got a letter from cps, now what? - Page 8

[moonfirefaery]

I'm not being idealistic; I'm being realistic. I don't think there are enough people from CPS out to get me that I should be worried. I have never encountered more than minor opposition to my choices and certainly not enough to have any fear of persecution.

scottishmommy - Yes, my children have their own beds; no, I don't have to fight my pediatrician. Yes, I have a legally protected right to my birth choices. CPS doesn't take children because there are clothes in the washer & dryer or poops in the litter box or a plate on the table, but generally, no. I don't have any pests in my home, just a lazy old dog. I'm capable of standing my ground and explaining my decisions.

Honestly, I AM the typical parent to most people. They are usually surprised when they find out I had a UC, or cosleep, or am anti-circ. And when I explain myself, I rarely encounter any judgement. Maybe I am just living a charmed life but I really doubt it. I don't get much flack for my lifestyle at all.

[moonfirefaery]

I sure would like to see some proof, in legal print, that CPS has the right to stay in my home, against my will, simply because I voluntarily let them in. It is my home; if you are there by my consent, I have the right to revoke my consent and let you leave, unless you have a warrant.

Moreover, I have no idea what else might have been going on in those situations you are describing. There could have been abuse, neglect, or other issues that you may be unaware of. I doubt that CPS builds a case based on "mom left a dish on the table" and "baby crawls into bed with mommy in the middle of the night." I also don't hold those experiences as typical and standard.

[ElizabethE]

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery 

I'm not being idealistic; I'm being realistic. I don't think there are enough people from CPS out to get me that I should be worried. It doesn't have to be enough people, sometimes all it takes is one. I have never encountered more than minor opposition to my choices and certainly not enough to have any fear of persecution. I'm kind of a take charge ball buster myself, so usually I don't find anybody who's a match for me, either... but, no fear of persecution? Why the hell not? :) People must be a lot nicer where you're at.

scottishmommy - Yes, my children have their own beds; no, I don't have to fight my pediatrician. Yes, I have a legally protected right to my birth choices. CPS doesn't take children because there are clothes in the washer & dryer or poops in the litter box or a plate on the table, but generally, no. I don't have any pests in my home, just a lazy old dog. I'm capable of standing my ground and explaining my decisions.

Honestly, I AM the typical parent to most people. I don't know if any of us here are that. They are usually surprised when they find out I had a UC, or cosleep, or am anti-circ. And when I explain myself, I rarely encounter any judgement. Maybe I am just living a charmed life but I really doubt it. I don't get much flack for my lifestyle at all.

People usually don't give me flack because they can sense I would put the smackdown on them. But, I still have a healthy fear of authority even IF I exude it myself. That's why I try to keep respectful and play by the rules, and that suits me just fine, usually. So far, so good?
 

[Tumble Bumbles]

Yes, because it would cause no "red flags" whatsoever to invite CPS into your home, then when they ask a question you don't like or try to look somewhere you haven't approved of, to quickly usher them out of your house and insist they get a warrant

I just prefer to bypass that all together (because chances are they would ask a question I felt I didn't have to answer to want to look in a place I felt too personal) and actually exercise the rights I wish to keep.

I guess if you ever encounter that situation (and I wouldn't wish that on any loving, involved parent), you can feel free to roll the dice and allow someone to enter your home without cause or warrant, waiving your rights and allowing them to conduct an investigation with no checks and balances. That's totally your right, to waive your rights -- because even if they leave in 15 minutes and eventually "close the case", make no mistake that once they have entered your home they are conducting an investigation. If one is totally okay with one party having all the allowances while another party (you) have waived your rights... go for it, but I can tell you there is not one lawyer worth a roll of quarters who would advise someone agree to a search or interviews with children without a warrant... innocent or not.

I said in my other reply I don't know how CPS specifically is mandated in that regard, but with the police -- if you invite them into your home without a warrant, you cannot just "tell" them to leave and get one when you're done talkin'. You would then be "impeding an investigation" (or they could envoke that, rather) and they leave when they're good and ready. If you're 100% certain CPS isn't entitled to work within the same framework -- feel free to invite them in without a warrant, then tell them to leave if they (as you say) "cross the line" -- but by that time, they will have had enough evidence (because you've let them in then refused to cooperate, which makes no sense) to obtain a warrant.

If people would like to use the constitution as no more than toilet tissue, that's their business... I prefer to actually use the rights contained therein to my benefit, as intended when it was written.

[sosurreal09]

How is it going OP?

[Tumble Bumbles]

Yeah let's get back to the OP -- In her OP she says the letter said:

A report has been received requesting that we complete an assesment regarding your family and your new baby. Please contact me as soon as possible 

(bolding mine)

Basically it says, someone called telling us we should look into you (no facts or evidence). Please contact us. That is zero evidence, zero. That's the agency letting the OP know someone called them. They have no reason to assess the family, no evidence to warrant assessment, no actual warrant (because of no evidence) to actually look into them. They likely sent a letter so no one could say they "didn't do anything".

In that case I would have had a lawyer draft a letter to the agency letting them know we are honoring their request that we contact the agency and wish to know the details of the actual complaint (which is the legal right of the accused, though they don't have to reveal who actually complained). Depending on the nature of the complaint, the lawyer would proceed from there. Seeing as it said "new baby" in the letter, it's likley about the UC -- which is not illegal. CPS is only there to investigate and intervene in cases of abuse and neglect, which are illegal practices,

What's the case here and why exactly should the OP allow these people in her home since she has done nothing illegal?

[eclipse]

As someone who was removed from my home as a child by CPS for bogus reasons, I would never let CPS in my house without a warrant. I was 8 years old, but I still remember the. . .well, interrogation I got and how the SW interviewing me tried to trip me up and get me to say things that weren't true and seemed to be deliberately misinterpreting things I was saying. Thankfully, I was only away from home for a week or so, but it was still one of the most traumatic experiences of my life, up there with being raped when I was in college. Not all CPS workers are bad people (in fact, most of them aren't and I don't even think the ones involved in my case were bad people, but some were certainly misinformed and misguided), but the risks are too high for me to just assume that the person who shows up at my door is rational.

I don't live in the US anymore and, sadly, there are children living in such bad circumstances here that I doubt anyone would worry at all about a baby being born at home.

[tea_time]

Originally Posted by Jynuine 

The point is that they are there to build a case- not to exonerate you. You are technically innocent (legally) until you allow them into your home to gather whatever proof they can find to make you guilty- but this does not mean you are not already guilty in their mind. All it takes is anything they might disagree with in your parenting style or how you look or even their personality style. Have you ever read the commentary from readers on online news articles referring to children's issues? People are bloodthirsty. Without having any details of a case they will slit the throat of anyone even under scrutiny of a child abuse organization. Workers can be the same way going on a report, depending on the person.

I'm not saying all CPS workers are out to get you.

Bolding mine, and I did remove a lot of your post to keep this one shorter. I agreed with pretty much everything you wrote, except that one part.  There may be workers looking to "build a case" but when I worked in CPS I was doing the opposite.  I wanted very much (and was mandated) to show that the child/family did not need interventions, or if they did that they be the least restrictive as possible.  I only "built my case" as you say once it was determined that there was in fact abuse.  And at that time I was also building a strengths-based case for the parent/family to work at getting things back to where CPS wasn't involved.  Clearly in your experience that did not happen as you had what appears to be HORRIFIC workers who badly used their "power" and worked in a corrupt at worst or negligent at best system.  I am sorry for the pain you experienced (and your children).  Stories like yours are so horrible to hear!  
 

[moonfirefaery]

They may not be there to exonerate me, but I'd be letting them in to exonerate myself--because they're not going to find anything in this house.

And I doubt asking them to leave if they get too ridiculous with their search would raise any more suspicious red flags than flat out denying them entry altogether :P

[Tumble Bumbles]

This has become a circular (and tiresome) conversation. There is absolutely nothing to find in my home either. That isnt, and has never been, the point.

The point is, you're totally comfortable waiving your rights to allow a government agency free reign over your home and children for as long as necessary to "prove" your innocence. I am equally as innocent, only I would choose to actually exercise my right to due process in order that said government agency actually earn the salaries my tax dollars are paying -- putting the burden on them to prove my alleged "guilt" rather than on "me", an innocent person, to prove my innocence. That's how it works in the US. When you're on trial (and CPS knocking on your door is a bit like that, because they wouldn't be there without having an accusation of sorts) the burden is on the accuser to prove your guilt, not the other way around.

You're absolutely within your rights to waive your rights and I hope if it ever came down to it you get a Mary Poppins-esque worker who floats through your home on a cloud with a heart of gold seeing only the wonderful and caring mother I'm sure you are and nothing more. If that's not the case though, I hope your confidence in the agency and in the system is enough to protect yourself and your children -- because you certainly won't have the rights you've waived.

[IncaMama]

tumble bumbles: WORD.

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery 

They may not be there to exonerate me, but I'd be letting them in to exonerate myself--because they're not going to find anything in this house.

And I doubt asking them to leave if they get too ridiculous with their search would raise any more suspicious red flags than flat out denying them entry altogether :P

I disagree with your second sentence.  If you let someone into your home to begin an investigation and then suddenly stop answering questions once they get to be what you deem "ridiculous" and ask them to leave, you don't think that will raise red flags?  That you're OK with them looking everywhere except that one back bedroom, for example.  That points to MORE questions, imo.  Plus - once you've let them in, they've got free reign.  They can use anything they see in your home against you, spinning things however they see fit.  And then it just becomes your word against theirs - which is a dangerous place to be.

[moonfirefaery]

I wouldn't set conditions on where they could go, just what they are allowed to say to my children -- and draw the line at rummaging through my posessions.

I'm still waiting on proof that once I voluntarily let them in, I no longer have the right to ask them to leave MY home, despite their lack of a warrant.

I also don't understand why you take issue with refusing entry raising red flags and suspicion, then tell me not to allow entry then revoke it if they're too invasive because it may raise red flags and suspicion. I think I at least come off more cooperative this way than not at all.

[Just1More]

After you have let them in, how will you make them leave?

I think it's way less about looking cooperative, or whatever, and following the law. 

It's sort of like a rental agreement.  You can engage in a verbal agreement with your friend and allow them to rent a house you own.  But, what are you going to do when they trash it and won't leave and won't pay?  You are out a lot at the point, including a friendship.  Instead, it is always better to agree ahead of time what the rules are, and get it in writing.  That ensures EVERYONE is happy at the end of the agreement. 

And if that's a good idea with a friend, wouldn't you want the same thing with the government? 

I can't imagine deliberately NOT following the law and hoping it would be okay because I was cooperative. 

No, I think I'd want the law on my side, and I think I would want to follow it to the letter. 
 

Anything else would just be asking for trouble.

[Tumble Bumbles]

I've said this like three times already but I'll go ahead and repeat myself since I have a few minutes to kill.

I said I'm not certain how CPS is mandated in this specific regard, but I do know that if you invite a police officer into your home without a warrant, they are then "conducting an investigation", you have waived your rights to a warrant (during that specific visit) and they DO NOT have to leave upon your request. By allowing them in you have agreed to allow them to conduct an investigation unimpeded (dangerous!!) and to make assessments based on thier investigation -- asking them to leave when you begin to feel they've "crossed the line" (your quote) could be construed as 'impeding an investigation' and you can actually be arrested for doing so. You'd better make sure CPS doesn't operate under the same conditions (of course they can't personally arrest you). I'm not certain whether their authority to investigate cases of abuse/neglect fall under similar guidelines but I guess if it ever happened you could just roll the dice and hope they don't do anything to "cross the line" or ask your kids any questions you didn't feel they should have to answer.

[Tumble Bumbles]

It's the same way that when you're pulled over, you are technically being detained until they complete the 'investigation' of whatever they've pulled you over for. If they ask to search your car, and you agree... but then they go to open the glovebox, you can't say, "oh no, I'm not comfortable with the glovebox, please get a warrant now." You've already agreed to waive your right to a warrant and to cooperate with the investigation. Again (so it doesn't get ignored yet again)... I'm not certain if CPS is mandated in this fashion (regarding investigations) but I really wouldn't want to roll the dice on it and just 'hope' that I was right in thinking I could ask anyone to leave at any time during an investigation.

[sosurreal09]

Moonfire- I think you are having TOO much faith in the system. There is nothing wrong with utilizing your rights and being cautious. I would rather be safe than sorry when it comes to my family. A lot of people say "well they took my LO for 2 days and then we were fine ect" If my LO was taken for 2 days she would have a heart attack! She's only 18 m/o nursing 7+ times a day and if I leave her more than 2 hrs she just screams and screams and that's just with her dad! I can not leave her with anyone other than her father. So if I let CPS in my house and give them free reign to do what they want I am sure they could find something that "is not safe" and remove her for a couple days anyway...and I am sure I could probably get her back, but I can't even risk any of that. I would rather just not let them in and have a meeting with them at their office and exonerate myself there.

Sure I may get a worker who thinks we are fine, but like I said previously we seem to be against the grain in our life and parenting styles. We don't do anything illegal and we provide everything we and our DD needs but I get enough of an earful from family/friends about us depriving our DD of things or how it's not healthy he's in our bed, still BFing, whatever. I think a lot of people think this way in this country. If CPS came into my home who is to say they wouldn't jump to conclusions or disagree with my parenting choices and make a case of it?

[moonfirefaery]

I don't assume that I would need to make them leave; I assume that giving consent to entry doesn't give consent to them doing anything they want and staying as long as they want without a warrant, and I assume that when asked to leave, they would do so.

Unless, of course, it is true that they have the right not to... and again, would love to see proof of that. Because if they don't have that right... I can revoke it and even call the police to have them removed since they are in my home with my consent revoked and no warrant.

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery 

I don't assume that I would need to make them leave; I assume that giving consent to entry doesn't give consent to them doing anything they want and staying as long as they want without a warrant, and I assume that when asked to leave, they would do so.

Unless, of course, it is true that they have the right not to... and again, would love to see proof of that. Because if they don't have that right... I can revoke it and even call the police to have them removed since they are in my home with my consent revoked and no warrant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_searches

Nor are they required to conduct a search in a way that gives the individual an opportunity to revoke consent, as determined in United States v. Dominguez, where the court rejected the argument that “officials must conduct all searches in plain view of the suspect, and in a manner slowly enough that he may withdraw or delimit his consent at any time during the search.”

If consent is revoked, the officer or officers performing the search are required to immediately stop searching. However, the right to revoke consent is not recognized in two cases: airport passenger screening and prison visitation.

However, the revocation of consent must clearly be a statement revoking consent: an expression of impatience or dislike is not sufficient to terminate consent.

[scottishmommy]

Originally Posted by moonfirefaery 

I don't assume that I would need to make them leave; I assume that giving consent to entry doesn't give consent to them doing anything they want and staying as long as they want without a warrant, and I assume that when asked to leave, they would do so.

Unless, of course, it is true that they have the right not to... and again, would love to see proof of that. Because if they don't have that right... I can revoke it and even call the police to have them removed since they are in my home with my consent revoked and no warrant.

I don't understand why it would be preferrable to allow someone into your house and then kick them out if they go through your belongings. In the first place, they ARE going to go through your belongings. Why else would they enter your home? Second of all, once they are in they can exaggerate and say that a cat litter box with poop in it is "a filthy home with feces lying around" or a dirty plate in your dining room is "rotting food in eating area". If you don't let them enter in the first place they can't build a case against you. And frankly Chances are they won't be able to get a warrant either, because they need probable cause for that. Seriously, lots of people have been burned by CPS including a lot of mamas who post on MDC. Now maybe they are all liars and crackheads and live in filthy conditions and abuse their children. Who knows? I'm also sure that most CPS workers are actually very good people who are very reasonable. But you never know. Honestly, I am not scared of CPS. I live in Chicago where the authorities pretty much leave you alone unless you kill someone. People don't even report purse snatching or car break ins here. They have their hands full in this city. But still I wouldn't let a cop or a CPS caseworker into my home without a warrant.