepers do)

I think all of this is fine and I am laid back about it but DCF I am sure would not agree. I can't spend my whole life cleaning my house like a maniac and buying furniture we can not yet afford b/c DCF may show up and take my kid. I already have a friend who lives like that b/c she was threatened by them before and ALL she does is clean and yell about messes. Her DD is 22 m/o and she will play with a toy and the second she puts it down her mom comes and swoops it up and puts it away. The LO is miserable and the mom is miserable, no one can play, no one is happy, and yes my friend is completely paranoid about DCF showing up and lives in fear over it. Her case is closed btw, but she still lives like that. It is not healthy at all. Every time she comes to my place it's like OMG DCF would take your LO in 2 seconds! You need to do x,y,z and blah blah blah. My home is not dangerous. my LO is happy healthy and thriving in a very loving and attached family, she eats very healthily and is very advanced for her age, yet DCF would look at my messy home and possibly freak out (very probable) b/c I never seem to have the energy to properly put everything somewhere...well that sucks

[insidevoice]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

I think all of this is fine and I am laid back about it but DCF I am sure would not agree. I can't spend my whole life cleaning my house like a maniac and buying furniture we can not yet afford b/c DCF may show up and take my kid. I already have a friend who lives like that b/c she was threatened by them before and ALL she does is clean and yell about messes. Her DD is 22 m/o and she will play with a toy and the second she puts it down her mom comes and swoops it up and puts it away. The LO is miserable and the mom is miserable, no one can play, no one is happy, and yes my friend is completely paranoid about DCF showing up and lives in fear over it. Her case is closed btw, but she still lives like that. It is not healthy at all. Every time she comes to my place it's like OMG DCF would take your LO in 2 seconds! You need to do x,y,z and blah blah blah. My home is not dangerous. my LO is happy healthy and thriving in a very loving and attached family, she eats very healthily and is very advanced for her age, yet DCF would look at my messy home and possibly freak out (very probable) b/c I never seem to have the energy to properly put everything somewhere...well that sucks

To demonstrate this on a very personal level- I debated posting this before but didn't want to seem to be using scare tactics or to make this too personal.. 

After my ex filed a report against me, I went through the same thing your friend did.  I still can't stand to have anything out of order.  Yes, ultimately it was closed, and the fact that he had maliciously filed a spurious report was used against him so I have sole custody, but  it was awful.  The CPS worker used a camera to document 'animal feces' on my couch.  It was a couple plastic hamburgers from DDs play kitchen set.  I had to take them into court to show them to the judge to prove my point, and the CPS worker STILL claimed I was lying.  The judge, happily, saw through her.  They also claimed that they had found her with lice- patently untrue, and only because I jumped through hoops left right and center could I disprove this claim.  Without connections to a few entymologists I wouldn't have had recourse.  Again, the judge was appalled when he saw the information I used to back up my claim. My favorite complaint that the CPS worker lodged was that there were copious quantities of drugs visible on the living room carpet.  In that case, I had just sprinkled a box of that powdered carpet freshener throughout the house and was in the middle of vacuuming when they knocked at the door.  The police officer there even argued on my behalf at the time, but the CPS worker said she was noting it because I was just covering up the drugs that must have been there.  The officer testified on my behalf. 

When I didn't want to sign a piece of paper saying that she could send my child anywhere she wanted to, I was threatened that if I didn't I would never see her again.  I stuck to my guns on that one, and she was only released to kinship care for that short while, but it was still horrifying.  Then, when they did take her, they praised me for having such a polite and happy child, and for being so calm and collected to make everything feel safe for her. 

It was horrifying.  I should have made them request a warrant, but I figured- Well, I have nothing to hide, they can come right in and see that! There was nothing to hide, and the CPS worker fabricated a report.  Had she shown up without a police officer present I would not have had a chance to refute the claims.  Because he documented everything himself, we were able to show his photos to the judge.  The only things she photographed were shot in such a way as to appear dirty or dangerous (for example the plastic hamburgers she claimed were animal feces, or a patch of white powder on the carpet).  The officer's photos showed the whole room, and the judge was clearly very angry with the CPS worker for her deceptive tactics. 

It took forever to sort my life back out, and while we did manage to protect my child from the trauma, I had to deal with horrible flashbacks whenever someone was at the door, and I still live in fear and will sacrifice playtime for a few minutes to maintain a stepford-wife-esque level of clean in our home.   Also, since I work in human services, I have to explain a lot, and background checks show that I have been investigated- that alone prevents me from a few job offers.  A closed case found in your favor can still show up. 
 

[Tumble Bumbles]

Wow, insidevoice, that's terrible :( I'm so sorry that happened to you. 

[moonfirefaery]

I think some of this fear of CPS is completely unnecessary.

CPS doesn't take children away because you have a single pile of laundry. They take them because you have dirty laundry strewn all over your house in heaps. There are CPS workers who will lie, often because they believe what they are saying or at least believe they're doing the right thing because they've judged you. But they can't take them simply because you have a single pile of laundry or a sinkful of dirty dishes. They take them when the garbage hasn't been taken out in a week and has maggots in it. Or when the dishes have taken over the entire kitchen, or a bath tub. I worry that my house isn't clean enough for other people's standards...but I keep it clean enough that I don't worry CPS will intervene.

CPS doesn't go to the judge and say "She declined a search politely; she must be guilty!" They explain the report they received, reveal any evidence they might have, and then the judge makes a decision as to whether or not a search is necessary to ensure that the children are safe. Maybe he will decline the warrant, and then you're safe. He probably won't, if there's any indication whatsoever that the children are not safe, and then you're going to be searched. Decline if you want to, but if they do have a good reason, they're going to get in--and yes, warrants can be general enough that they are allowed to inspect anything in your house that has to do with the care and living conditions of your children.

[Tumble Bumbles]

Edited. 

Edited by Tumble Bumbles - 4/10/11 at 4:51pm

[insidevoice]

In my case, this is *exactly* the sort of reason they took my daughter.  It was broken and horrific and a complete slap in the face to someone who truly believed in the system working for children.  I had one load of clean laundry not yet put away.  ONE. It was even folded.  The sink was completely clean and any dirty dishes were being washed in the dishwasher, the rest of the dishes were clean and put away.   You are right in that they lie because they have judged you, but you are wrong to think that if you aren't lax or behind nothing will happen to you.  

I now live in a different county, and have very little fear of CPS. The one CPS worker is a friend of mine and knows my kids well.  She is often in my home for social visits.  I know her kids and have been in her home which is very much  typical busy family home with stuff here and there and a bunch of laundry yet to be done. She's a single working mom, and her home shows that she's sometimes to busy to be a full time maid. She's also an ethical person.  

It just happened that the person who came to my home was NOT an ethical person. Those exist in every vocation, and sometimes people do abuse their power.  I know the woman who  had been in charge of my case left the field and decided to work in corrections instead.  Maybe that's a better fit for her.  She certainly shouldn't be allowed to work in the field she had been working in. 

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery 

I think some of this fear of CPS is completely unnecessary.

CPS doesn't take children away because you have a single pile of laundry. They take them because you have dirty laundry strewn all over your house in heaps. There are CPS workers who will lie, often because they believe what they are saying or at least believe they're doing the right thing because they've judged you. But they can't take them simply because you have a single pile of laundry or a sinkful of dirty dishes. They take them when the garbage hasn't been taken out in a week and has maggots in it. Or when the dishes have taken over the entire kitchen, or a bath tub. I worry that my house isn't clean enough for other people's standards...but I keep it clean enough that I don't worry CPS will intervene.

[Tumble Bumbles]

Edited.

Edited by Tumble Bumbles - 4/10/11 at 4:51pm